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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #51  
Old 01-07-2013, 07:36 AM
petee1997 petee1997 is offline
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
Its basically the same it was 10 years ago and even in this iteration, its in the 3 or 4th year... Ours not just me, one of the car magazines just did the 4 Door Coupe comparison. They said the same thing. Funny though, CLS won because of the 20K difference.
The first CLS was offered in the US Jan. 2005. The second generation was introduced in the summer of 2011. It is now in its' second year.

As far as the command system, it is far easier to use than the BMW. I have had both.

Now, in my second month of ownership, I am extremely happy with the car and have no regrets not buying the 650i. What I like most, is that the car has very distinctive styling which sets it apart from every other MB. Secondly it is a low volume car and I don't see myself at every street corner.

Part of my reluctance buying a BMW is that all of the models look alike except for the length. Only an enthusiast can tell them apart.
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  #52  
Old 01-07-2013, 07:41 AM
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MB did not build a CLS 10 years ago. This new generation car is only on it's second year.

As far as the command system, it is far easier to use than the BMW. I have had both.
Sorry - 9 years ago. First model was a MY2004.
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  #53  
Old 01-07-2013, 11:00 AM
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Just looking for Audi vs BMW, not motherships, but thanks.
I don't have the global data, but BMW sells ~4x more cars globally than Audi. In the US, Audi by design only ships 20% of the cars BMW ships here. This is one of the reasons Audi is in demand and that they don't budge on negotiations. I would not hesitate to buy an Audi for my next car. An brand new S8 has the space next to mine in my work building. It is sweet.
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  #54  
Old 01-07-2013, 11:52 AM
petee1997 petee1997 is offline
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I don't have the global data, but BMW sells ~4x more cars globally than Audi. In the US, Audi by design only ships 20% of the cars BMW ships here. This is one of the reasons Audi is in demand and that they don't budge on negotiations. I would not hesitate to buy an Audi for my next car. An brand new S8 has the space next to mine in my work building. It is sweet.
Better check your numbers. You are far out on this one.
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  #55  
Old 01-07-2013, 12:06 PM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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I think he meant BMW's sales is 4 times the Audi's in the US.

Globally, the 2012 numbers are not out yet, but in 2011, Audi sold 1.30 million units, compared with 1.38 million BMWs and 1.26 million at Mercedes-Benz.
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  #56  
Old 01-07-2013, 12:50 PM
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My bad. Yes, I meant the U.S. I don't have the global data, but your numbers surprise me X Men. Wonder why Audi doesn't compete more here.
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  #57  
Old 01-07-2013, 03:01 PM
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My bad. Yes, I meant the U.S.
This statement is still complete crap. BMW doesn't sell 4x as much as Audi in the US. They haven't in a long long time.

Going by your poor math, BMW sold ~281k cars in the US in 2012. That would mean Audi moved about 70k units, which is wrong. They moved 140k units this year.

Quote:
Wonder why Audi doesn't compete more here.
Supply, supply, supply. Go try to buy an Audi Q7, A7, A6, Q5, etcThere aren't many on the lots around here and supply is tight. If you want to order one, you have to wait months. And you get little discount. Not the easy ~$10k off sticker, you can achieve with BMW. Supply to North America is limited. They send it to Europe, etc. Their larger markets.

Not to mention, BMW/MB/Lexus/Acura, etc all have North American production facilities that help inventory here. Audi doesn't. They have to rely on Europe. You can order an X5 and get it within a month. Q7? 3-4 months minimum.

Once the Mexican factory is done, volume will go up tremendously because the Q5, etc will start to be built there.

Audi is not pushing volume in North America, like MB and BMW. They are keeping profits up. This also translates to higher resale values, compared to BMW/MB.

Worldwide Audi is very close to BMW. We don't have 2012 #s yet though.
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  #58  
Old 01-07-2013, 03:02 PM
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My bad. Yes, I meant the U.S. I don't have the global data, but your numbers surprise me X Men. Wonder why Audi doesn't compete more here.
I think two or three years ago, the A6 actually out sell the 5 series and E-class globally, I am not sure what the numbers are for those cars now.
I think Audi need to rebuilt its reputation in the US market. Audi's bad reputation mainly stem from their pass history of bad reliability, the coil pack issues in the past and the sudden acceleration decades ago. Couple that with the lack of dealerships, no high performance RWD models in their lineup and the perception of being less of a prestigious brand than Mercedes and BMW is what’s slowing down US sales.
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  #59  
Old 01-07-2013, 03:22 PM
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Audi in my view is held back in terms of volume in the US as it's supply constrained here. Audi diverts more product elsewhere, BMW and MB divert more product here. Audi is selling all the cars it can build, it's just not able to build enough of them. BMW and Audi both build cars here in the US, Audi doesn't and that hurts their ability to supply here.
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  #60  
Old 01-07-2013, 04:39 PM
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I always thought they were mainly a one trick pony.. the A4. The Porsche dealer in my area is also the Audi dealer. I am a long time customer of the Porsche side of the business and they always have A6 and A8's around but they are not very popular...yet. The SUV business is brisk.

