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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:04 AM
petee1997 petee1997 is offline
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Both of them kicked major a$$ this year but when I say M-B is getting its lunch eaten, it's by judging on a momentum scale. If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't until last year that M-B had been outsold by BMW ever(?), and if you look at worldwide sales M-B is losing massive market share to not only BMW, but now Audi (whereas a couple of years ago they were in the lead, now they're falling to a distant third rapidly).

However, for me it really doesn't matter, as the same goes for when I had an M-B: For all I care I'm happy if the "other guy" sells more, since it doesn't have to make me see myself come and go as much as possible.

Yeah the deals were insane and it's nice to see many of us benefited from the BMW/M-B ca t fight. However, I'm pretty sure M-B's incentives were what pushed BMW's incentives so much in Dec. People have been getting W212's all year for under $500 a month and with practically nothing down. I think it was M-B who had the first 24 month Lease with an artificially high residual to move a massive amount of E's in Nov, of which BMW retaliated in Dec (and ironically sold about as many 5's as E's sold in Nov, reversing the tables as the E sold significantly less than the 5 in Dec while it was reversed in Nov).

Still, however, from cross shopping these two cars a lot, I can say even by getting my own Lease incentive that is better than anything I had imagined on a loaded 535i, it still doesn't match how cheap W212's Lease for (again, in the $400's with minimal down is just crazy subsidized for a $50+K MSRP car). Then again, I don't follow 528i Lease rates....
MB has no competition for the 528i in the US. In Canada, we have the E300 which is less equipped and does not have the AMG package standard.

Prices and models vary by country but when I was shopping the CLS 550 4M against the 650i x drive Gran Coupe, BMW was out to lunch. Base price on the Gran Sport in Canada is 100K compared to a base of 84K for the CLS. However ,comparing model for model on equipment, the BMW was 25K more. Including dealer charges and options the MB was 96K compared to 119K for the Bimmer. I compared that to US pricing and the cars were in the same ball park.

MB adjusted their prices when they introduced the new generation CLS in the Fall of 2011. Now a similarly equipped CLS in Canada is within 6K of US pricing. Keep in mind Canadian cars come with more standard equipment which explains the higher base.

With the dollar at par it's hard to comprehend why our cars are more expensive.

PS I must admit, I would have purchased the Gran Coupe if it had been within 5K of the CLS. That said, the CLS is one of the best performing cars I have owned to date.
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Last edited by petee1997; 01-06-2013 at 07:13 AM.
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  #27  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:19 PM
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MB has no competition for the 528i in the US. In Canada, we have the E300 which is less equipped and does not have the AMG package standard.

Prices and models vary by country but when I was shopping the CLS 550 4M against the 650i x drive Gran Coupe, BMW was out to lunch. Base price on the Gran Sport in Canada is 100K compared to a base of 84K for the CLS. However ,comparing model for model on equipment, the BMW was 25K more. Including dealer charges and options the MB was 96K compared to 119K for the Bimmer. I compared that to US pricing and the cars were in the same ball park.

MB adjusted their prices when they introduced the new generation CLS in the Fall of 2011. Now a similarly equipped CLS in Canada is within 6K of US pricing. Keep in mind Canadian cars come with more standard equipment which explains the higher base.

With the dollar at par it's hard to comprehend why our cars are more expensive.

PS I must admit, I would have purchased the Gran Coupe if it had been within 5K of the CLS. That said, the CLS is one of the best performing cars I have owned to date.
Maybe, but it does not even come close in matching the looks. The CLS is very dated now. You are pursuing based on that..
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  #28  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:22 PM
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Maybe, but it does not even come close in matching the looks. The CLS is very dated now. You are pursuing based on that..
How is a CLS dated?

Only thing dated about is the terrible COMMAND system
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  #29  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:26 PM
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How is a CLS dated?

Only thing dated about is the terrible COMMAND system
Its basically the same it was 10 years ago and even in this iteration, its in the 3 or 4th year... Ours not just me, one of the car magazines just did the 4 Door Coupe comparison. They said the same thing. Funny though, CLS won because of the 20K difference.
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  #30  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:27 PM
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Actually my understanding is that in China Audi outsells BMW. BMW is in the process of following the Audi decision to build manufacturing pants in China.

