Looks like i Finally discovered BMW V8 secret!!!

I think I may have been leaking past my compression rings in one of my adjusters, so I replaced a few of them while doing my valve stem seals this past summer. Unfortunately I didn't get around to actually taking an adjuster apart since I was trying to get it done in a weekend or so. I have a little bit of hesitation in mine as well (compared to quarterto8's car), so if anyone has an extra adjuster sitting around that I can pull apart, let me know and if it looks like I can rebuild whatever seals and stuff there are, I'll rebuild the ones on mine and let you know how it works.

I'd be curious to see the differences while running seen through INPA on a "bad" setup versus a new one.

I'm experiencing the same issues with my 2004 735i and have been pulling my hair out trying to get an answer. Realoem have my car listed as an N62. Great to find some like minded people ,as BMW keep saying nothing in fault but I know that it fairly quickly developed drastically reduced low end torque and a unresponsive tranny (the automotive type) which I previously thought was unrelated . Thanks for the insights and I'll Keep watching this post and contributing with any more info I can discover.
P.S.Is an "indy" a non dealership mechanic. Sorry for the dumb question but I am an Aussie.
Thanks from dirtdad

Originally Posted by dirtdad

. Sorry for the dumb question but I am an Aussie.
Thanks from dirtdad

LOL, are you saying Aussies are dumb?

Hello guys , Can someone please tell me what system(vanos Diva Disa) is on an N62 3.6l motor november 2003 build. The solenoids are located where? I can only find the variable timing electric motors. Please dont abuse me for my lack of knowledge but rather pity me and try and assist me with the ways of the BMW gurus that you are.
Thanks Chris

Damn, I have the same issue, connected inpa and I'm not sure but logically according to these pics my vanos suuuccks???
Does it mean the angles are completely off??? Does valvetronic look okay at least???
As I understand input value- what dme wants, actual value- after adjuster?

Interesting that nobody cares, but n62b44 was right, really appreciate this kind of nice posts here.
Checked today friends 2005 x5 with rebuilt vanos seals and TA DA!!! At least my vanos is screwed!!!
What about yours???? Cold shaking low end torque hesitation?
Look at his perfect working vanos!!! His car drives great ! No hesitation at any rpm at all. BMW is a lemon ??
Can anyone show his vanos screenshot from low miles car??
Well I think this is explanation of weep hole problem. Wrong timing-engine runs hot- all rubber seals die prematurely, valve stem caps are closest

Originally Posted by Black_on_black

Damn, I have the same issue, connected inpa and I'm not sure but logically according to these pics my vanos suuuccks???
Does it mean the angles are completely off??? Does valvetronic look okay at least???
As I understand input value- what dme wants, actual value- after adjuster?

Mine looks like yours. What did you end up doing, or did you find anything else about how to fix it? Are the adjustment units expensive, or did anyone ever figure out a way to just change the seals?? Mine is attached!

Actually, I just noticed the top of your screen says VANOS and mine says camshaft. Am I looking at the right thing?

Hi Guys,

This makes real interesting reading!!!!

I've been trying to diagnose a performance issue on my 745i for months!!!!

I'm experiencing hesitation or lagging when trying to accelerate, it's most pronounced when cruising and then going to accelerate and there is nothing there, the engine note changes but very little acceleration happens!!!!

It does happen from a standing start, where you feel reduced torque/power and a lot of the time a blowing exhaust sound, but the exhaust is leak free!

It's possible to feel what appears to be a slight misfire at idle or when revving as described in the first post.

However I will get the odd day where the car drives beautifully, plenty of torque and much more responsive throttle.

What annoys me is the throttle response was instant when I first bought the car, a little stab on the throttle and you could feel the power and acceleration instantly! There are no error codes whatsoever.

This fault has run me round the houses, it causes the gearbox to act up, it's slow to change gears, jerks sometimes as the engine isn't delivering the power smoothly. I've had trans issues around the same time tho ha happened which initially made me think the box was causing it. I've had the car and trans checked over by a ZF workshop and all is good.

It appears what I thought was transmission noise is actually exhaust noise, if the theory is correct and the VANOS adjusters are crap then could the added noise in the exhaust be caused by the exhaust valves being opened too early?

I mean other times when I drive the car it's quiet and at idle you wouldn't know the engine was running!

There are some things that's throwing doubt on this, it's not a very well known failure. I'm struggling to find information anywhere else on the net that confirms these go bad.

Secondly they do not operate in the same way that the M54 VANOS units do, these don't have o-rings but spring loaded vanes that separate 5 or so chambers where oil pressure is controlled either side to adjust the timing.

To be honest the design does not look particularly robust, it will wear out at some point and leakage between the vanes is expected which is why the VANOS control is closed loop.

