As 2013 Approaches so Does the growing choices in the Luxury Crossover Market

Coincidentally, I was driving behind an RX the other day and I thought to myself, God what an ugly SUV. It was a previous generation. The clear tail lights are just plain ugly. All clear tail lights are ugly and should be banned. And now with that front/grille in the new one trying to mimic the Audi is ugly. Also the LED's in the headlights are ugly. Come up with something else.
What I like about BMW is that they did not copy those LEDs like all brands are doing. LEDs look nice in Audis and VWs.

^ that looks (and feels) significantly higher quality than an MDX. Sure, it's a complete snoozefest to drive, but it does have its own set of buyers. It outsells it's competition month and month.

Originally Posted by NoI4plz

-See above

You're confusing the Audi group (Audi, Lamborghini, Ducati) with VAG group (all the brands)

Comparing the Touareg's hybrid system to the SHAWD hybrid system is poor because one is a full mechnanical system, whereas the Acura system is essentially FWD with electric motors on the back wheels. (Lexus and Toyota do this exact same thing in the RX450h and Highlander Hybrid).

Originally Posted by NoI4plz

I agree with BMW keeping up with the tech times.

However I seem to be fearing the fact, that BMW has reached a kind of standstill in their engine department. Its not to say they are horrible, since their volume numbers clearly show that they have a winning formula.
.

I have to disagree with you on this. If you said powertrains (includes AWD systems), I would have agreed.

Year after year, BMW's engines are award winning and they lead their respective segments in terms of fuel economy, while still having top of class performance. N55 and N20 are prime examples of that. Let's not forget the F10 M5's nuke under the hood

Everyone I talk to tells me that BMW's diesels are class leading.

Only thing they seem to be missing is good hybrids, which I couldn't care less about. If I'm buying a hybrid, it's gonna be Japanese. Diesel? German

Another thing is torque vectoring. Audi does it. Why not BMW in all their models?

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Another thing is torque vectoring. Audi does it. Why not BMW in all their models?

It's annoying that they don't, the ZF vector drive system should at least be an option instead of forcing you to get an X5M if you want it, hopefully that will be rectified with the F15. They have a system that's better then Acura's current SH-AWD since it works off throttle but they keep it to the M and the "sporty" X6.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

^ that looks (and feels) significantly higher quality than an MDX. Sure, it's a complete snoozefest to drive, but it does have its own set of buyers. It outsells it's competition month and month.

It's the shift knob that attracts those buyers.

Originally Posted by NoI4plz

Update 1:

So far the top 3 choices picked by the Fest has been

1) BMW X5
2) Porsche Cayenne
3) Acura MDX

Based on BMW's current powertrain portofolio, the predictions for the X5 are: N55, N67, N63. So we can somewhat conclude that the X5 will offer only petroleum based engine offerings.

However currently the Cayenne (T-egg) offers a hybrid system, and it is expected the MDX should launch with a hybrid SH-AWD system, similar to that of the RLX.

If you have tested the AUDI hybrid systems, how do they currently weight in. Has Porsche's translated into driving perfection with the hybrid system?

Do you expect the SH-AWD hybrid to perform equally or almost equally to the Audi group system

I agree with you on most, EXCEPT that I think that the X5 M50d will be a reality. I think that the N67 will be the top line X5 and the M50d will be the new "M" vehicle because of the technology involved with the engine,,,also 4.7 to 100kn is not too bad considering the fuel milage which would be better that the N67. Also on some of the tests with the new X5 being in camo,,,I noticed a blister or raised portion on the hood,,,and if you look at the European X5 M50d,,you would see the same thing....Hey maybe I'm all wrong,,,but I would step up to the M50d if offered..!!

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Another thing is torque vectoring. Audi does it. Why not BMW in all their models?

BMW does not even offer it as an option on X5. Yet, it is an option on X3 by using their brakes. Unlike the Audi variant, it is an electronic braking system for X3.

BMW X5M does have it.

Torque vectoring seems more like a more advanced variant of traction control. The BMW's brake implementation should be free and be part of traction control system rather than a separate charge item as they did for X3. I suspect that most of the dynamic handling package valuation has more to do with the dynamic damper control. (I base that off comparing price delta between damper control in 5 series vs. X3. )

As for the rest of the discussion, I am wait an see attitude regarding Acura and what they do with MDX and Hybrid. Japanese are more interested in hybrid system from than turbo based direct injection engine.

I pinning more of my hope in Audi Q7 in coming up with a worthy competitor that is priced reasonable unlike their Porsche cousin. Audi is a company vested in getting more sporty and luxurious as the same time. Audi Q7 vs BMW X5 is ready for round 2.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

You're confusing the Audi group (Audi, Lamborghini, Ducati) with VAG group (all the brands)

Comparing the Touareg's hybrid system to the SHAWD hybrid system is poor because one is a full mechnanical system, whereas the Acura system is essentially FWD with electric motors on the back wheels. (Lexus and Toyota do this exact same thing in the RX450h and Highlander Hybrid).

