All of these "doesn't handle well enough" comments need some perspective

Originally Posted by Chris90

Handling is one of those words that has many meanings.

Criticism by professionals that I've read is that the F30 doesn't have any steering feel. That's very different from saying the handling isn't good, or from saying the steering isn't accurate or fine. It can be very good and accurate despite no feel.

Exactly. Handling and steering feel are different things, though good steering feel contributes to handling, or at least one's perception of it. I think the F30 has outstanding handling and balance, but the steering, while accurate and precise, is incredibly numb. To me, that's the only blemish on an otherwise outstanding car.

Originally Posted by Nedmundo

Exactly. Handling and steering feel are different things, though good steering feel contributes to handling, or at least one's perception of it. I think the F30 has outstanding handling and balance, but the steering, while accurate and precise, is incredibly numb. To me, that's the only blemish on an otherwise outstanding car.

I also think the numbness is overblown. I have an E70 X5 and I drive my F30 and X5 back to back at times. Yes the X5 is a 5000lb truck but it has the same architecture as the E90s for the steering set up. I don't ever recall complaining about the numbness of my F30 after driving my X5.

Originally Posted by Chris90

Handling is one of those words that has many meanings.

Criticism by professionals that I've read is that the F30 doesn't have any steering feel. That's very different from saying the handling isn't good, or from saying the steering isn't accurate or fine. It can be very good and accurate despite no feel.

The 3 series with each generation outhandles the previous one, my E46 would I'm sure be faster around a tight road coarse than my E36, just due to more modern suspension design and tighter body stiffness. I've no doubt the F30 is the same, especially with the lighter 4 cylinder up front.

Top Gear just wrote that the M135i is a better sports car than the new Boxster, despite having zero steering feel. That says a lot, I think.

I'm not a professional driver (I am a very spirited driver), but I would say it is a complete overstatement to say the F30 has no steering feel.

The comments I'm about to make I've made before and I'm sure many of you have already read them, but since the steering issue always comes up I'll make them again. I have a 2006 E90 330i with active steering and I find the F30 steering, in sport mode (which is all I care about), to feel very similar to my car, both in steering effort and road feel. I think I'm in a fairly unique position to make this comparison, because exceedingly few E9x models were produced with active steering and I virtually never see another Bimmerfester comment on having it. I am very satisfied with the active steering in my car. It took me about two days to adjust to the slightly different feel after coming from a 2004 E46 330i ZHP. Prior to that I had a 2000 E46 328i.

Also, the type/amount of steering feel the F30 has is a decision BMW made. The F30 uses the same ZF EPS system Porsche uses. ZF tailors the steering to the individual vehicle manufacturers' specifications.

New Year's eve. On our way home at 1:30 or so on a Virginia back country called "Old Gun Road" (a classic name or what?). We come around a sharp curve and there's deer not standing on the road but down on its honches. Threw the wheel sharp right and just missed it. In any other car it would have been a real ugly way to start the New Year. Whatever you call it, I'm sure glad I had it! My wife is still scceaming.....

Originally Posted by davegrif

New Year's eve. On our way home at 1:30 or so on a Virginia back country called "Old Gun Road" (a classic name or what?). We come around a sharp curve and there's deer not standing on the road but down on its honches. Threw the wheel sharp right and just missed it. In any other car it would have been a real ugly way to start the New Year. Whatever you call it, I'm sure glad I had it! My wife is still scceaming.....

I think perhaps "in any other car" may be somewhat of an exaggeration but responsive steering can certainly be viewed as a safety feature.

CA

In response to my earlier post noting "Keep in mind the F30 335's 3.13.2 time was bested by the lowly V-6, solid rear axle Ford Mustang at 3:12.5 and even the Chevy Cobalt SS at 3:13.0," otonimus asserted:

Originally Posted by otonimus

Last time I checked this thread was about handling, not straight line performance.

The times I cite above are all from Car and Driver's "Lightening Lap" at VIR. That is, they are road course lap times - you know, with corners.

I appreciate there are those here highly impressed with the handling prowess of the F30. I merely suggest its capabilities are much more modest.

Originally Posted by Elk

In response to my earlier post noting "Keep in mind the F30 335's 3.13.2 time was bested by the lowly V-6, solid rear axle Ford Mustang at 3:12.5 and even the Chevy Cobalt SS at 3:13.0," otonimus asserted:



The times I cite above are all from Car and Driver's "Lightening Lap" at VIR. That is, they are road course lap times - you know, with corners.

I appreciate there are those here highly impressed with the handling prowess of the F30. I merely suggest its capabilities are much more modest.

To me, one of the largest factors of every single car tested(drivers aside)...tires.

The right or wrong or proper tire offered or selected on a variety of vehicles in that test would dramatically change the outcome.

Recently GM has been sending Z06s and Zr1s with gumball 80 or so tread rated 'Cup' tires. They outhandle, out brake and out skidpad every challenger including exotics costing 3x as much.