I was curious because a couple of months back someone said that this year, Audi would beat BMW... LOL

Thanks for the info.
It really doesn't matter who is no 1. The quest to seek #1 only results in lower quality for the rest of us. Look at BMW. Quality has been declining. No way to argue against that. MB has stopped seeking pure volume and they have concentrated their efforts on quality and it is paying off. Remember when MB was the gold standard? They're already near the top now.


Fact of the matter is that the Germans dominate the luxury segment. That's it. No one holds a candle to them. In some areas of the world, we have Lexus or Cadillac making dents, but worldwide it's not even a fair comparison.

As long as MB/Audi/BMW battle it out to make fantastic cars, we, as consumers, benefit tremendously.
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  #31  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:29 PM
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Its basically the Dane it was 10 years ago and even in this iteration, its in the 3 or 4th year... Ours not just me, one of the car magazines just did the 4 Door Coupe comparison. They said the same thing. Funny though, CLS won because of the 20K difference.
Current model came out in 2010 as MY11, so no... 2 years old.

The 6GC just came out. Most everything looks "outdated" next to it. It's a shame BMW is ripping people off with it. I can get a CLS63 for the price of loaded 640i GC

Last edited by AutoUnion; 01-06-2013 at 02:30 PM.
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  #32  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:36 PM
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Current model came out in 2010 as MY11, so no... 2 years old.

The 6GC just came out. Most everything looks "outdated" next to it. It's a shame BMW is ripping people off with it. I can get a CLS63 for the price of loaded 640i GC
MY 11, MY 12, MY 13 - 3 years old.

I agree the price is high - such is the price of exclusivity.
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  #33  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:39 PM
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As long as MB/Audi/BMW battle it out to make fantastic cars, we, as consumers, benefit tremendously.
In this we agree.

My question mattered to me as it was a debate I had several months ago.
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  #34  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:41 PM
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MY 11, MY 12, MY 13 - 3 years old.

I agree the price is high - such is the price of exclusivity.
Does that also make your F10 outdated since it also debuted for MY11?
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  #35  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:47 PM
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Does that also make your F10 outdated since it also debuted for MY11?
Good point, but its so drastically different then the previous version I would say no. To my eyes the CLS is not that different then say the 2008 model. Maybe its just me... Oh and the car critics... Lmao
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  #36  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:53 PM
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It really doesn't matter who is no 1. The quest to seek #1 only results in lower quality for the rest of us. Look at BMW. Quality has been declining. No way to argue against that. MB has stopped seeking pure volume and they have concentrated their efforts on quality and it is paying off. Remember when MB was the gold standard? They're already near the top now.


Fact of the matter is that the Germans dominate the luxury segment. That's it. No one holds a candle to them. In some areas of the world, we have Lexus or Cadillac making dents, but worldwide it's not even a fair comparison.

As long as MB/Audi/BMW battle it out to make fantastic cars, we, as consumers, benefit tremendously.
Actually M-B have made it very public that they want to be the "sales leaders" straight from Dr. Z's mouth (very unbecoming statement from the CEO of a historic brand to basically make it look like he's admitting they've fallen behind and will go through desperate measures to "get back" / I wish M-B can at least maintain the *image* that they're too elite and premium to care about mass sales "crowns"). Also, I read somewhere that in order to get closer to their competitors profit margins Daimler will employ cost cutting measures across the board.... we all know how well that turned out last time.

Based on my observations, M-B is at a tough spot and it seems like they're getting desperate in some ways, by making these statements whilst their market share gets battered worldwide, and while their new designs are just looking more and more at odd and confused, IMO.

M-B is about to release more FWD lower priced "mover" cars in the U.S so it looks like they're gonna keep expanding in the lower segment areas to try and meet their "statement".

There was an article out recently that stated "Investors" are valuing the Mercedes-Benz BRAND itself as being worth HALF of what BMW brand (by itself) is worth. They broke it down by stock price and it makes a lot of sense. If M-B is only valued as half of what BMW is, then we can be sure Dr. Z is behind the scenes doing something drastic.... hopefully it's more interesting and intriguing than releasing a plethora of FWD Compact Cars.
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  #37  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:06 PM
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Good point, but its so drastically different then the previous version I would say no. To my eyes the CLS is not that different then say the 2008 model. Maybe its just me... Oh and the car critics... Lmao
I'm not sure. This post just feels ignorant to me