Which brings me onto the next point, if these adjusters are playing up wouldn't the DME recognise that? I can see your values in INPA and they look ok (correct me if I'm wrong!) the desired angle and the actual angle are almost identical.

Could it be that as they wear out and oil leakage across the vanes increases the response time lengthens and they become slower to adjust the timing?

I mean don't get me wrong I'm just trying to understand why this has not been picked up before an is a known issue for such drivability issues, has anyone else changed these adjusters and has it fixed any issues?

I don't fancy spending £700-800 on new adjusters to find its no better!

Stuart

Well the guy above said they helped their neighbor replace them and it made a world of difference.. I am not really having any issues, but I can tell when I jump on the throttle this engine's power band is kind of a rubber band.. It will def. pull hard once it gets up in the RPM's.. Not sure about low end, because my car is always trying to be in the highest gear and the lowest RPM possible.. so I am usually cruising.. if I put it in manual and get on it, it goes.. I wouldn't mind replacing them if it wasn't alot of labor.. the parts price isn't as important to me as how many hours I need to waste doing it..

Hi cmpcpro,

Yeah I saw that, bit confusing, his neighbour had a 530 which is a M54 engine, you can re-build that VANOS with new seals, I done it on my old E46 a few years ago using the besian kit.

There is no such kit for the N62, the VANOS is a completely different design, it does not use a piston arrangement, presumeably to address the issues they were having with the S62, M52TU, M54 etc.... In the past.

It's important not to confuse the piston arrangement of the earlier VANOS units with the N62 adjustment units. They won't suffer the same o-ring issues. Its durability of the vanes inside the adjuster that could be a failure point in the N62 units (part number 9 on the diagram below).



The oil is fed to either side of the vane via oil galleries inside the cylinder head and front camshaft bearing cap. Oil enters the camshaft and is directed into the adjustment unit.

I guess it's possible that the vanes could leak causing pressure loss and affecting adjustment force and speed. One or more of the vanes could break up, causing mechanical obstruction and pressure loss. Or the locking piston at the bottom could get stuck, either locking the unit entirely or not locking when oil pressure is removed to return the camshafts to their initial starting position.

Of course the VANOS solenoids themselves could be blocked or obstructed or even a general oil pressure regulation problem from the oil pump.

I'm tempted to try and take one apart when I have the engine in bits to assess their condition.

Labour I would imagine would be an additional 2 hours on top of say the front upper timing chain gasket replacement.

As i'm stripping the heads in the new year workshop time isn't the issue for me but cost is!

Stuart

If someone in LA is interested in figuring this out I am willing to pay the $500 or so for parts and be the guiney pig if they want to do the labor

Hi Guys,

Just thought I'd update this thread as I have been having engine issues now for almost a year, the DME throws no codes whatsoever, I have checked for vacuum leaks, replaced CCV valves, replaced MAF etc... but to no avail, still having sluggish acceleration, lagging in gears, loss of power etc... Symptoms seemed to be temperature related, also exhaust noise was increased considerably at times with very poor engine power.

Regarding the VANOS on the N62, apparently its pretty reliable, and due to its vast difference in design over the earlier piston variants I would agree. Technically any fault with the VANOS, either sticking or complete failure would surely result in errors in the DME reported at camshaft too much or too little advanced etc...

This lead me onto the theory that if the DME 'thinks' everything is fine i.e. its requests x degrees of advance and the position is reached then it must be the information its receiving from the engine sensors.

If the camshaft sensor is slow to respond to the pickup disc on the camshaft then the DME would think the camshaft is somewhere where its not. However the DME would be none the wiser.

Therefore I pulled the two sensors on bank 1 and found them heavily coked up with burnt on flaking oil deposits, one of the connectors was filled with oil! the outside of the harness is dry, closer inspection seems to show oil seeping through the sensor itself. I cleaned the sensors in degreaser dried them out and refitted, this time reversing them so the INLET sensor was fitted to the EXHAUST and visa versa to see if this made any difference. (all 4 camshaft sensors are identical).

Well... the difference is incredible! lots of low end torque and no lagging at all when accelerating from a cruising speed!

Im convinced this is the cause of the issues I have been having and bear in mind the DME reports no codes and INPA shows the camshaft positions as being correct! The loud exhaust noise I imagine was because the exhaust valves were being opened too early during the power stroke.

I will clean up the other bank of sensors at the weekend and see how it goes, I will most likely replace all 4 when I strip the engine in the spring.

Anyway, anyone experiencing similar issues, check your camshaft sensor connectors for oil and try swapping them around to determine if the symptoms improve.

Stuart

think il pull mine to see.any great difference in aftermarket and genuine bmw sensors if i decide to replace.