That is true of the SH-SH-AWD system that is upcoming in the RLX and the MDX, but the current SH-AWD does not have motors driving any wheels. It is a mechanical differential that will over drive either rear wheel.

It is FWD biased though. I don't recall the the exact percentage, but the torque distribution was something like 60/40 front/rear during normal driving, with the ability to shift as much as 100% in either direction depending on traction needs.

I believe with RWD biased systems like those on the BMW are the other way around.

*** edit ***

I just reread your post and I see you qualified it as the Hybrid SH-AWD system.

Originally Posted by henrycyao

I pinning more of my hope in Audi Q7 in coming up with a worthy competitor that is priced reasonable unlike their Porsche cousin. Audi is a company vested in getting more sporty and luxurious as the same time. Audi Q7 vs BMW X5 is ready for round 2.

Yup, I'm awaiting the new Q7 and X5. I really enjoyed my old Q7, but if the rumors are true, next one should be significantly lighter. And Audi seems to be getting everything right these days. If somehow I don't like the Q7 and the X5 drives like an X3, I'm out. Looks like I have to pony up for the Porsche

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

The RX is more spacious than the X3. They never make claims about it being a performance SUV. It is a fantastic DD for what it is. And the hybrid gets 30 mpg combined. No other SUV (not even the various diesel models) can match its economy.

The Prius V has comparable storage capacity, more seating room, and gets 10mpg better than the RX. I'm sorry, but you'll never convince me that the Lexus RX deserves to be in a conversation with the Q7, X5, or Cayenne.

Just because people buy them doesn't mean that they are worth a crap.

The 2013 ML has seats like a Bentley.

I'm surprised noone picked it.

Originally Posted by RockChips

The 2013 ML has seats like a Bentley.

I'm surprised noone picked it.

It rides a like a bentley too....an expensive brick.

However thats said I love the interior design elements in the ML. It takes to a whole another level of sophistication

Originally Posted by Chucktown

The Prius V has comparable storage capacity, more seating room, and gets 10mpg better than the RX. I'm sorry, but you'll never convince me that the Lexus RX deserves to be in a conversation with the Q7, X5, or Cayenne.

Just because people buy them doesn't mean that they are worth a crap.

The reason that the RX is in the pack is it does what its designed to be; A luxury Crossover. Now how Lexus, BMW, or any luxury manufacturer chooses to interpret and decide what a luxury crossover should be, is upto them. If reliable and efficient is what they decide a luxury crossover is, then by all means they are doing a great job. BMW considers a luxury crossover to be a pioneer in driving performance and technology, they too are doing a great job.

Update 2

The poll results show that the current top 3 are:

1) BMW X5
2) Porsche Cayenne
3) Tie between Acura MDX & Audi Q7

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

You're confusing the Audi group (Audi, Lamborghini, Ducati) with VAG group (all the brands)

Comparing the Touareg's hybrid system to the SHAWD hybrid system is poor because one is a full mechnanical system, whereas the Acura system is essentially FWD with electric motors on the back wheels. (Lexus and Toyota do this exact same thing in the RX450h and Highlander Hybrid).

I acknowledge that I mentioned audi group rather than VAG group.

However if you look at the powertrain and also alot of the components of say an Audi, Volkwagen, Porsche, the parts are so very similar. If you compare the Touareg;s hybrid system to the porsche, their essentially the same component, stamped with a different logo maybe painted differently. However in the combustion engine of the Touareg, a lot of the components stuck beneath the plastic engine covers are lifted straight off the Audi parts rack. So in my book although the group is formally known as VAG group, I really consider it the Audi group, since all of their parts are designed in house first at audi, modified later in the each of the brands. It`s what Audi is known for (i.e Lamborghini before and after the acquisition into VAG).

In regards to the mechanical hybrid vs the SH-AWD system. I look at it as the following. When your purchasing a hybrid, its just that a hybrid. Yes the way the define the hybrid system in a Touareg vs the Acura maybe be different, but essentially it gets hybrid sticker on its rear. In addition the Touareg's hybrid system has years of racing experience built into it, so I would expect it to be of a higher standard than say Prius/highlander/RX. The only system I feel comparable to the touareg's system is the active hybrid system offered by BMW (sadly not in the X5 as of late), and the upcoming SH-AWD system since it shows tons of promise in the way the system is designed. It also essentially lightens the vehicle weight, and you have three independent drive systems. This may turn out to be a blessing or a huge failure for Acura, but well see. Currently the only qualified system in order of performance pleasure are Porsche and then VW.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

I have to disagree with you on this. If you said powertrains (includes AWD systems), I would have agreed.

