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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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View Poll Results: BMW vs toyota?
2010 Prius 40k-50k miles cpo 5 50.00%
2006 325i 100k-110k miles non-cpo 5 50.00%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:25 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by Pasa-d View Post
Funny how opinions of cars differ. I drove a Prius (the slightly older generation) as a rental for a weekend and then drove a friend's for a weekend when my previous car was in the shop. I was both surprised and disappointed. Surprised at how well it accelerated (but it's no diesel!), disappointed in overall handling, ergonomics and general driving dynamics. As others have said, basically a toaster on wheels. I found I could not live with one as my daily driver.

For dense urban living, hybrids are great, particularly plug-in ones, as they move the source of the pollution away from the dense urban center and significantly reduce smog impacts. I do not think they "save the planet" overall though; you'd be better off with a very high fuel economy gas or diesel powered car if that is your intent. They have a much lower cradle-to-grave overall impact.
The more I research the plug-in cars, the less impressed I am with them. The greatest down-side is the battery pack (number of discharge-recharge cycles for a lithium battery pack is around 750 - 1,000). Unless the manufacturer is giving a 100,000 mile warranty on the battery pack, the owner is going to be eating a big chunk of expense around the 80K to 90K mile point. If economy is the deciding criteria, I would go with a non-plug-in hybrid, especially if city driving is going to be a significant factor. Highway, I would stick with my d.

As regards the relative clean-ness of the battery manufacturing process, the issue has been debated ad nauseam over on priuschat.com.
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  #27  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:30 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by roadkillrob View Post
Prius will be cheap to run and for maint until the battery/electronics are off warranty, eventually the batteries will be done and the car is worthless at that point, but that is 10 years away.

BMW's are notorious for things going wrong in the 100-130k range, you will be looking at struts, shocks, suspension bushings, water pump, radiator at minimum. Depending on current upkeep, brakes are likely and then typical Vanos, plug coil and other electronic issues are normal, the BMW will be much more to run over time than the Prius for many reasons.

That being said, the Prius is probably the most unfulfilling driving car on earth - it is a toaster with wheels and less power - everything about the car is boring and dull, the entire world hates you being in their way and because of all that you will turn into the kind of person that would buy a prius, eventually you will just move back in with your parents and live in their basement hoping that at some point it will all just end. With the BMW you will wakeup every day and be excited to drive your car, your car will probably have some issues and need towed to the mechanic sometimes, you will be excited waiting to get it back so you can drive it some more!

It all depends on what it is worth to you to have a fun to drive interesting car - it does cost more.

From experience, I have an E93 and a Civic, the Civic was an LX, traded it for an SI (one of the more exciting Honda products) and i drive the Civic on rainy days and in the winter - it is a fun car compared to a Prius and every time I drive it, it just makes me miss my E93 even more - after winter is over, I can't wait to get back in the BMW and drive it again. BMW is a driving experience, the Prius is an appliance to move people between 2 points!
In CA (and I think the same applies for states that have adopted the CA emissions model) cars certified as AT-PZEV come with a 10 year/150K mile warranty on the AT-PZEV components. The hybrid drive (which includes the battery) is covered under the AT-PZEV warranty. If the Prius the OP is considering was first delivered in CA, the AT-PZEV warranty applies. The AT-PZEV warranty is a big thing, since replacing the hybrid drive battery is on the order of $5,000.
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  #28  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:25 AM
PartyBoyWA PartyBoyWA is offline
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Go with whatever your cash will buy you outright. (Thinking used corolla or civic.) Our 328i replaced our 1994 Corolla. Still have the Corolla with around 158,000 miles on it. It costs us about $300/yr in unscheduled maintenance. The interior is perfect. The exterior a few nicks and dings, but overall it looks quite nice for it's age. With your budget, I'm guessing you can pick up a late 90's from a PP that's been very well taken care of.