As for myself, Audi is never on my radar. It's MB or BMW.
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  #61  
Old 01-07-2013, 05:59 PM
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I like the Audis. Truth be told if they had better lease rates, I would be driving an S5. To me It goes back to my point about BMW understanding the American leasing market much better than Audi and offering better residuals and money factors like BMW and MB.
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  #62  
Old 01-07-2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe-BMW View Post
I don't have the global data, but BMW sells ~4x more cars globally than Audi. In the US, Audi by design only ships 20% of the cars BMW ships here. This is one of the reasons Audi is in demand and that they don't budge on negotiations. I would not hesitate to buy an Audi for my next car. An brand new S8 has the space next to mine in my work building. It is sweet.
Audi offers incentives and their prices negotiable, but that's my own personal experience. I got a pretty sweet deal on an A6 back in 04. In 10, I was offered $25k off a new R8 that had been sitting in the showroom. They also had an S6 at $10k off.
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  #63  
Old 01-08-2013, 05:52 AM
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A year ago I was in an Audi dealer trying to square a deal on an A8 and they really wouldn't budge. The sales rep told me that Audi ships 20% of the cars to the US that BMW does. Hence my tilde ~ on the ~4X. I also bought a Q7 a few years ago and had to order it. The inventories on the Audi lots is low. I am clearly not as passionate as some of you about the global metrics (or care that much), just the eye ball test and prior experiences to support my comments. Bottom line, BMW and MB ship a ****load more cars here than Audi. I also wouldn't hesitate to buy an Audi as my next car.
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  #64  
Old 01-08-2013, 10:19 AM
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BMW and MB tends to overstock the US market and end up giving out deep discounts and incentive, kind of like the US auto maker's businees model. Audi on the other hand do not flood the market and usually do not offer deep discounts and incentive.
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  #65  
Old 01-08-2013, 10:23 AM
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BMW and MB tends to overstock the US market and end up giving out deep discounts and incentive, kind of like the US auto maker's businees model. Audi on the other hand do not flood the market and usually do not offer deep discounts and incentive.
You say that like its buy design? Probably just a lack of production ability.
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  #66  
Old 01-08-2013, 10:44 AM
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You say that like its buy design? Probably just a lack of production ability.
I think it is "by" design and I think its working. Audi has been #3 to BMW and MB in the US for quite some time. They have slowly caught up in terms of prestige in the market they want. I work with a lot of people that drive high end cars. There's just as much Audi metal in the garage as BMW and MB. That was not the case 10 years ago when Audi was the poor man's German luxury car. Let's face it, VW owns Audi and if they wanted to ship more cars here they easily could. Audi is doing everything right. There are plenty on the road, but not as flooded as BMW's. When every fifth car on the highway is a 3 or 5 series and then an A5, 6 or 7 goes by it kind of catches your eye.
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  #67  
Old 01-08-2013, 11:10 AM
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You say that like its buy design? Probably just a lack of production ability.
Its more of a company's business model than lack of production ability. Audi is owned by VW, it has the finanial ability to open up more factories and increase production, rather if they want to or not is another story.
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:21 AM
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I think it is "by" design and I think its working. Audi has been #3 to BMW and MB in the US for quite some time. They have slowly caught up in terms of prestige in the market they want. I work with a lot of people that drive high end cars. There's just as much Audi metal in the garage as BMW and MB. That was not the case 10 years ago when Audi was the poor man's German luxury car. Let's face it, VW owns Audi and if they wanted to ship more cars here they easily could. Audi is doing everything right. There are plenty on the road, but not as flooded as BMW's. When every fifth car on the highway is a 3 or 5 series and then an A5, 6 or 7 goes by it kind of catches your eye.
I agree. I'm not a big Audi fan at all but it's very respectable and "prestigious" how they focus on maintaining margins and a controlled inventory, therefore not flooding the markets with deeply discounts models who's msrp have turned to jokes. As far as cachet and a premium aura go, Audi is doing well to quickly change U.S consumer sentiment toward it for those very reasons. Having the VW umbrella over them allows them to not have to nickel and dime themselves to move adequate units.
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  #69  
Old 01-08-2013, 12:28 PM
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Its more of a company's business model than lack of production ability. Audi is owned by VW, it has the finanial ability to open up more factories and increase production, rather if they want to or not is another story.
Yes, VW had tons of surplus cash to throw around to build a factory (and they've started in Mexico), but VW doesn't directly control Audi, like GM does with Cadillac or Honda does with Acura. All of the brands under the VAG umbrella have their own upper management and board. Not a centralized one like GM. This basically means that VW doesn't have too much say in Audi (or Porsche), they run themselves.

