How much quieter without runflats?

Originally Posted by azbimmer

Then you go ahead and change the OEM Rims to 20". How's that for consistency?

You're wrong on this. They are OEM 20s. This size comes on the sport package usually (standalone option in my case on the 2012 ActiveHybrid for $1300).

I chose them due to the excellent roads in North Dallas. For my 2011 M3, when I was in Northern California, I stuck with the standard 18s.

Originally Posted by chrischeung

I would doubt that. Because if that was the case why wouldn't others like Toyota do it? Tire manufacturers could probably lower costs if MORE companies used the tires. BMW is the only one concerned about money? I honestly think it costs BMW more to fit run flats than not. Again, nothing concrete, but if run flats are more as replacements, are they not more as originals? The other thing is, does this really hurt BMW? Lower sales? Lower JD Power sat scores?

One thing I could see happening, is that they may think that the technology is getting better, and they already have committed significant time and resources to this path - they hope that the gap will close quickly enough before it really impacts sales. It may be more costly to go back to non-RFTs. They would have to equip their cars with space saver storage etc. That is likely only possible with a new or major redesign. Sort of like how iDrive worked out - initially poor, but with development, it became acceptable.

Run flat tires are quite a bit more expensive than other tires. In 2013 if you have a flat on RFT you have the ability to drive up to 100 miles to a dealer. The problem is that no local tire stores carry RFT's only BMW dealers. If you are in the middle of no where you can't get a replacement. As you know there is law that prohibits repair of RFT's so even a small nail puncture means a new tire is necessary. On other threads there are stories of our members getting stuck over night waiting for a tire or having a tow to BMW.

My point is that BMW has a cottage industry on RFT's. This may be good ancillary income for them. Plus they don't need to provide a fifth wheel and tire. For now these make the dealer money. As to why Toyota does not use these? I know when I was driving a Toyota I could not afford the cost. Some day they may make a run flat with noise and comfort equal to a non run flat but for now there are only down sides(except for the peace of mind which erodes the drive quality)

Originally Posted by jprescott

As to why Toyota does not use these? I know when I was driving a Toyota I could not afford the cost.

Sorry bad example - I chose Toyota since I know they don't use RFT. Replace Toyota with "other brands", and you could say "other luxury brands".

Originally Posted by azbimmer

And since you are so biased against standard tires, why waste everyone's time with posts against Non RFTs?

Because I am not as knowledgeable as others. I'm here to learn. I have my own opinion which I'm open to changing.

I can tell the difference between say a Lexus or Benz to my BMW. I can tell you that my M3 on 18s on the same roads in North Dallas, had a slightly quieter and smoother ride than my 7 series. But I couldn't tell you that it was due to RFT or the fact that my 7 series has 20" wheels as opposed to the 18s (in hindsight I would have probably got 19s on the M3).

Personally, other than the bump harshness, I can't tell if a car is on RFT or not. Put me in a 3 series, on a perfectly flat road, and take a corner - I could not tell you that the car has RFT or not. Drive it down a perfect freeway, and based on the noise, I again could not tell you what type of tire it has. I'm not a auto engineer, expert, but an enthusiast open to learning more.

I guess what I'm overall trying to say, that for some folks, similar to me, who don't use their car to the max, I'm of the opinion that the cost and cons of going non-RFT (I'm also leasing), are not overridden by the pros, which I admit are clear, and which I don't dispute. It's the degree of the benefit that I'm not convinced of. Put into that bucket things like the B&O sound system, rear comfort seats.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...*****them.html



"What are customers saying?


Even with tougher rubber, run flat tires do wear out quicker than regular tires. Many owners on the AutoGuide Forum Network complained that they were replacing their OEM run-flat tires within 20,000 miles. This prompted a lawsuit, which was settled by BMW and Bridgestone. Members of the settlement will receive a full refund for the purchase of replacement tires if they were needed before 10,000 miles. If replacement occurred between 10,000 miles up through 30,000 miles, reimbursement will be 50 percent or less. If buyers are experiencing wear at around 20,000 miles, that’s less than half the life of an ordinary tire.

Customers though, haven’t responded well to these types of tires. Honda has stopped offering the tires on its vehicles after settling a class action lawsuit last year. The owners of Acura’s RL, and Honda Odysseys claimed unreasonable tire life and unexpectedly high replacement costs.

Run flat tires may have their advantages, but it still seems like their many compromises are stopping the equipment from taking off. BMW and MINI vehicles get them as standard equipment, and owners (especially enthusiasts) are not happy with them. Vanessa Terrier from Bridgestone’s Communications team mentioned that “As of today, the run flat tire market is mainly driven by car manufacturers and original equipment.”

