1995 540i won't start

Hi please this is a threadjack but you did not state if you have spark, if you dont your izsue is likely the crank sensor, please do start a fresh thread will not respond further to you here, cheers

If you are talking to me, my sincere apologies...thought very same problem so not a thread jack...seems shame to start new thread with all very same issues and symptoms tho yes little different model and year. Again, apologies :embarrassed:

Originally Posted by pkquest

...... There is good spark (even put new plugs in), ....

Originally Posted by robertobaggio20

Hi please this is a threadjack but you did not state if you have spark, if you dont your izsue is likely the crank sensor, please do start a fresh thread will not respond further to you here, cheers

I don't think this is a thread jack since he has the exact same problem. Who knows, he may find the solution, post it here and both he and Rick may benefit.

To pkquest and Rick, I've not heard of timing chain failure on a M60 before, but it certainly is possible. One member here had a M50 that snapped its chain. It was the first time I had heard of it on the robust M50. Are you able to see the rocker arm assembly on one bank if you remove the oil filler cap? If so, have someone crank the engine over and ensure that the valve assembly is turning. My presumption is that it is turning or else the piston would be hitting valves (if the M60 is an interference engine). Plus, I would think that it would be making a horrible noise if the timing chain broke. Hopefully, you can mark this off of your worry list.

pkquest, you indicate that your compression was good after adding oil in the cylinders. How was it prior to that?

Rick, have you checked the compression on your engine? Have either of you determined if you have the Nikasil block? I would not think that this would be the problem because they usually start having problems slowly and manifest with symptoms. It sounds as if both of you had a sudden no-start. It's just another thing to check.

Rick, it may be that you may wind up having to take your car to a BMW mechanic for a diagnosis.

Originally Posted by BMR_LVR

I don't think this is a thread jack since he has the exact same problem. Who knows, he may find the solution, post it here and both he and Rick may benefit.

You can call it what you like but it would be more efficient for him to start the conversation in a new thread, will become increasingly difficult to follow especially if we have an involved to and fros back and forth between TWO people instead of one, which would be a compromise to the OP who started this thread. Solutions found elsewhere are usually quickly conveyed across the board as well.

Or perhaps we could have a giant no start thread and ask people who start a new one to just begin tagging along on that instead ?

Anyway, to anyone new here, please download the Bentley manual and its troubleshooting tables summary and go from there. See you in a new thread.

YES, tested both banks....all 8 cylinders and all 8 spark plugs and all 8 ignition coils.

On the cranking I crank it till the cows come home and am POSITIVE that I have good hot strong repetitive spark on all 8 cyllinders.

Thanks for the help!

Originally Posted by _Ethrty-Andy_

Sorry, i didnt read EVERY word in this thread, its very long and I'm not familiar with the M6x engines anyway.

When you have tested for spark, i assume you have tested both banks? also assume that the engine has coil packs and you have tested every single plug? if it has one coil per bank like the M70 engine im familiar with, you only need to test any random plug.

also, while testing for spark, how long are you cranking the car for? if it is a few seconds, it may not be enough to check adequately for spark, because the ECU can shut the car down if it notices a problem with itself, which cancels the spark.

Hey Steve,

I read this but don't think I replied.

This is a great suggestion and certainly a possibility although I still can't understand how I could drive the car into the garage and turn it off and have this scenario occur? Non the less I took a photo of the front of the dampener. In the photo I can see pin #3 is in it's place but I think the woodruff key must be under the center washer and bolt area?

Next on my list is to check the ohms on the CCV tomorrow evening and either way replace it on Tuesday evening when the new CCV arrives.

I took the Sabbath Day today and went to Church as that is my best peace of mind and release from worlds troubles and Bimmers that won't start....ha ha

Will report back on the Ohm check tomorrow after supper. Will check the ohms on the cam sensor while I'm there.

Rick in Ohio

Originally Posted by BMR_LVR

Ok. I have one last far out in left field thought/suggestion.