Year after year, BMW's engines are award winning and they lead their respective segments in terms of fuel economy, while still having top of class performance. N55 and N20 are prime examples of that. Let's not forget the F10 M5's nuke under the hood

Everyone I talk to tells me that BMW's diesels are class leading.

Only thing they seem to be missing is good hybrids, which I couldn't care less about. If I'm buying a hybrid, it's gonna be Japanese. Diesel? German

Another thing is torque vectoring. Audi does it. Why not BMW in all their models?

Again, BMW has an amazing engine formula. N55,N57, M57, N20, N63...etc. Even Jeremy the ape Clarkson commended BMW for making the M57 a beast of a motor.

However Diesel is great for low end grunt and towing. However at higher speeds, the power numbers falter.

A hybrid system, done with Traditional BMW engineering would probably nuke every single motor out their. The low end torque, coupled with instantaneous acceleration would be probably every BMW enthusiasts wheels of choice. It would also sit in line with BMW new efficient dynamics moniker. Plus at high speeds, you would experience a similar or better feeling when accelerating.

Just my 2 rupees lol

Originally Posted by NoI4plz

Again, BMW has an amazing engine formula. N55,N67, M57, N20, N63...etc. Even Jeremy the ape Clarkson commended BMW for making the M57 a beast of a motor.

I keep seeing the N67 mentioned, what engine is this, a new V8 diesel? Are they releasing a replacement for the M67?

Originally Posted by RockChips

The 2013 ML has seats like a Bentley.

I'm surprised noone picked it.

Those seats are apart of the designo package. The diamond stitching seems to only be available on the ML63 AMG. Can't find it on the regular models

And just built one. Bi-Xenons and leather are extra. WTF

Originally Posted by ND40oz

I keep seeing the N67 mentioned, what engine is this, a new V8 diesel? Are they releasing a replacement for the M67?

Sorry for the confusion. The m57 is the current 6 available in the x535d. The replacement for this engine is going to be the N57 currently available in Europe but added with the urea system for our Nad market

Originally Posted by NoI4plz

Sorry for the confusion. The m57 is the current 6 available in the x535d. The replacement for this engine is going to be the N57 currently available in Europe but added with the urea system for our Nad market

Yup, defined version of the EU-market 40d, which is N57 with 8speed auto

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Those seats are apart of the designo package. The diamond stitching seems to only be available on the ML63 AMG. Can't find it on the regular models

And just built one. Bi-Xenons and leather are extra. WTF

They have designo leather listed as optional, weird that it's not in the builder though.

http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/models/class-M

Wonder if you get standard Xenons and the adaptive are what are optional, don't understand not making regular leather standard and if you really want mb-tex, making it a no cost option.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Yup, defined version of the EU-market 40d, which is N57 with 8speed auto

I'd like to see them bring over the N57S. It would be interesting if they did make another V8 D though, something to compete with the Audi 4.2 TDI, although the N57S is pretty close already.

Originally Posted by ND40oz

I'd like to see them bring over the N57S. It would be interesting if they did make another V8 D though, something to compete with the Audi 4.2 TDI, although the N57S is pretty close already.

If I recall reading on this forum, the sulfur content in the US diesel is still too high. In addition, our emission standard for diesel is the same as gasoline. These two combined makes diesel engine with high output a mighty technical challenge vs. Europe. I have a feeling the new diesel is not going to break ground in hp and torque, but focuses more on efficiency and refinement (like idle noise.) I would like to see flatter torque curve though.

I believe we will see a hybrid system in next X5. I may not be the first year introduction. It may be a later year. That is because US's hybrid sells fairly well and we are very similar to the Chinese market. BMW did not just change partner from GM to Toyota for no reason on the hybrid system. Like it or not, synergy drive tweaked by BMW is will be here. It is just a matter of time.

Originally Posted by ND40oz

They have designo leather listed as optional, weird that it's not in the builder though.

http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/models/class-M

Wonder if you get standard Xenons and the adaptive are what are optional, don't understand not making regular leather standard and if you really want mb-tex, making it a no cost option.

Ah, I did not read the portion on the ML. The ML has active suspension standard

I am pretty sure BMW and Audi will have to put dynamic damper as standard now. They generally don't like to look bad against Mercedes in their option specification! F15 is going to have a nice comfortable ride system that is sporty as well.

I hope they do the same for the F15. However chances are they might not, and just offer DHP. However whatever the case is the new ML isn't too amazing with that setup (depending on what your driving suspension preferences are). Its still ideally suited for a comfort situation at all times. The only thing working against this new suspension on the ML is by going by the quality control standards Mercedes practices in their AL plant (soley based on the W164) the active setup seems nice until the warranty is up. Then it may be a curse more than a blessing.