In 10 years buy a custom ordered 3 series. My $.02.
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  #29  
Old 01-06-2013, 06:43 AM
jfxogara jfxogara is offline
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Originally Posted by roadkillrob View Post
everything about the car is boring and dull, the entire world hates you being in their way and because of all that you will turn into the kind of person that would buy a prius, eventually you will just move back in with your parents and live in their basement hoping that at some point it will all just end.
Awesome prose.
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  #30  
Old 01-06-2013, 06:53 AM
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MP3_E46 MP3_E46 is offline
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
Re. the Prius, things can be done to improve the handling (wider wheels & tires, front and rear suspension braces, possibly rear sway bar). The biggest downside of stock Prius is its susceptibility to cross-winds. Adding the suspension braces cures the cross-wind problems.

If the Prius is going to get the nod, be sure to check the service history on the car. If the oil changes have not been done at 5,000 mile intervals, there is a risk of sludge build-up.

MP3 - you really think the Prius is more comfortable than the E93? What seats do you have in your E93? Both the E90 and my ex-E93 were equipped with the Sport package, and I would rate the Sport package seats on par with the best (Volvo, MB) seats. Prius has manual adjustable seating that has its limits. I have gone on 5 hour road trips in the E90 with no seat problems. I doubt I would make a similar attempt with a Prius.

Some good made points there

The Prius does not like cross winds

Handling is really not bad. For the first week or so I felt it was terrible but once used to it one finds it's predicable at the limit even with lots of body roll. There are no bizarre geometry changes like cheap cars had twenty years ago. Absolute corning speed is obviously not that high but it's predicable and fun can be had - honestly. Several on the Prius forum upgraded to TRD shocks/springs but that's not why we bought the Prius


Good point on sludge. Our Prius was changed to synthetic at 1,000 miles - I imagine less than 1% of owners would do that. Most owners will do minimal servicing using Jiffy Lube etc once out of warranty


Our E93 has the sports package which is reasonably smooth considering the limited roll (during sensible driving). For me it's just not that comfortable on long journeys compared to the Prius. The BMW SP seats are totally light years ahead. The seats are perhaps the most impressive thing about my BMW - almost cannot believe how many ways they adjust

In Europe I tend to drive ~90mph+ on motorways and likely would prefer the BMW there, in the US we drive at 70->80 mph on the highways which tend to be rougher. The Prius is just so smooth and fairly quiet that'd even on trips to the beach (300+ miles) we'll likely take the Prius even though it would great to have the convertible there

Soon-ish virtually all cars will have self adjusting dampers. That time cannot arrive soon enough


Quote:
Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
since replacing the hybrid drive battery is on the order of $5,000.
Untrue. At least the myth is getting better, most used to quote $8K+. A new OEM battery is $2,299, install cost takes it to about $3K IIRC. It's possible to recondition to original battery just swapping out the dead cells - that's obviously much less expensive. Many on the Prius forums have the original battery at 200K miles and have spent little or sometimes nothing on repairs. How many BMWs even last that long before being junked?

Any BMW owner who hates the Prius should check out the Prius 299,999+ mile club and prepare to weep http://priuschat.com/threads/299-999-mile-club.79235/ Some are nudging half a million miles (with few repairs!)

It would be fun to take out Prius to a track day and see how many I can pass in the beginner sessions. With TRD suspension it'd certainly be possible
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  #31  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:35 AM
Pasa-d Pasa-d is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
The more I research the plug-in cars, the less impressed I am with them. The greatest down-side is the battery pack (number of discharge-recharge cycles for a lithium battery pack is around 750 - 1,000). Unless the manufacturer is giving a 100,000 mile warranty on the battery pack, the owner is going to be eating a big chunk of expense around the 80K to 90K mile point. If economy is the deciding criteria, I would go with a non-plug-in hybrid, especially if city driving is going to be a significant factor. Highway, I would stick with my d.