Now, here is my 1%’er possibility and the possible culprit. The crankshaft pulley (and by default the vibration damper) is held in the correct position/relationship to the crankshaft only by a woodruff key. See the below diagram:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...34&hg=11&fg=18

If that woodruff key has sheared or suffered metal fatigue and has only slightly deformed, the vibration damper (which the CPS generates the pulse from) will no longer be in proper relationship with the crankshaft thereby causing the DME to generate the spark and fuel at the wrong moment of the piston cycle. It would only have to be off by a few degrees.

I have heard of this happening before, but never on a BMW. That’s not to say it couldn’t happen. Also, it just wouldn’t make sense for this to happen after the car had been sitting. I think I may adjust my percentage to 0.1% possibility.

I assume that this would be a laborious venture to look at since the serpentine belt, vibration damper and likely the crankshaft pulley itself would all have to be pulled to inspect it. I think that this would have to be one of the very last things to be investigated.

Anyway, I sure wish I could come up with a solution for you Rick. I will certainly chime in if I can think of anything. I would love for it to be something as simple as the CPS.

Hey Steve,

I believe mine is the Alusil block. I think I did confirm it when I bought the car about 8 or so years ago. I also understand that it would deteriorate over time.

Have NOT checked compressions. I have no reason to believe they are weak but it ran fine when parked so I believe it's something else.....but what do I know :^)!

I made a post early on where I did remove the filler cap to verify the chains are intact and turning. All is well there. Thanks for the info about how robust they are!

Rick in Ohio

Originally Posted by BMR_LVR

I don't think this is a thread jack since he has the exact same problem. Who knows, he may find the solution, post it here and both he and Rick may benefit.

To pkquest and Rick, I've not heard of timing chain failure on a M60 before, but it certainly is possible. One member here had a M50 that snapped its chain. It was the first time I had heard of it on the robust M50. Are you able to see the rocker arm assembly on one bank if you remove the oil filler cap? If so, have someone crank the engine over and ensure that the valve assembly is turning. My presumption is that it is turning or else the piston would be hitting valves (if the M60 is an interference engine). Plus, I would think that it would be making a horrible noise if the timing chain broke. Hopefully, you can mark this off of your worry list.

pkquest, you indicate that your compression was good after adding oil in the cylinders. How was it prior to that?

Rick, have you checked the compression on your engine? Have either of you determined if you have the Nikasil block? I would not think that this would be the problem because they usually start having problems slowly and manifest with symptoms. It sounds as if both of you had a sudden no-start. It's just another thing to check.

Rick, it may be that you may wind up having to take your car to a BMW mechanic for a diagnosis.

Will keep everyone posted here as WHEN 'we' find the problem I know this will help others down the road. If you beat me to it then I'll give you a nickel.....If I get mine first then you owe me :^)!

Rick in Ohio

Originally Posted by pkquest

If you are talking to me, my sincere apologies...thought very same problem so not a thread jack...seems shame to start new thread with all very same issues and symptoms tho yes little different model and year. Again, apologies :embarrassed:

Oh yea.....this thread will NOT DIE until my car is either running or towed to the salvage yard!!

Rick in Ohio

Originally Posted by rv6rick

Will keep everyone posted here as WHEN 'we' find the problem I know this will help others down the road. If you beat me to it then I'll give you a nickel.....If I get mine first then you owe me :^)!

Rick in Ohio

Here's a pic of the front of the harmonic dampener. You can see the 'pin' at about the 2 o'clock position but I think the woodruff key is behind the center washer and bolt.



This is the pic of the intake that Roberto asked me to post. This was taken through the front of the throttle body. The horizontal 'line' in the pic is the butterfly in the wide open position. It was held open with a screwdriver stuck through the linkage while I took the pic. This pic saved me a TON of work and I'm very grateful for that!!



Rick in Ohio

A. You're waiting on the CPS (crankshaft position sensor) and not the CCV. I'm making this clarification because I suspect noobs will be referred to this thread many times over the months to do some basic reading and then ask intelligent questions, to see if they really wish to tackle the problem or are just venting for its own sake.

