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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #26  
Old 01-09-2013, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanar200 View Post
@ ductman - did they tell you what are the BMW specs for toe? My printout shows it is 0.03-0.13. Some say it should start at 0.00
Tech explained that if the toe was set that low, then the vehicle could become squirmy at highway speeds.
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  #27  
Old 01-10-2013, 04:50 PM
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  #28  
Old 01-10-2013, 04:54 PM
ktono ktono is offline
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Took mine to BMW to have them verify the alignment specs as it was pulling some to the right and after the specs shared here. It took a lot of discussion with the SA before they agreed to hook it up. Initially they said the tires were all at different pressures which would impact this. Finally they hooked it up and now the total TOE looks worse after even when I specified to be set at .01 - .02. The camber looks WAY off 1.3 on the rear especially. I have no idea what Track Differential, Caster and SAI means and if it is OK.

Please help me understand these numbers prior to returning the loaner in the morning. What specifically should I ask for to change?
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  #29  
Old 01-10-2013, 06:25 PM
ard ard is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktono View Post
Took mine to BMW to have them verify the alignment specs as it was pulling some to the right and after the specs shared here. It took a lot of discussion with the SA before they agreed to hook it up. Initially they said the tires were all at different pressures which would impact this. Finally they hooked it up and now the total TOE looks worse after even when I specified to be set at .01 - .02. The camber looks WAY off 1.3 on the rear especially. I have no idea what Track Differential, Caster and SAI means and if it is OK.

Please help me understand these numbers prior to returning the loaner in the morning. What specifically should I ask for to change?
Your cambers look fine, 1'30" is the target, and you seem to be right there.

I posted in your other thread about the toe. it's like they simply nodded their head when you siad 0.01-0.02 then did a standard BMW "set it in the middle of the range" alignment.

The toe in the rear is worse (according to BMW it is fine, but according to me, worse)

I'd like to have a bit more camber up front, you are on the min range of the spec.

Of course they didnt give you what you asked for on any one of the 4 tires. Did it list 0.01-0.02 on the work order? bet not.

All the other stuff looks fine, IMO

GL

A
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  #30  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:07 PM
ktono ktono is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Your cambers look fine, 1'30" is the target, and you seem to be right there.

I posted in your other thread about the toe. it's like they simply nodded their head when you siad 0.01-0.02 then did a standard BMW "set it in the middle of the range" alignment.

The toe in the rear is worse (according to BMW it is fine, but according to me, worse)

I'd like to have a bit more camber up front, you are on the min range of the spec.

Of course they didnt give you what you asked for on any one of the 4 tires. Did it list 0.01-0.02 on the work order? bet not.

All the other stuff looks fine, IMO

GL

A
Thanks for the quick feedback! Great to know that the toe is worse which is what I specifically talked to them about setting. Argh! I am going to explain to them this fact and request that they set it to the minimum of their range instead of making the total toe worse especially in the rear. Two things come to mind...

1 - Is it worth the principle of the specific toe setting discussion and having it done to my specs?
2 - Should I have them move the front camber closer to 20?

After all it is my set of $1,500+ tires that they have now made worse. I wonder how many hundreds/thousands of miles this setup will now take off of them.
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  #31  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:25 PM
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5seriesHB 5seriesHB is offline
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Post

Here my sheet from Allen tire co
Not a BMW dealership .
This was taken 2 days after purchase
Don't know what heck it says
All all I know is that my steering wheel was off center and car pulled to the right
Rides good now
How does it look to u guys
ARD:tell me the truth!
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  #32  
Old 01-10-2013, 10:03 PM
ard ard is online now
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Originally Posted by 5seriesHB View Post
Here my sheet from Allen tire co
Not a BMW dealership .
This was taken 2 days after purchase
Don't know what heck it says
All all I know is that my steering wheel was off center and car pulled to the right
Rides good now
How does it look to u guys
ARD:tell me the truth!
I always tell you the truth.

The end results of yours look nice an balanced. It was bad to start, esp the front toe. Now your toe is OK in front, a bit more than Id want in the rear (if you look at that, it says the max toe specified in the rear is 1/16, and that you are AT their max. I dont like this, combined with a tire that is cambered. Net result is the inner edge will cord. but, run that with close to zero toe and you will do much better.

IMO between the minimum BMW specd toe, to the maximum, tire mileage can range 40k down to 5-8k.

A
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  #33  
Old 01-10-2013, 10:11 PM
ard ard is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktono View Post
Thanks for the quick feedback! Great to know that the toe is worse which is what I specifically talked to them about setting. Argh! I am going to explain to them this fact and request that they set it to the minimum of their range instead of making the total toe worse especially in the rear. Two things come to mind...

1 - Is it worth the principle of the specific toe setting discussion and having it done to my specs?
2 - Should I have them move the front camber closer to 20?