F10 isn't new. It's merely a smaller F01. Nothing special. The new CLS is an evolution of an award winning sedan. There is no reason to change it. MB created that segment.
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  #38  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:58 PM
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Maybe, but it does not even come close in matching the looks. The CLS is very dated now. You are pursuing based on that..
Not at all - the CLS is a great looking car. Almost bought an AMG CLS63 over the summer. I'm holding out for something a little more special, but the CLS is a great looking car.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:16 PM
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There was an article out recently that stated "Investors" are valuing the Mercedes-Benz BRAND itself as being worth HALF of what BMW brand (by itself) is worth. They broke it down by stock price and it makes a lot of sense. If M-B is only valued as half of what BMW is, then we can be sure Dr. Z is behind the scenes doing something drastic....
That was a somewhat bogus analysis, though. BMW today has a market cap of 48.2bn EUR, MB has a market cap of 45.5bn EUR. The "analysis" required you to apply a valuation to MB's truck business and take that out of the equation but made no such adjustment for BMW's other businesses such as the motorcycle business or the non-core brands. The numbers can be adjusted any way you like but for the shares issued the market values these two companies at broadly similar market capitalization. MB revenues are higher than BMW and has slightly higher EBITDA but BMW has the higher margin. Consider, though, that both brands are less than 10% the market cap of say Apple - it's all somewhat arbitrary...
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  #40  
Old 01-06-2013, 04:16 PM
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I just hate the crashingly wayward lines all over the new CLS. Gives it a more disjointed and disoriented look from the original version, IMO, and they take away from what should be a graceful and lengthy elegant sweep of a profile (the lines give it a stubbier impression, IMO). Other than that I think it has a beautiful architecture as it should, but for a 6'4'er like myself that architecture makes it impossible to comfortably fit in. Also, I think the 6 Gran Coupe's more tied together and well proportioned look really shames the new CLS, not to mention it's even sleeker/sportier looking AND has more headroom (bravo BMW engineers on that one). However, of course we all know you have to literally PAY for that with the 6GC, it's just insanely overpriced on a technical level, and we'll soon see the Used Car Market hammer down the price (as has already been happening, especially to the 6 Coupe).
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:17 PM
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Consider, though, that both brands are less than 10% the market cap of say Apple - it's all somewhat arbitrary...
Crazy, ain't it. Can't help but be proud of Apple for defying pretty much everything.
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  #42  
Old 01-06-2013, 04:55 PM
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Crazy, ain't it. Can't help but be proud of Apple for defying pretty much everything.
Yeah, it's crazy what Apple has been able to do.
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  #43  
Old 01-06-2013, 05:00 PM
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Actually M-B have made it very public that they want to be the "sales leaders" straight from Dr. Z's mouth (very unbecoming statement from the CEO of a historic brand to basically make it look like he's admitting they've fallen behind and will go through desperate measures to "get back" / I wish M-B can at least maintain the *image* that they're too elite and premium to care about mass sales "crowns"). Also, I read somewhere that in order to get closer to their competitors profit margins Daimler will employ cost cutting measures across the board.... we all know how well that turned out last time.
Interesting. Was not aware that Dr.Z said this. MB still has the prestige that no other brand (in its class) can match. Cost cutting will ruin them once again.

Quote:
Based on my observations, M-B is at a tough spot and it seems like they're getting desperate in some ways, by making these statements whilst their market share gets battered worldwide, and while their new designs are just looking more and more at odd and confused, IMO.

M-B is about to release more FWD lower priced "mover" cars in the U.S so it looks like they're gonna keep expanding in the lower segment areas to try and meet their "statement".
Can't really fault MB for this. BMW and Audi are increasingly going downmarket also. As long as all of their top tier cars remain good, I don't see issues with letting younger buyers into the brand. Helps build brand loyalty also.

I think MB should just stay back and let BMW/Audi battle it out for the sales crown. It's not like Mercedes is not staying relevant. It's Mercedes-Benz! For decades, Mercedes was the leader in quality and engineering. They lost it in the Chrysler-era and are slowly gaining it back. Seeking volume only ruins this. (Just ask GM, etc).
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  #44  
Old 01-06-2013, 05:07 PM
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Yeah, it's crazy what Apple has been able to do.
Indeed, inspiring stuff.