If you’re afraid, or uncomfortable with the idea of replacing a punctured tire with a spare, then the run flat tires are made just for you, but beware of the added costs of ownership. And if you’re convinced that the disadvantages outweigh the benefits, be weary of cars that come equipped with them from the factory, as a non-run flat replacement tire that was never designed for the car might bring with it unique disadvantages."

The rears on my 2008 535i Bridgestone RFTs went at about 17-18K miles from memory. I was semi aggressive with that car on public roads. The fronts lasted to 20K with just enough marginal rubber for lease turn in at the 20K month mark (2 year lease). I replaced the rears with a set from eBay since I was close to turn in. I admit that rubber wear (like fuel economy, insurance rates) is not one of the things I pay much attention to.

It is just silly to say that BMW engineered their suspension for RFT's (unless somebody can actually deliver specifics).

I seem to recall that they first offered RFT's originally in Germany under the banner of safety and most of the safety points were related to changing of the tires, not the actual driving characteristics.

This is my first time experience with RFT's and they are as bad as everyone claims they are. No excuse. I assume that there is a certain amount of stubbornness on BMW's side to change things.

And some practical ones. Compared to the S-Class, the BMW already has a smaller trunk and redesign for a spare will take some space and more weight.

But we used to have a Mercedes SL55 which had no spare either; a staggered set of performance tires and just a tire kit and pump in the trunk. Worked for me then and will work for the BMW

Originally Posted by Wolfman64

It is just silly to say that BMW engineered their suspension for RFT's (unless somebody can actually deliver specifics).

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...ireRepair.aspx

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=22 - "Vehicle manufacturers understand that there is little reason to spend millions of dollars developing the ride and handling qualities of a new vehicle's suspension if they are going to omit integrating the influence of its Original Equipment tires...Only the vehicle manufacturer and tire manufacturer working together to develop the OE tire can determine exactly which tire design and internal construction will produce the most satisfactory results. A tire manufacturer who builds "all-purpose" replacement tires will never receive the benefit of the vehicle manufacturer's insight and intent, and is relegated to producing "average" tires."

http://www.imakenews.com/knauzbmw/e_....cfm?x=b11,0,w - "Q. Is there a fundamental difference between BMW Approved Tires and similar models without the star?
Tires with the BMW star have been designed and manufactured specifically for a particular BMW model. These tires can be very different from those offered by independent tire dealers, even if the tire has a similar or identical type designation and outward appearance. It is primarily the tire's internal engineering that distinguishes it from its unmarked counterparts. See the diagram above for details on the construction of BMW Approved Tires."

I think it's not unusual for cars to be developed with specific tires. Ferrari is another example - http://www.ferrari.com/English/Servi...iTyresSet.aspx.

Recently the Ferrari 458 debuted with a specific developed tire for it. - http://www.edmunds.com/ferrari/458-i...road-test.html "The 20-inch Michelin Pilot Sport tires have been specially tuned for this car."

Here is an example where the "star" actually shows a different tread pattern for the same make and model tire - http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ong-tires.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...e-same-9890716 - "A pair of tires aren't necessarily the same even if they're from the same manufacturer, have an identical model name, are of the same size, and are visually indistinguishable. Mixing our identical twins on one car will make it diabolical in urgent handling maneuvers and likely make the vehicle feel odd in everyday driving. "

That's what I have read - I have no idea how accurate any of the above is or not.

Originally Posted by chrischeung

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...ireRepair.aspx

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=22 - "Vehicle manufacturers understand that there is little reason to spend millions of dollars developing the ride and handling qualities of a new vehicle's suspension if they are going to omit integrating the influence of its Original Equipment tires...Only the vehicle manufacturer and tire manufacturer working together to develop the OE tire can determine exactly which tire design and internal construction will produce the most satisfactory results. A tire manufacturer who builds "all-purpose" replacement tires will never receive the benefit of the vehicle manufacturer's insight and intent, and is relegated to producing "average" tires."

http://www.imakenews.com/knauzbmw/e_....cfm?x=b11,0,w - "Q. Is there a fundamental difference between BMW Approved Tires and similar models without the star?
Tires with the BMW star have been designed and manufactured specifically for a particular BMW model. These tires can be very different from those offered by independent tire dealers, even if the tire has a similar or identical type designation and outward appearance. It is primarily the tire's internal engineering that distinguishes it from its unmarked counterparts. See the diagram above for details on the construction of BMW Approved Tires."

I think it's not unusual for cars to be developed with specific tires. Ferrari is another example - http://www.ferrari.com/English/Servi...iTyresSet.aspx.

Recently the Ferrari 458 debuted with a specific developed tire for it. - http://www.edmunds.com/ferrari/458-i...road-test.html "The 20-inch Michelin Pilot Sport tires have been specially tuned for this car."