Of course, ultimately, big projects like a factory have to be green lighted by the central VAG management.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:30 PM
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I agree. I'm not a big Audi fan at all but it's very respectable and "prestigious" how they focus on maintaining margins and a controlled inventory, therefore not flooding the markets with deeply discounts models who's msrp have turned to jokes.
Finally, someone had to say it. No reason to inflate your MSRP and flood the market with cars that ultimately get discounted by thousands. Just lower the price and stop incentivizing everything.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe-BMW View Post
I think it is "by" design and I think its working. Audi has been #3 to BMW and MB in the US for quite some time. They have slowly caught up in terms of prestige in the market they want. I work with a lot of people that drive high end cars. There's just as much Audi metal in the garage as BMW and MB.
This is a good point. I live in Boston (by Brookline), and Audis are dime a dozen, just like BMWs and Mercedes.

This was most definitely not the case 10 or so years ago.
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:23 PM
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Yes, VW had tons of surplus cash to throw around to build a factory (and they've started in Mexico), but VW doesn't directly control Audi, like GM does with Cadillac or Honda does with Acura. All of the brands under the VAG umbrella have their own upper management and board. Not a centralized one like GM. This basically means that VW doesn't have too much say in Audi (or Porsche), they run themselves.

Of course, ultimately, big projects like a factory have to be green lighted by the central VAG management.
Very healthy discussion. I like when boards are kind and friendly and debates are interesting. I do think VW has a bigger influence than you think though. Sure, they operate independently to ensure that the brands appear to be separate and distinguished (like when Chrysler owned MB). But as with GM, VW and Audi's share the same platforms. The Passatt is the A6, the Toureg is the Q7 (and Cayneene). They like to make you think it's all separate P&L's, but at the end of the day, I wrote my checks to VW Financial for my Q7. If VW wanted Audi to saturate the US Audi inventory, they would bend over and take it as an order.
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:34 PM
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Very healthy discussion. I like when boards are kind and friendly and debates are interesting. I do think VW has a bigger influence than you think though. Sure, they operate independently to ensure that the brands appear to be separate and distinguished (like when Chrysler owned MB). But as with GM, VW and Audi's share the same platforms. The Passatt is the A6, the Toureg is the Q7 (and Cayneene). They like to make you think it's all separate P&L's, but at the end of the day, I wrote my checks to VW Financial for my Q7. If VW wanted Audi to saturate the US Audi inventory, they would bend over and take it as an order.
Weird. My Q7 checks were written to AudiFS.

The Audi A6 is NOT based on the Passat and hasn't been for over a long time The Q7, Treg, Cayenne share a platform, but aren't direct badge jobs, like most GM cars. They all are completely distinct. The A3 and TT share the Golf platform, but that's about it. Everything else is bespoke Audi.
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:43 PM
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Audi and VW is suppose to have their own engineering department and upper managment, looking at the similarities of their technologies and platforms, I am not so sure if thats true anymore. Perhaps VW and Audi too have given into the increasing pressure of cost cutting. It only make sense dollars wise, it makes for a better car at a lower price. BMW is doing the same with the 5 series, it share components with the 7 series and Bentley.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:27 PM
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Its more of a company's business model than lack of production ability. Audi is owned by VW, it has the finanial ability to open up more factories and increase production, rather if they want to or not is another story.
I think Audi just made the decision to be a major player in a larger market, that being China. They made a concerted effort to build plants and put the production into China. This was during the down turn.

Now that those factories in China are producing and selling well in China, they came back around and now are concentrating their efforts in North America. I agree that lack of availability has kept the discounts to a minimum, but I think this has more to do with the dealers than Audi - wouldn't you agree? Don't they sell the cars to the dealer at a set "invoice" price regardless what the dealer gets?

I think if you asked audi to reduce their margins slightly, but sell another 20,000 cars - they might be pretty happy. Again, just my 2 cents.
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