X5 35d vs. Porsche Cayenne Diesel

Originally Posted by RockChips

What about something between the Touareg and the Cayenne?

The Audi Q7....

It's a very different vehicle. It's based on the old T-egg / Cayenne platform which is among other a lot heavier. I think it's due for replacement this year or next with the new platform.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Damn, congrats! That is an AWESOME discount. They don't budge around here.

What options did you get? And those 21inch rims are awesome. Shame, they're so overpriced.

Unfortunately, it has the base suspension. It has the following options:

Prem Package Plus 10180.00
Classic Silver 790.00
Trailer Hitch 650.00
Porsche Entry and Drive 1090.00
21" Turbo II Wheel 5915.00
Bose Audio Package 2160.00

The car was sitting on the dealer's lot since June 2012 and had approximately 150 miles on it, warranty punched September 2012 and purchased in late November. I was surprised they were discounting it so much.

Originally Posted by vaguy79

Unfortunately, it has the base suspension. It has the following options:

Prem Package Plus 10180.00
Classic Silver 790.00
Trailer Hitch 650.00
Porsche Entry and Drive 1090.00
21" Turbo II Wheel 5915.00
Bose Audio Package 2160.00

The car was sitting on the dealer's lot since June 2012 and had approximately 150 miles on it, warranty punched September 2012 and purchased in late November. I was surprised they were discounting it so much.

Hhehe, I guess a V6 is seen as a democrats car in Texas...
Dowright unamerican commie invention.

Originally Posted by vaguy79

Unfortunately, it has the base suspension. It has the following options:

Prem Package Plus 10180.00
Classic Silver 790.00
Trailer Hitch 650.00
Porsche Entry and Drive 1090.00
21" Turbo II Wheel 5915.00
Bose Audio Package 2160.00

The car was sitting on the dealer's lot since June 2012 and had approximately 150 miles on it, warranty punched September 2012 and purchased in late November. I was surprised they were discounting it so much.

Damn, those are about the same options I was looking at, except in metallic green and I added online services. Prem Package Plus is awesome

If anyone is looking to purchase a cayenne (last generation) turbo s, I just came across one the other day w/ 3k miles for 30XXX off msrp.

Originally Posted by NoI4plz

If anyone is looking to purchase a cayenne (last generation) turbo s, I just came across one the other day w/ 3k miles for 30XXX off msrp.

It should be way more than that. The last gen Turbo S is quite old at this point

Originally Posted by vaguy79

I was recently in the market for a new SUV and it was between the X5 Diesel and Cayenne V6. The incentives for the X5 were tempting but in the end I chose the Cayenne. I agree with other posters that the build quality and materials used in the Cayenne are a step up from the BMW. Additionally, options are ridiculous for the Porsche, in fact mine had about 21k in options including the $5900 21" rims.

The X5d I was looking had a sticker of ~72k and with discounting was about 58k. The Cayenne had a sticker of ~73k and with discounting was 62.5k.

Hi Vaguy:
are you talking about a NEW vehicle? BMW gave you $14000 discount off MSRP??? and Cayenne gave you $10500 off MSRP??? for a NEW suv?

Originally Posted by dawninglawrence

Hi Vaguy:
are you talking about a NEW vehicle? BMW gave you $14000 discount off MSRP??? and Cayenne gave you $10500 off MSRP??? for a NEW suv?

Yes to both. However, the Cayenne had it's warranty punched 2 months sooner prior to my purchase. This seems to be common for Porsche as it allows the dealer to get another allotment. The Cayenne was untitled and for all purposes NEW.

I also qualified for the USAA discount for the BMW.

I can't believe how successful this thread has been. We are holding the record on replies and almost there for number of views for the X5 Forum. Keep it up!

And I can't believe how balanced and respectful this thread is. It discusses the IMO two best luxury SUVs currently in production with as much objectivity that one can ask for. Both vehicles strengths and weaknesses are highlighted by owners of each. Very nice and highly informative. This must be the most objective forum on bimmerfest and as far as I can tell it's free from any raving fanboyism, just a bunch of car lovers that drives BMWs since it's the best car for them and not because it's a BMW and everything else stinks and always will.