Here is an example where the "star" actually shows a different tread pattern for the same make and model tire - http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ong-tires.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...e-same-9890716 - "A pair of tires aren't necessarily the same even if they're from the same manufacturer, have an identical model name, are of the same size, and are visually indistinguishable. Mixing our identical twins on one car will make it diabolical in urgent handling maneuvers and likely make the vehicle feel odd in everyday driving. "

That's what I have read - I have no idea how accurate any of the above is or not.

While this is interesting, I am not sure that any really applies to the RFT versus non-RFT conversation.

I do admit that I am a long-time Mercedes driver, but I can say that they slap on whatever brand gives them best deal that year. For the SL, I bought cars with Pirelli's P-Zeros, Bridgestone's RE050's and Michelin Super Sports (very cool tires btw.) and all of these were 100% exchangeable.
Clearly each tire had a different performance dynamics, but all were obviously Mercedes approved.

This was the case across AMG and non-AMG models.

I would strike me odd that BMW has some secret sauce for their standard (non-M) cars than any other German car maker.

My 2cents

Perhaps the BMW switch to RFT's is related to the availability of 4 wheel drive across their model lines and the way they decided to engineer/package the body structure of their cars. Its probably cheaper to not design spare tire space and to eliminate its related components. Benefits to economy of production probably outweighs RFT's negatives. Coming from the E66 model, I think the added road noise/harshness along with less road feel in my F02 is a major downgrade. Hopefully, switching to non RFT's will alleviate the badness. BMW needs to listen to our rants regarding this topic. I personally will not buy another BMW if the negatives of RFT's remain.

Originally Posted by october

I personally will not buy another BMW if the negatives of RFT's remain.

It is an absoulute deal breaker for me. I hate driving around with a slime kit and inflation pump for my non RFT's but I hate RFT's even more. I already passed on an X5 and got my wife an ML based on it. Had the X5 as a loaner and my body and ears felt and heard the difference.

Originally Posted by october

Perhaps the BMW switch to RFT's is related to the availability of 4 wheel drive across their model lines and the way they decided to engineer/package the body structure of their cars. Its probably cheaper to not design spare tire space and to eliminate its related components. Benefits to economy of production probably outweighs RFT's negatives. Coming from the E66 model, I think the added road noise/harshness along with less road feel in my F02 is a major downgrade. Hopefully, switching to non RFT's will alleviate the badness. BMW needs to listen to our rants regarding this topic. I personally will not buy another BMW if the negatives of RFT's remain.

The reason I take the whole "engineering" discussion a bit less serious is that different countries receive different tire packages for the same cars, something that is more likely to be related to legal, regulatory, marketing and logistics issues.

For example, we have the 19" 235-type wheel on our 750li x-drive. In the Germany, it is sold as a staggered setup (just like the rear wheel drive versions in the US), but in the US the x-drives only have a non-staggered tire setup.

Originally Posted by jprescott

It is an absoulute deal breaker for me. I hate driving around with a slime kit and inflation pump for my non RFT's but I hate RFT's even more. I already passed on an X5 and got my wife an ML based on it. Had the X5 as a loaner and my body and ears felt and heard the difference.

Absolutely right, but while I don't mind it in the X5, absolutely do in the 7.

Originally Posted by Wolfman64

For example, we have the 19" 235-type wheel on our 750li x-drive. In the Germany, it is sold as a staggered setup (just like the rear wheel drive versions in the US), but in the US the x-drives only have a non-staggered tire setup.

xDrive models with 20" wheels come staggered.

Originally Posted by dbs600

xDrive models with 20" wheels come staggered.

So where is the logic in that? 19" non-staggered, 20" staggered.

I know there are some suspension and drive-train differences between the models that will pretty much make this opinion unreliable to alot of people on here, but the ride in my current 7 with run flats is a fair amount noisier and bumpier than my 2007 750 with non-RFT's.

I currently have 19" RFT's, and the 2007 had 20" non-RFT's that were extremely low profile.

The general consensus seems to be that run flats absolutely suck, regardless of what BMW thinks of their superiority for whatever reasons. I remember when Lexus came out with the SC430 they had run-flats on it, and everyone complained so much that the manufacturer stopped putting them on the car as standard equipment.

Originally Posted by Wolfman64

So where is the logic in that? 19" non-staggered, 20" staggered.

You'd have to ask them.

Originally Posted by AdamG13

I remember when Lexus came out with the SC430 they had run-flats on it, and everyone complained so much that the manufacturer stopped putting them on the car as standard equipment.

Wow, really? I didn't know that!

Originally Posted by Wolfman64

So where is the logic in that? 19" non-staggered, 20" staggered.

In Europe, and perhaps the USA, you can get 19" staggered or non-staggered with the Xdrive 7er.