A2. Please advise if your CPS is an OEM unit. If not, get another one, assure them that you'll send this one back once you receive it, however, if you can test it on the car after finding some way to avoid scruffing it around then do so first before sending it on back.

B. The first picture - vibration damper - if the woodruff key is behind that, this is going to be way less than straightforward. You'll need a torque wrench amongst other things, and it might be a smart move to have a new woodruff key standing by (if its not expensive) and have that swopped in even if the old one is fine, to maximise all the work that you're doing. This assumes that replacing the key is a relatively straightforward process. Please google for that info (or call BMW back for another free consult, they should oblige since they've been useless so far).

C. The second picture shows oil pooling at the rear. You might be able to mop that up with a sufficiently long and firm probe ( the magnetic pickup comes to mind) wrapped in paper towels or cloth. If anything falls apart (take another picture and inspect), use a pair of metal tongs to extract it. Or, if you judge that the ccv plate needs to be changed (more likely the gasket and not the plate itself) then you can wait to clean that up at that point. Or you can remove it first to clean the oil and then reinstall with an appropriate gasket sealant for a temporary fix. For something like this, clear silicone window sealant or a combo of that and rtv gasket sealant should suffice as a temporary fix. Again, this should not be a contributing factor for the no-start situation, as the oil cannot accumulate and worsen during the week long shutdown (oil vapours get channeled up while the engine is running), and your car was running perfectly fine, without even a hint of a driveability issue, before your vacation.

D. My strong suggestion would be to get someone to crank the car at full speed without the fp fuse in, and you eyeball and simultaneously video the vibration damper to see if there's anything weird going on. Hold it and yank it around from several different angles. Basically, see if you can find any fault with it. This should be done with the current cps reinstalled.

E. Please keep a zen state and an open mind as you approach this situation, to permit ideas to occur to you, both new ideas on what to do, and ideas on how to do something already planned in an even better manner. The zen state also enables you to make other observations about your car that may not be related to this issue but are worth knowing eg now you know you need to fix the ccv system, perhaps you'll notice some piping that is nearly busted, belts which need to be changed, whatever. All of these are important noticements and can help you solve problems or optimise your car during this long interval. You'll feel far more productive about the downtime when it is all over.

F. You might want to consider bringing forward some other downtime work that you had planned for the near future, such as changing the WP, thermostat, fan clutch, radiator, etc....basically to maximise the downtime that you have now. A great way to turn a repair into a servicing, or an upgrade.

G. All of this assumes that you're going to get your car up and running. If you are not on board with that completely, its going to be very difficult to get out of this particular slipstream, considering its apparent complications. You will not have the correct mindset to lose battles along the way and yet ultimately win the war.

Good luck.



rgds,
Roberto

Took another look at that picture. Looks like alot of oil sir. One sharp left turn to impress the ladies and there's a good chance the right bank will get a sudden flood. I think you ought to take of the rear ccv plate and drain that out properly. Reuse the same plate with a new gasket or substitute with good gasket sealant - you're clearly experienced enough to innovate appropriately.

http://www.mazda-madness.co.uk/2010/...-woodruff-key/

I think Steve has likely found the culprit in your car, Rick.

There is scanty information on DIYs but I've not looked too deeply. Here are two :

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1511281

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e34...gd55450-4.html

They are certainly within the scope of your personal expertise as far as I can judge it, but the 2 woodruff keys (wkeys ) would constitute semi-major work on the engine.

I have hope that it isn't. This stuff does not go bust. It seems to only go bust due to impact damage and poor manufacture....and our cars have no history of this.

And it appears that when it does, it does so progressively and the engine will feel different along the way. Rick, did you notice anything different in your engine's behaviour in the past 12 months? Its probably the crankshaft position sensor. We've merely found a new and unique way that the cps causes problems. Rick, please send your cps to the E34 hall of infamy.



rgds,
Roberto

You haven't found anything yet The car still isn't running despite all the crazy antics and quadruple checking everything, with at least two posts per check

I think it is highly unlikely the key in the balancer has failed. That is extremely rare.