Originally Posted by stuartjohn24

Hi Guys,

Just thought I'd update this thread as I have been having engine issues now for almost a year, the DME throws no codes whatsoever, I have checked for vacuum leaks, replaced CCV valves, replaced MAF etc... but to no avail, still having sluggish acceleration, lagging in gears, loss of power etc... Symptoms seemed to be temperature related, also exhaust noise was increased considerably at times with very poor engine power.

Regarding the VANOS on the N62, apparently its pretty reliable, and due to its vast difference in design over the earlier piston variants I would agree. Technically any fault with the VANOS, either sticking or complete failure would surely result in errors in the DME reported at camshaft too much or too little advanced etc...

This lead me onto the theory that if the DME 'thinks' everything is fine i.e. its requests x degrees of advance and the position is reached then it must be the information its receiving from the engine sensors.

If the camshaft sensor is slow to respond to the pickup disc on the camshaft then the DME would think the camshaft is somewhere where its not. However the DME would be none the wiser.

Therefore I pulled the two sensors on bank 1 and found them heavily coked up with burnt on flaking oil deposits, one of the connectors was filled with oil! the outside of the harness is dry, closer inspection seems to show oil seeping through the sensor itself. I cleaned the sensors in degreaser dried them out and refitted, this time reversing them so the INLET sensor was fitted to the EXHAUST and visa versa to see if this made any difference. (all 4 camshaft sensors are identical).

Well... the difference is incredible! lots of low end torque and no lagging at all when accelerating from a cruising speed!

Im convinced this is the cause of the issues I have been having and bear in mind the DME reports no codes and INPA shows the camshaft positions as being correct! The loud exhaust noise I imagine was because the exhaust valves were being opened too early during the power stroke.

I will clean up the other bank of sensors at the weekend and see how it goes, I will most likely replace all 4 when I strip the engine in the spring.

Anyway, anyone experiencing similar issues, check your camshaft sensor connectors for oil and try swapping them around to determine if the symptoms improve.

Stuart

Wow! That's great news! I think it's worth everyone checking.. if you are gaining a big increase in low end tq and power then certainly everyone would benefit to a degree cleaning or replacing their sensors.. did you disconnect power before doing this? It seems like everytime I unplug a sensor this car "knows".. How well did your sensors clean up? You gained all this power and you've only done one side so far?! That is promising!

Originally Posted by pauliehcfr

Just spoke to Beisan and they said the only issues with the N62 motors vanos is that the solenoids get clogged and need to be removed and cleaned....

Originally Posted by dirtdad

Hello guys , Can someone please tell me what system(vanos Diva Disa) is on an N62 3.6l motor november 2003 build. The solenoids are located where? I can only find the variable timing electric motors. Please dont abuse me for my lack of knowledge but rather pity me and try and assist me with the ways of the BMW gurus that you are.
Thanks Chris

Chris. The 03 735 was not sold in the USA. We have a 740 now with a 6 Cylinder in it for a few years ( after gas hit $4 plus a gallon). Here is a link on n62. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N62 I hope some of the oversea's members can answer your question.. Rick

This sounds really intresting, is this easy to do? If so how?

Originally Posted by cmpcpro

Wow! That's great news! I think it's worth everyone checking.. if you are gaining a big increase in low end tq and power then certainly everyone would benefit to a degree cleaning or replacing their sensors.. did you disconnect power before doing this? It seems like everytime I unplug a sensor this car "knows".. How well did your sensors clean up? You gained all this power and you've only done one side so far?! That is promising!

Yeah im convinced the sensors have been causing me this issue now for 11 months, its been a real headache the DME thinks everything is wrong, real time data shows camshafts in their intended positions, or so the DME thinks!

I havent been able to do the other side yet, mine is RHD and the main branch or the wiring loom gets in the way of the other two, I will use a smaller socket set to get in there, its dark early here so will probably wait until the weekend now, car is driving much better already!

Its been a shame, the car drove fantastic when I first got it, was too busy fixing the sat nav and a host of other electrical issues and never really enjoyed it before it started playing up, it started losing power at the same time the trans started leaking oil, then after a oil and pan change the adaptor seal blew out and I have been thinking the lagging and poor acceleration are due to the transmission!

The DME and EGS are tied together and the DME constantly communicates with the EGS giving engine load data, RPM etc... so the EGS can select the correct gear, go into lockup etc... if the engine load data is incorrect, i.e. an engine sensor is playing up slightly like the MAF or camshaft sensors then it can wreak havoc with the trans making it slip, slam and jerk into gears. This causes many people to blame the trans! I believe this is why there was a software update to the EGS to possibly not make it so dependent on the engine load data. Its a theory anyway! It could explain why even after trans replacement they still start playing up again shortly after. Who knows!