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Interesting. Was not aware that Dr.Z said this. MB still has the prestige that no other brand (in its class) can match. Cost cutting will ruin them once again.



Can't really fault MB for this. BMW and Audi are increasingly going downmarket also. As long as all of their top tier cars remain good, I don't see issues with letting younger buyers into the brand. Helps build brand loyalty also.

I think MB should just stay back and let BMW/Audi battle it out for the sales crown. It's not like Mercedes is not staying relevant. It's Mercedes-Benz! For decades, Mercedes was the leader in quality and engineering. They lost it in the Chrysler-era and are slowly gaining it back. Seeking volume only ruins this. (Just ask GM, etc).
Yeah, about cost cutting, I *heard* that from someone on another Forum. But about the statement he definitely said that. Yeah, I wish M-B would at least APPEAR to "not care about the sales crown". It looks bad when the most historically prestigious brand is acting like they're "losing" and want to amount more mass sales than the next guys. They should really protect that "cachet halo" they have because IMO it's what's keeping the brand going more so than anything, especially after the Daimler-Chrysler debacle (which started chipping away at said halo as much as it could).
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:51 PM
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I'm not sure. This post just feels ignorant to me

F10 isn't new. It's merely a smaller F01. Nothing special. The new CLS is an evolution of an award winning sedan. There is no reason to change it. MB created that segment.
Why is it ignorant? I agree it is a smaller F01, just like the F30 is a smaller F10 - what's that got to do with anything?

I agree MB created the segment. The Ford Explorer also created the SUV segment, and now do you think they lead the segment? Same is true of the Caravan - no longer the case. Look at Apple that took a segment created and dominated by Nokia and well now look at them.

I agree that the original CLS was ground breaking, and MB - rather than mess with that has kept the look pretty much the same - hence my statement about dated. Perhaps I should have used stale?
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:33 PM
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Those two pics just confirm my view that the current gen CLS is a great looking car. Where Mercedes falls down is the electronics - MB is way behind BMW in that regard. A well specced CLS interior can actually be a nice place to be, it's just the technology that's lacking.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:49 PM
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My issue with the CLS is all the unnecessarily wayward lines that just crash everywhere. I can't make sense of them and would love to actually hear the designers (in non marketing speak) describe just what they were thinking when they drew a reverse wedge line that runs down Zorro style on a car that's supposed to be a sporty "Coupe", not to mention one is inherently wedge shaped (wedge shaped architecture with a reverse wedge line that has no correlation whatsoever with said architecture?). And why the door handles don't even follow said line (nor aren't even placed on the line for a tied together look). Why said line crashes into a random point of the fender swelling, then why the bottom line goes wedge shaped all of a sudden, again having no tie-in with anything else around it. Maybe I'm a simpleton but good car design to me has to look connected and cohesive. The CLS has about 3 dimensions in its look which IMO breaks it up and makes it appear much shorter and less lengthy/sleek than it should.




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Old 01-06-2013, 08:14 PM
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Those two pics just confirm my view that the current gen CLS is a great looking car. Where Mercedes falls down is the electronics - MB is way behind BMW in that regard. A well specced CLS interior can actually be a nice place to be, it's just the technology that's lacking.
That is looking dated after minimal changes other than to add a bunch of crashing lines since 2004.
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Old 01-06-2013, 08:14 PM
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Agree, current CLS is a mess that lacks the cohesive style the original did. It is clearly trying too hard.

As they said in one magazine, the designer who penned gen 2 had a choice....update the original or strike out in a different vein. He did the latter. THe magazine, echoing many others, wish he had done the former.
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Old 01-06-2013, 08:27 PM
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Mein Auto: 2014 550i
I thought the current gen looks a little too "bulbous", if that is an accurate description. Still, it is attractive. And still very rare. Interior wise, it is very nice and upmarket, but very marred by the dated COMAND system. Driving characteristic wise, after test driving the CLS550 and now my current 550i, it was very similar. MB had really upped their game with dynamics with that car. Still, just like the 6GC costs much more than the CLS, the CLS costs more than the 550i with a similar mix of features.
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ED on 7/18/2014: 2014 550i, Space Gray, Mocha. M Sport, Cold Weather, DAP, Executive, Lighting
PCD on 9/6/2011: 2011 550i, DSB, black/oyster. Prem 2, Conv, Ventilated, HUD, Sport, DHP, SAT
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