Even the new MKS handles very well with some super tires it had when tested by the reviewers. That's so true about the tires. I can live with the 3:13 time especially given it bested the S5 and is not too far off the S4, both of which have awd. I take it my m sport x drive with the staggered 19" tires would do better

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

To me, one of the largest factors of every single car tested(drivers aside)...tires.

The right or wrong or proper tire offered or selected on a variety of vehicles in that test would dramatically change the outcome.

Recently GM has been sending Z06s and Zr1s with gumball 80 or so tread rated 'Cup' tires. They outhandle, out brake and out skidpad every challenger including exotics costing 3x as much.

This is sooo true. Tires, tires, tires. The new Loncoln MKZ beats the 2013 M5 due to its tires. Off topic, but just proves that tires rolling off the factory makes a difference.

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/edmunds-...200000719.html

Originally Posted by g37to335i

Even the new MKS handles very well with some super tires it had when tested by the reviewers. That's so true about the tires. I can live with the 3:13 time especially given it bested the S5 and is not too far off the S4, both of which have awd. I take it my m sport x drive with the staggered 19" tires would do better

I forgot about that one!

Lincoln even admitted the tire might not even be an option.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I forgot about that one!

Lincoln even admitted the tire might not even be an option.

I think it's an expensive tire.

Originally Posted by g37to335i

I think it's an expensive tire.

I am sure it is. I think they are 19's, and the top tires in that size are $280-350 a piece.

I think they go all the way to 500, I would advise those guys getting the active hybrid 3 to get these tires

Originally Posted by g37to335i

I think they go all the way to 500, I would advise those guys getting the active hybrid 3 to get these tires

So far I am picking up Michelin Pilot Super Sports which are pretty much top of the class for $280-300 a tire(235r/275r 19's). Word is the Star Spec Z2 might be hitting the streets soon. I have Z1's, the former class King on the Roadster.

Go for it man, the tire makes a big difference in performance. Considering the average tire is about 180 the premium is not too bad

Originally Posted by g37to335i

Go for it man, the tire makes a big difference in performance. Considering the average tire is about 180 the premium is not too bad

I can think of no better place to spend money than tires on a car.

I remember a test years ago where they put $$$$ tires on a Kia and the braking, handling numbers were so huge they compared it to an off the shelf Porsche and it was shockingly close. Tires make or break any car.

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

They also tested a 2007 335i Coupe on 08/2007 that posted a time of 3:10.5 vs 13:13.2 for the F30.

Its a coupe vs a sedan for god sakes. Wonder what the e90 335i did?!
Better handling than piggy understeer e90. Lol. Hows that?

Originally Posted by Buildbright

Tires. I dove a sportline on the track with high performance tires. The f30 was a beast but the thing you must remember is that these numbers were with a professional or highly skilled drivers. The average driver would show different numbers. Mustangs are hard to push to the limit with there solid axle. You can't just read numbers you must go out and find out for yourself.

Smart man. I saw a guy driving rhe **** out of his previous gen gs350 on a track pretty fast!! Its awesome to see.

So a mustang did 3:13 with proper tires and a 335i SEDAN did a 3:15 with funflats?! Doesnt say much for ford does it?

Originally Posted by pkim1079

Its a coupe vs a sedan for god sakes. Wonder what the e90 335i did?!
Better handling than piggy understeer e90. Lol. Hows that?

The weight difference between the coupe and the sedan is MINIMAL and arguably according to many the sedan is a better track weapon. Better handling than E90 piggy? Please elaborate and prove it because your statement is contrary to most F30 reviews.

Originally Posted by pkim1079

So a mustang did 3:13 with proper tires and a 335i SEDAN did a 3:15 with funflats?! Doesnt say much for ford does it?

Considering the Mustang uses NA V6 that is not even DI and costs significantly less, yes it does say much for the Mustang. Don't make excuses, BMW CHOSE to put the runflats on the 3 series.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I'm not a professional driver (I am a very spirited driver), but I would say it is a complete overstatement to say the F30 has no steering feel.

Also, the type/amount of steering feel the F30 has is a decision BMW made. The F30 uses the same ZF EPS system Porsche uses. ZF tailors the steering to the individual vehicle manufacturers' specifications.

EPS seems to get really diverging reviews. I'll read a review of the new 911 saying it has no steering feel, then watch Tiff Needell on 5th Gear say the steering feel is great.

Originally Posted by pkim1079

So a mustang did 3:13 with proper tires and a 335i SEDAN did a 3:15 with funflats?! Doesnt say much for ford does it?

Lets be realistic. The V6 Mustang they tested is a hell of a car for about $30K. Especially when a 335 Sport with a few options approaches $50K. That's the beauty of the Mustang.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Lets be realistic. The V6 Mustang they tested is a hell of a car for about $30K. Especially when a 335 Sport with a few options approaches $50K. That's the beauty of the Mustang.

+1, if it was for a fun car, I'd buy a Boss 302 or Mustang GT over a 3 series. But they're not practical enough for our 2nd car.

Originally Posted by Chris90

+1, if it was for a fun car, I'd buy a Boss 302 or Mustang GT over a 3 series. But they're not practical enough for our 2nd car.

+1 - who over the age of 22 wants a Mustang as a daily driver?