As regards the relative clean-ness of the battery manufacturing process, the issue has been debated ad nauseam over on priuschat.com.
I guess I'm always thinking in terms of leasing, not ownership. An associate at my office turned in his BMW lease and got a Volt. We have charging stations at our office. In several months of commuting he's purchased gas exactly once. No matter how you look at it, that's pretty cool. When his lease is up the battery becomes someone else's problem. Plus he gets to use the HOV and toll lanes!
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  #32  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:18 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by MP3_E46 View Post
snip...

Untrue. At least the myth is getting better, most used to quote $8K+. A new OEM battery is $2,299, install cost takes it to about $3K IIRC. It's possible to recondition to original battery just swapping out the dead cells - that's obviously much less expensive. Many on the Prius forums have the original battery at 200K miles and have spent little or sometimes nothing on repairs. How many BMWs even last that long before being junked?

Any BMW owner who hates the Prius should check out the Prius 299,999+ mile club and prepare to weep http://priuschat.com/threads/299-999-mile-club.79235/ Some are nudging half a million miles (with few repairs!)

It would be fun to take out Prius to a track day and see how many I can pass in the beginner sessions. With TRD suspension it'd certainly be possible
What is dealership price on the battery pack replacement? A friend who is a service manager at a Toyota dealership mentioned that the replacement cost for a hybrid battery pack runs just under $5,000. I stopped in to pick them up for a Lunch meeting and a 2nd Gen Prius was in the shop with the whole back end opened up. Curiosity got the better of me and I asked what was the matter with the Prius. Battery pack replacement was the answer. My next question was how much and that was when I learned about the AT-PZEV coverage.

IMO playing games with replacing individual cells is venturing into voodoo land. Also can be hazardous to your health if you don't know exactly what you are doing. Toyota techs don't venture there; they just replace the old with new.

Edit: If memory serves, the TRD suspension consists of lowering springs and maybe shocks. Cross-wind problems are due to body roll when the wind hits the wide surface area of the side of the Prius. I suspect there is more side surface area to the Prius than the E90.... Anyhows, I have personal experience with curing cross-wind problems - a friend was complaining about the cross-wind problem with their 2nd Gen Prius. I suggested the suspension braces and wider tires (205 series) and after adding the bits (TOMS is one vendor), the car is steady with no buffeting in cross winds. Before the mods, in a good wind, the car would change lanes. I think you would do better with suspension braces and wider tires than lowered car in an autocross. If a rear sway bar was available, that would help as well.
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  #33  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:33 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by Pasa-d View Post
I guess I'm always thinking in terms of leasing, not ownership. An associate at my office turned in his BMW lease and got a Volt. We have charging stations at our office. In several months of commuting he's purchased gas exactly once. No matter how you look at it, that's pretty cool. When his lease is up the battery becomes someone else's problem. Plus he gets to use the HOV and toll lanes!
In the current situation as regards battery tech, leasing is probably the best option. There will be increasing pressure on manufacturers to offer electric vehicles as a way to meet increasing CAFE requirements. But absent a 100K mile battery warranty, ownership is not something I would consider.
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  #34  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:01 PM
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MP3_E46 MP3_E46 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
What is dealership price on the battery pack replacement? A friend who is a service manager at a Toyota dealership mentioned that the replacement cost for a hybrid battery pack runs just under $5,000.

IMO playing games with replacing individual cells is venturing into voodoo land. Also can be hazardous to your health if you don't know exactly what you are doing. Toyota techs don't venture there; they just replace the old with new.

Edit: If memory serves, the TRD suspension consists of lowering springs and maybe shocks. Cross-wind problems are due to body roll when the wind hits the wide surface area of the side of the Prius. I suspect there is more side surface area to the Prius than the E90.... Anyhows, I have personal experience with curing cross-wind problems - a friend was complaining about the cross-wind problem with their 2nd Gen Prius. I suggested the suspension braces and wider tires (205 series) and after adding the bits (TOMS is one vendor), the car is steady with no buffeting in cross winds. Before the mods, in a good wind, the car would change lanes. I think you would do better with suspension braces and wider tires than lowered car in an autocross. If a rear sway bar was available, that would help as well.