Staggered wheels are the "sporty" option. It's supposed to provide more rear wheel grip for oversteer or near situations. It will likely induce more understeer (the rears will grip more). Often a lot of it is about aggressive looks than real world benefits.

For a 4WD application, staggered wheels are less beneficial. That is because the power can be moved front to rear, negating many benefits of staggered tires. Whichever wheels need more power, the 4WD system can redirect - you can't do that with 2WD. The big exception is high performance sports cars, like Nissan GTR, Bugatti, Lamborghini etc. These are essentially more 2WD cars with added 4WD for additional performance, and often drive more as 2WD cars than 4WD cars. This is a very simplified explanation and others can probably point to more detailed articles.

Up until recently, a big component of larger wheels has been updated suspension. Meaning the updated wheels came with updated matched suspension (look at the sport packages for 3 and 5 series). But most recently, and for a longer time on the 7 series, BMW just didn't bother (likely for development costs and lack of customer desire), to offer a sport suspension option on the 7er. Personally, I liked the approach where BMW offered the 2 in harmony.

I replaced my run flats with Bridgestone Potenza 970 AS non run flat tires. They are much smoother and have great feel. I would highly recommend them for anyone that lives in the northern climes. I have the Slime kit with the little compressor in the trunk. I am not a fan of run flat tires.

I ran through my runflats in about 15k miles. I switched to the continental DWS all season tires, extremely quiet, and great soft ride, handling, not so much. I switched to Michelin AS sport plus just before going to the track. Much better handling than the contis and they were not as soft a ride( still great, but a noticible difference). they may bit a bit noiser than the conties, but not much. They handled well enough on the track to emabarass a lot of 3 series, porsches, and a corvette! I did destroy them in two days at the track. They were throwing chunks of rubber by the end of the second day of racing. i think i am going to go to a plus size next time(i have the sport package with 19 inch wheels) i think michelin has a pilot super sport in the plus size for my car.

I was trying to order a set of DWS yesterday, and the tireshop manager highly recommend Toyo Proxes 4 Plus instead, he said they are very similar tires and Toyo cost little less, 1420 VS 1170.

Should I try Toyo?

Originally Posted by chrischeung

In Europe, and perhaps the USA, you can get 19" staggered or non-staggered with the Xdrive 7er.

What bothered me that the same 19" wheel option on the same car was only available as staggered in Germany and only as a non-staggered in the US. No choice.

There is nothing in the way of driving in Germany or the US that would require a different setup, suspension-wise. So it comes back to marketing, logistics, etc...

Nothing wrong with that, I would just wish they stop the BS and offer non-RFT options.

Re. the 2 suspension options, I fully agree with you. We had the H&R sport springs installed and use the SPORT setting. Now I like it

I had runflat 19's before going to non-runflat 21's, and the car drove better, period. Quieter, smoother and even with less rubber it just felt better.

Now I have non-runflat 19's, and again, the car drvies better; smoother, quieter and you can feel it in the steering wheel and the seat. If you have not tried it, your comments regarding the drive are from speculation. Those who have done it, apparently overwhelmingly like the change.

As fate would have it, I had a flat two days after I had the non-runflats on. I contacted BMW via the bmw button, and they were there in 15 minutes with a tire. I was on my way in thirty. Now, when the guy removed the tire, it was totally blown out on the inside of the wheel. And you know what, I didn't even feel it at all. The only way I knew the tire was out was the pressure was down on one wheel so I pulled over and found what appeared to be a low tire. He told me that even if I had a RFT, I may have had major problems driving on the tire anywhere. I drove two miles on the flat tire, no damage to the rim at all, to a more conveneint location.

I use Pirelli P-Zeros. Why not the Contis? Well, I wanted them, but you have to order them and it could take a week or two to get them here, just like the RFT. So why do that to myself? I bought what they would have on the shelf if I had a flat tire. Sounds logical to me.

If you like the drive of the RFT, do nothing. Not knowing how much nicer the drive can be is fine for many. However, now that I know, my car will only have normal tires now.

Happy motoring...

Think through your choice carefully. If you ever need a tire, how long will it take to get one?

Originally Posted by Individual750LI

I was trying to order a set of DWS yesterday, and the tireshop manager highly recommend Toyo Proxes 4 Plus instead, he said they are very similar tires and Toyo cost little less, 1420 VS 1170.

Should I try Toyo?

Originally Posted by BMR2009

If you like the drive of the RFT, do nothing. Not knowing how much nicer the drive can be is fine for many. However, now that I know, my car will only have normal tires now.

Happy motoring...

Ditto that...

Originally Posted by azbimmer

Ditto that...

Its just a PITA knowing when I turn my F02 in, and get another one, that I'll have to go and replace the tires again, sorta annoying. I'd honestly pay a couple hundred bucks as a factory option to get regular tires from the beginning. Oh well.