After all it is my set of $1,500+ tires that they have now made worse. I wonder how many hundreds/thousands of miles this setup will now take off of them.
If it was only 'the principle', eh- there are more battles to fight. It will change your tire life. Especially since you discussed it with them...as I've said before, if you had just bought it in and said 'align it', and then at pickup you wanted to quibble, I'd say your SOL.

However. BMWNA is paying, so they may say 'we just do what BMW recommend, that is the extent of our obligation'... short sighted, nd truly what you are asking IS in the bmw specs.

Well, if they ARE going to have to redo it, might as well get the camber closer to 'target'.

You have a big V8 up there, right? The car will have a tendency to plow corners, rolling the tires and 'exposing' that outer edge- by going to a light camber, the suspension and tire will 'bite' and settle in as it gets loaded on a curve.

HTH

A
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  #34  
Old 01-11-2013, 05:23 AM
ktono ktono is offline
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Just talked with the SA and they are setting the specs to 0.01 - 0.02 for the toe and -10 for the front camber which is half of BMWs target of -20. Overall I will am very pleased by this and the shops efforts to make this correct to MY requested specs. I feel this setup will provide the best tire life.

Thanks for the assistance with this. I will post the final specs once received.
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  #35  
Old 01-11-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktono View Post
Just talked with the SA and they are setting the specs to 0.01 - 0.02 for the toe and -10 for the front camber which is half of BMWs target of -20. Overall I will am very pleased by this and the shops efforts to make this correct to MY requested specs. I feel this setup will provide the best tire life.

Thanks for the assistance with this. I will post the final specs once received.
and report how it drives at highway speeds....
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  #36  
Old 01-11-2013, 09:11 AM
ktono ktono is offline
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Do you have any concerns? I am expecting the pull at highway speeds and "crab" feel at low speeds to be gone.

Will update with specs later and ride after a couple days.
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  #37  
Old 01-11-2013, 12:34 PM
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Nope, I expect it to be fine. But noted ductman was talked out of the 'minimum toe' by an SA too lazy to redo it, claiming it would have issues 'at hghway speed'



A
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  #38  
Old 01-11-2013, 03:28 PM
ktono ktono is offline
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I just drove it home from the dealership and did not notice anything out of the ordinary in stop/go traffic or at highest speeds. Although I was a little distracted with my 5 yr old daughter telling me about her day at school. More isolated time on different toads will tell the true story but initially seems good.

The rear toe was a little lower than expected but both front and rear are close or at the minimum range. The front camber is still pretty low and not at the 10 I specified but I don't think it will hurt given the big V8 as ard mentioned. The tech said that on the X5 the front camber is not adjustable because it does not have control arms...hmmm. Either way I am VERY pleased with the dealer's ability to tune it to MY specs. Others should expect nothing less.

Oh, the SA mentioned the usual survey grading speech and to grad him well. Absolutely!! This dealer has always been good to me. He did say NOT to mention that I "schooled" him with the alignment specs and discussion. For that I have to thank ARD's expertise and follow up in a few threads, MUCH appreciated.

Time will tell as to what the alignment will mean for tire life, but I feel good about where I sit. I also like the precedence that I set with the dealer and my SA.

This forum is truly a blessing to all X5 owners!
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  #39  
Old 01-11-2013, 03:37 PM
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My bimmer was so off when I got it that my steering wheel was 25 degrees left when I was driving straight hahaha
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  #40  
Old 01-11-2013, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Nope, I expect it to be fine. But noted ductman was talked out of the 'minimum toe' by an SA too lazy to redo it, claiming it would have issues 'at hghway speed'



A
Vehicle drives great on the highway, no pulling or tramlining whatsoever, the tech is the one I met with before the alignment who stated that a minimum toe such as .01 would create stability issues on the highway, one thing I did notice is that my rear camber is -1.1 and -1.2 which I believe the -1.1 is out of the BMW spec, will this camber number of -1.1 cause any issue ?
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  #41  
Old 01-11-2013, 07:05 PM
ktono ktono is offline
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Originally Posted by ductman View Post
Vehicle drives great on the highway, no pulling or tramlining whatsoever, the tech is the one I met with before the alignment who stated that a minimum toe such as .01 would create stability issues on the highway, one thing I did notice is that my rear camber is -1.1 and -1.2 which I believe the -1.1 is out of the BMW spec, will this camber number of -1.1 cause any issue ?
Looking at my spec sheet the BMW camber target and range is as follows:

Rear at -1.3 +/- 0.15
Front at -0.20 +/- 0.30

So -1.10 is slightly under the minimum spec for the rear camber. I doubt this will have a noticeable impact but as you know ard's the real expert. I am guessing the back tires will set in a turn a little quicker especially with some load in the back.
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  #42  
Old 01-11-2013, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ktono View Post
Looking at my spec sheet the BMW camber target and range is as follows:

Rear at -1.3 +/- 0.15
Front at -0.20 +/- 0.30

So -1.10 is slightly under the minimum spec for the rear camber. I doubt this will have a noticeable impact but as you know ard's the real expert. I am guessing the back tires will set in a turn a little quicker especially with some load in the back.
You need to recognize that those specs are in 'degrees' and 'minutes'

so the 1 with a little circle, then 30 and a ' symbol is "one degree, thrifty minutes"


Each degree has 60 minutes. So it 1', 2', 3', ....59' then 1degree00'. (no symbol here)

Anyway, your numbers look in spec. The 1deg30min minus 15 minute equates to 1deg15 min...you are spot on it looks like: 1deg30min and 1deg28min.
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  #43  
Old 01-13-2013, 01:16 PM
ktono ktono is offline
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Interesting and why should inspect your vehicle when picking it up from service. Got a TPMS message when leaving church this morning that the RR tire was low. Stopped at the gas station in the same parking lot and checked, it was fine at 36 psi. That's when I noticed a big white scuff on the edge of the rim and a lot of black goop on the lip too.

Looks like they took this tire off, which explains the black bead sealer and possibly the TPMS message without a proper reset. The white scuff is either from the alignment marker head OR the tire machine if they indeed remove the tire. There was no issue with the tire before just the alignment. It does not look like a road rash given the white Teflon scratch.

I am hoping this can be buffed out or should I expect a new tire instead? Anybody with experience on this repair?
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  #44  
Old 01-13-2013, 07:41 PM
Ace88 Ace88 is offline
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Originally Posted by ductman View Post
It was a miracle my tires lasted to 30k especially with a total front toe at .29, never saw such a high positive toe number on the front ? ( 0.63 ) - left front, ( - .035 ) right front ?

My 2012 X5 35d with 2100 miles went in for an alignment check because I started noticing a lot of noise, Hendrick in Charlotte NC said I was WAY out on the toe. Ard a member here suggested the proper numbers but Hendrick had to set it to "factory" specs, which was far away from where I was in settings. My 20" Dunlaps were and still are flat out destroyed.

Something is VERY wrong in BMW's alignment department in Spartanburg SC.
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  #45  
Old 01-13-2013, 07:48 PM
RockChips RockChips is offline
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My 2012 X5 35d with 2100 miles went in for an alignment check because I started noticing a lot of noise, Hendrick in Charlotte NC said I was WAY out on the toe. Ard a member here suggested the proper numbers but Hendrick had to set it to "factory" specs, which was far away from where I was in settings. My 20" Dunlaps were and still are flat out destroyed.

Something is VERY wrong in BMW's alignment department in Spartanburg SC.

As soon as you acquire a car, new or used, you must do an alignment.
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  #46  
Old 05-13-2013, 08:28 AM
RockChips RockChips is offline
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I've done this on every new BMW (>10) and in every instance the factory alignment was out of spec.
Maybe alignment becomes screwed up during shipping.

Last edited by RockChips; 05-13-2013 at 08:41 AM.
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  #47  
Old 05-13-2013, 09:26 AM
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Maybe alignment becomes screwed up during shipping.
Interesting theory as both of our X5's were picked directly at the factory in SC and have not exhibited any symptoms of misalignment. In fact, the tires on our 2010 (Bridgestone Dueler RFT) are still in good tread shape after 40,000 miles and I have no reason to believe I can't get at least another 5,000, maybe up to 10,000 miles out of them.
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  #48  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:30 AM
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. Ard a member here suggested the proper numbers but Hendrick had to set it to "factory" specs, which was far away from where I was in settings.
My specs ARE WITHIN THE BMW SPECS!!!!!

If they tell you 'we can't' they are lying. IMO

The problem is that SC and dealers are lazy...throw it on the rack, if 'green' they're done. They dont want to do any more than the minimum.
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  #49  
Old 05-14-2013, 01:58 AM
amfung amfung is offline
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Made an appointment with dealer to do an alignment under warranty ! SA advises me to come in asap as BMWNA is clamping down on warranty alignment. I don't remember the numbers now but it's only allowed within the first few hundred miles on ownership.
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  #50  
Old 05-14-2013, 05:23 AM
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yahtzee yahtzee is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
My specs ARE WITHIN THE BMW SPECS!!!!!

If they tell you 'we can't' they are lying. IMO

The problem is that SC and dealers are lazy...throw it on the rack, if 'green' they're done. They dont want to do any more than the minimum.
So what are YOUR recommended settings for a proper alignment all the way around...I've seen bits and pieces in threads but how about one thread that shares ALL of your expertise? I am headed to dealership in about 30 mins and would love to have this info....they are checking alignment and redoing if out...Thanks!
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