You need to get back to why it doesn't fire when the fuel squirts. The possibility of a bad CPS sounds promising, hopefully that fixes it.

Originally Posted by snowsled7

I think it is highly unlikely the key in the balancer has failed. That is extremely rare.

I agree. I was just throwing that out there as a last ditch possibility.

OP can you post a video clip of how your going about your diagnosis and particularly when you are cranking or turning it over ...

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My video quality would be very poor.....but....take ALL of your spark wires off.....then crank your engine. This is exactly what mine sounds like!

Rick in Ohio

Originally Posted by supertech777

OP can you post a video clip of how your going about your diagnosis and particularly when you are cranking or turning it over ...

Sent from my Desire HD using Bimmer App

OK.....2 things.

1-When I looked at the intake manifold photo on my iPhone it looked clean as a whistle. When I posted it here and went back and looked I DO see the reflection in the back of the sump and that must be oil. I'll clean that out as suggested but won't it just come back again? This is from a borderline Crankcase Ventilation Valve correct? Maybe I should replace that bad boy after all??

2-I brought home my good Fluke multi-meter today and I just checked the OHM's on the Crank Position Sensor.....drum roll please..........It's supposted to read 1280 +or-10% and it reads a whoppin' 498. For kicks I brought it in the house and put it under hot water and it slowly walked up but only peaked out at 570 OHM's. This tells me that Roberto's trick of pouring the hot water on a bad CPS might work if it was only a little out of whack.

THE BIG QUESTION - Is it possible that the crank sensor is throwing off the timing of the spark?

So....we FINALLY found something wrong with the car. My new Crank Sensor will be here tomorrow and I'll verify the OHM's on it then will install it in the car and cross my fingers when I crank it over.

I also checked the OHM's on the cam sensor and it is at 1210 so it should be OK. I thought about putting it where the CPS is but thought I could wait one more day for the new one.

I'll check back tomorrow and maybe be able to put this klunker to rest. If not it will rest permenant at SIX FEET UNDER.....ha ha.

Rick in Ohio

Originally Posted by rv6rick

OK.....2 things.

1-When I looked at the intake manifold photo on my iPhone it looked clean as a whistle. When I posted it here and went back and looked I DO see the reflection in the back of the sump and that must be oil. I'll clean that out as suggested but won't it just come back again? This is from a borderline Crankcase Ventilation Valve correct? Maybe I should replace that bad boy after all??

2-I brought home my good Fluke multi-meter today and I just checked the OHM's on the Crank Position Sensor.....drum roll please..........It's supposted to read 1280 +or-10% and it reads a whoppin' 498. For kicks I brought it in the house and put it under hot water and it slowly walked up but only peaked out at 570 OHM's. This tells me that Roberto's trick of pouring the hot water on a bad CPS might work if it was only a little out of whack.

So....we FINALLY found something wrong with the car. My new Crank Sensor will be here tomorrow and I'll verify the OHM's on it then will install it in the car and cross my fingers when I crank it over.

I also checked the OHM's on the cam sensor and it is at 1210 so it should be OK. I thought about putting it where the CPS is but thought I could wait one more day for the new one.

I'll check back tomorrow and maybe be able to put this klunker to rest. If not it will rest permenant at SIX FEET UNDER.....ha ha.

Rick in Ohio

I don't know how to break this to you Rick, .... but your CPS is actually within specs. The Bentley manual had a misprint. It should be 540 +/- 10%. Here is the actual link to the correction from Bentley:

https://wiki.bentleypublishers.com/d...specifications

Note that at the top is specifies for the 6 and 8 cylinder engines.

Sorry to bust your bubble. Sitll, I would check the resistance on the new one as well.

UH OH....that's not good.

My manual reads:

M20/M30 engines: 540 ohms

M50/M60 engines: 1280 ohms

I'm guessing this could be a bad sign....WHY would mine be bad and be almost exactly HALF of a good one?

I'm putting the new one in either way.