A parts distributor here in the UK is selling brand new camshaft sensors for £44 (30% off from £60 odd) they are made by VIEROL a German parts manufacturer that supply German manufacturers OEM parts, The original sensors are made by SWS (same company that make the PDC sensors). Has anyone heard of VIEROL? I suppose if they are German and not Chinese I stand a hope of them possibly working correctly! I don't want to fit duff parts and start another red herring chasing game!

I think the lesson learned here is that sensors do go bad and the DME wont know about it or has no way to compare to diagnose it as being a failure, I should have learnt that from previous experiences!

At the moment im guessing the exhaust one was dodgy from oil contamination in the plug, or simply swapping them has moved the fault to the other camshaft and the engine now runs better. I may have moved the problem to the inlet camshaft but the engine happens to run better that way round? only putting new ones in will I know for sure!

I didnt disconnect the battery, just unlocked car, popped the bonnet, pulled the engine covers and pulled them out. You can pull the plugs without removing anything if you want to check for oil.

Stuart

Originally Posted by Rick in Yuma

Chris. The 03 735 was not sold in the USA. We have a 740 now with a 6 Cylinder in it for a few years ( after gas hit $4 plus a gallon). Here is a link on n62. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N62 I hope some of the oversea's members can answer your question.. Rick

dirtdad,

The 3.6 N62 is almost identical to the 4.4 and 4.8 versions (745/750 respectively).

The DISA or variable intake manifold is basically the huge cast aluminium inlet manifold itself, it has variable runners inside, its actuated by a motor at the rear of the unit.

The VANOS solenoids are located at the front of the upper timing chain covers, two on each side. They are all identical.

I removed two on mine to asses their condition, they looked fine, no muck in them I have 104K miles now. O-Rings had taken a set where they have been in there 10 years but nothing out of the ordinary.

TBH the VANOS is closed loop, DME requests say 30% advance, solenoid opens to allow oil pressure int the adjuster, position is monitored by the DME using the camshaft sensor, the DME will keep applying oil pressure to the VANOS actuator until the desired position ir reached.

If the position is not reached for example by a faulty/clogged solenoid or leaking/clogged VANOS adjuster then the desired position will not be reached and the DME will 'see' this as a fault. What I dont know is the time limit the DME waits before it logs it as a fault.

This is what lead me to the theory of the sensors becoming less sensitive and reacting slower to the camshaft pulses.

Rabbling on a bit now but hope that helps,

Stuart

How hard was it replacing those camshaft sensors?

Well guys, the OEM sensors are $115 ea. regular price. I got a discount so I bought 4 of them.. No idea if I need them, but mine look super caked with oily gunk on the connectors.. I figured I would be the guinea pig and put four new sensors in the car. Can you guys confirm I just simply remove and replace new ones? No programming right? They don't come with the o-rings, so I bought 4 of them separately. I will have the sensors first thing tomorrow morning.

I read this whole thing and still dont have a clue what anyone is talking about. CMP - if your doing yours tomorrow can you take pics and do a write up?

Originally Posted by N62b44

Yep, I'm thinking the same way;((
But I really want that fixed. Still don't understand BMW: to design state of the art engine and put those seals which are designed not to last

sounds like did this on purpose and seemingly have been caught id email this finding to yahoo so they run a story once it breaks bmw will then be forced to do a massive recall

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App

Originally Posted by cmpcpro

If someone in LA is interested in figuring this out I am willing to pay the $500 or so for parts and be the guiney pig if they want to do the labor

Send me a PM I may be able to help u with this

Originally Posted by B7M4W5

Send me a PM I may be able to help u with this

Super busy atm but will send you a PM later this eve..

Anyway, here is my UPDATE:

I picked up four new CPS's today. 4 new o-rings. No matter how much oil, grease, I couldn't get them on with the new o-rings.. only one.. the rest I didn't want to break.. I even started bolting one down to see if it would seat, and it got really tight and still no seating so I backed out.. Anyway, I have been too busy to go on a real test drive, but I did run down the street a mile or so to pick up a part and as soon as I got on the road and just gave it normal gas I could feel the difference.. The car just feels lighter, less throttle to get same performance type thing.. and I haven't even gotten on it yet.. trans shifts different but not by much, def. feels like a tighter shift.. Will give a complete update later. About to go to a client's office will be on the freeway.

That's great! Thats exactly the result I had after cleaning and swapping the snesors, light throttle produced much more torque and power. They have slowly been getting worse and things getting sluggish again. Oil is back in the connector, it appears to be seeping through the sensor itself! Will get a new set on order soon!

To be honest I would use original o-rings if they are still rubber-like and not completely hard.

I would recommend clearing adaptations in the DME and EGS using INPA, that should make the DME and EGS adapt together and make the most of the new sensors.

Did you use genuine OEM sensors from the dealer? Did the sensors have any manufacturers names on?

Cheers!