Your buddy was taken to the cleaners, he is a perfect candidate for used BMW ownership with dealership maintenance

A quick search shows was one owner quoted $3,400 for main dealer replacement. By ~150K miles even at $3,400 the battery has long been paid for. My commute mpg in the E93 is 14->18 mpg; it's 36->41 in the Prius, it get ~48->58 in regular use.

This is a DIY which forum members say takes about four hours:
http://www.priusrebuilders.com/how_t...hybrid_battery

Swapping cells means ~$400->800 when paying someone else to do it. A BMW dealer charges $480 to change a basic 12V battery Plenty have swapped cells, it's not vodoo but of course a main dealer is not going to mess around; they want a high profit total swap which requires almost zero skill from mechanics.



Cross winds are likely mainly due to aerodynamics but your suggestions should make it less likely to move. Its not that bad, way better than panel vans I've driven (Father had a grocery store in the UK so I drove them pretty often). Car and Driver says "It tracks better and is less susceptible to crosswinds than the Insight".

This summer I aim to do a cross country trip in the Prius towing a popup camper (~1,100 lbs); they are versatile cars. One guy uses his to ship motorcycles around the country and makes far more profit than his competitors thanks to his fuel savings. http://jalopnik.com/5905722/meet-the...s-with-a-prius
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Last edited by MP3_E46; 01-06-2013 at 03:02 PM.
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  #35  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:53 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by MP3_E46 View Post
Your buddy was taken to the cleaners, he is a perfect candidate for used BMW ownership with dealership maintenance

A quick search shows was one owner quoted $3,400 for main dealer replacement. By ~150K miles even at $3,400 the battery has long been paid for. My commute mpg in the E93 is 14->18 mpg; it's 36->41 in the Prius, it get ~48->58 in regular use.

This is a DIY which forum members say takes about four hours:
http://www.priusrebuilders.com/how_t...hybrid_battery

Swapping cells means ~$400->800 when paying someone else to do it. A BMW dealer charges $480 to change a basic 12V battery Plenty have swapped cells, it's not vodoo but of course a main dealer is not going to mess around; they want a high profit total swap which requires almost zero skill from mechanics.
I am not sure what you are trying to communicate. If the car had its first retail delivery in CA (where the OP is a resident), the Prius is subject to an emissions system warranty of 10 years/150,000 miles on the AT-PZEV components. If the hybrid battery fails during that period, Toyota pays 100% of the replacement cost. In the S.F. Bay Area, the Toyota dealers are getting just shy of $5,000 for a hybrid battery replacement. Toyota doesn't tell them to swap cells out; a total replacement is specified.

Given the 100% coverage, why would the OP even consider a cell swap? That would be totally on their dime and would void the factory warranty.

Quote:
Cross winds are likely mainly due to aerodynamics but your suggestions should make it less likely to move. Its not that bad, way better than panel vans I've driven (Father had a grocery store in the UK so I drove them pretty often). Car and Driver says "It tracks better and is less susceptible to crosswinds than the Insight".
I have no experience with the Insight, but I did experience the cross wind affect. After the wider wheels and tires plus the suspension braces, there was zero swerving, so the wheels/tires & braces would seem to have cured the cross wind swerving since nothing else was changed.

Quote:
This summer I aim to do a cross country trip in the Prius towing a popup camper (~1,100 lbs); they are versatile cars. One guy uses his to ship motorcycles around the country and makes far more profit than his competitors thanks to his fuel savings. http://jalopnik.com/5905722/meet-the...s-with-a-prius
If that is what you are into, more power to you. The Prius is not for everyone, but for those who like what it offers, it is probably the best option available.
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