I won't ask what do I do now....will just wait till tomorrow and report back.

Rick in Ohio

Originally Posted by BMR_LVR

I don't know how to break this to you Rick, .... but your CPS is actually within specs. The Bentley manual had a misprint. It should be 540 +/- 10%. Here is the actual link to the correction from Bentley:

https://wiki.bentleypublishers.com/d...specifications

Sorry to bust your bubble. Sitll, I would check the resistance on the new one as well.

EDIT: Rick, I reviewed the original Bentley manual and it had a different ohm speck for the 540 CPS. I also reviewed the Bently correction that I posted again and notice that it does not seperate that M60 from the M50, it just sas 540 ohms +/- 10% for all of them. I know for a fact that the M50 is supposed to be 540 +/- 10%, but I have never dealt with one from an M60. Based on this review, I'm not as confident in the above information, however, if you ohm out the new one and it is also 540ish, then that will confirm it. I did look up the CPS on realoem and the 540 has a differnet part # than the 525. Please do let us know what the new CPS ohms out at. I do however, still think that the correction is for the 540 CPS as well.

Originally Posted by rv6rick

UH OH....that's not good.

My manual reads:

M20/M30 engines: 540 ohms

M50/M60 engines: 1280 ohms

I'm guessing this could be a bad sign....WHY would mine be bad and be almost exactly HALF of a good one?

I'm putting the new one in either way.

I won't ask what do I do now....will just wait till tomorrow and report back.

Rick in Ohio

Yeah. I tried to catch a nina edit on my edit above, but was too slow. After looking at the Bentley correction further, it specifies at the top that it applies to the 6 and 8 cylinder engines. So yeah, your CPS is within specs. Normally that would be cause to celebrate, but not in your case. Again, please let us know what the new one ohms out at. Sorry for being so back and forth, I just like to make sure that what I post is correct, especially when I'm trying to help someone.

OK thanks. Just did a little googling and I'm finding the same thing....that it should 540 +or-10% so that would mean mine is 'OK. That really stinks!

So if that is the case where should I look next?

Rick in Ohio

Originally Posted by BMR_LVR

Yeah. I tried to catch a nina edit on my edit above, but was too slow. After looking at the Bentley correction further, it specifies at the top that it applies to the 6 and 8 cylinder engines. So yeah, your CPS is within specs. Normally that would be cause to celebrate, but not in your case. Again, please let us know what the new one ohms out at. Sorry for being so back and forth, I just like to make sure that what I post is correct, especially when I'm trying to help someone.

Originally Posted by rv6rick

OK thanks. Just did a little googling and I'm finding the same thing....that it should 540 +or-10% so that would mean mine is 'OK. That really stinks!

So if that is the case where should I look next?

Rick in Ohio

Honestly, I'm pretty much at a loss at this point. My woodruff key theory is really out there, but I really can't think of much else. It may be time to bite the bullet and take it to a good independent BMW mechanic

When the solution is found, it will probably make us all slap our forehead and go

If cranking the car and it sounds like the plugs are out of it then there is no compression , I would look and see if the rocker arms are moving when you crank the engine and if it doesnt then you have a busted chain , note look at both banks . My 2 cents

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It doesn't sound like there are no plugs. It cranks the same as if the plugs were disconnected.....meaning the plug wires were removed.

I checked the chains through the oil filler neck and they were OK.

Thanks for your help....I appreciate it very much.

I still have a bit of hope that the CPS will be the fix but it has deminised since the possibility of a misprint in the manual.

If it's not running tomorrow night then I'm giving it way. Too bad cause I just stuck 4 new tires on it. I'm guessing the car is only worth $1500 bucks at best anyway. What a shame as I have the sales slip for it and it was almost $49,000 new before tax.

Rick in Ohio

Originally Posted by supertech777

If cranking the car and it sounds like the plugs are out of it then there is no compression , I would look and see if the rocker arms are moving when you crank the engine and if it doesnt then you have a busted chain , note look at both banks . My 2 cents

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