Here's a summary from my experience when comparing the X5 to the Cayenne:

Cayenne cons:
- Price, a Pepper with similar power, handling and options will have a much higher msrp and when you add discounts it's close to 50% more pricey.
- Steering weight. While the steering is not numb, wandering and irregular as in for example an rwd F10 it is a bit light. You can't lean on it as you can with for example an X5, E9X or E60.

Cayenne pros:
- A step up in perceived quality and luxury.
- Better reliability and resale value.
- It feels fresher.

I also suspect that the Cayenne is slightly better off road when it gets a bit gnarly.

The diesel Cayenne (same drivetrain as T-egg and Q7) would be better off road, but the gasser Cayenne would be closer to the X5 in that regard, tires of course being the deciding factor here. The "old" Cayenne is a terror off road, right up there with the Jeep and RR -- but who would ever take their pepper off road that way? Way too capable underpinnings for the actual useage -- and that is why they were changed to a lighter (read less capable) system along with saving gas of course.

Jeep GC diesel will be announced on Monday

Originally Posted by solstice

Here's a summary from my experience when comparing the X5 to the Cayenne:

Cayenne cons:
- Price, a Pepper with similar power, handling and options will have a much higher msrp and when you add discounts it's close to 50% more pricey.
- Steering weight. While the steering is not numb, wandering and irregular as in for example an rwd F10 it is a bit light. You can't lean on it as you can with for example an X5, E9X or E60.

The price point is a bit of an exaggeration. Realistically they're closer to 25% more expensive (ie. $75K vs $95K....up here at least).

Steering weight is something that is definitely lighter in the Porsches, but that doesn't mean that it's similar to the F10 or inferior. Better comparison to the light steering dynamic is the Panamera or new 911. Yes, it's lighter but it is so responsive and accurate that it is far superior to the F10 set up.

This is one of the consistent BMW fallacy's. Heavy steering = better steering. It does not. BMW's mistake was lightening the steering in the F10 and not being able to keep it as accurate as the previous generations. Drive a Panamera for comparison. No issue at all with the "light" steering being incredibly precise and accurate for a larger car.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

The price point is a bit of an exaggeration. Realistically they're closer to 25% more expensive (ie. $75K vs $95K....up here at least).

Steering weight is something that is definitely lighter in the Porsches, but that doesn't mean that it's similar to the F10 or inferior. Better comparison to the light steering dynamic is the Panamera or new 911. Yes, it's lighter but it is so responsive and accurate that it is far superior to the F10 set up.

This is one of the consistent BMW fallacy's. Heavy steering = better steering. It does not. BMW's mistake was lightening the steering in the F10 and not being able to keep it as accurate as the previous generations. Drive a Panamera for comparison. No issue at all with the "light" steering being incredibly precise and accurate for a larger car.

If heavier steering is better is partly subjective and partly objective. Personally I prefer it to be heavier where it requires more of a determined effort to change direction and it feels more natural. No power steering is the most natural and I'm old enough to remember it. Objectively a heavier steering has a larger dynamic range and can be made to better communicate grip. Think of the difference between the wheels in the air ( no resistance ) and the wheels standing still on dry Tarmac, the bigger the range in steering resistance the better the steering can be made to communicate grip in between.

The Cayenne's steering is very similar to the Panny which I've driven. They are both very good but the X5s is better IMO. The F10s is sh*t. I really disliked it in mine. Light steering is coming everywhere and in some cars it's good but it doesn't mean everyone prefers it. It might even be faster on a track since it induces less fatigue and can possibly also help with faster reactions. I do realize though that it belongs in the purist section and that it will soon be part of history and in a very limited set of enthusiast vehicles. It's going the way of passive sports suspension and NA performance engines.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Jeep GC diesel will be announced on Monday

Jeep GC has really poor build quality. Of all the car I was browsing on SJ Auto Show, it was the only one where I spot a defect. The plastic cover on the back side of driver seat in the Jeep GC was starting to fall off after less than 10 hours on the show room floor (Thursday was the first day?) I was so hoping that they would have improved their quality. It would have offered similar value proposition as the VW Touareg.

Originally Posted by solstice

If heavier steering is better is partly subjective and partly objective. Personally I prefer it to be heavier where it requires more of a determined effort to change direction and it feels more natural. No power steering is the most natural and I'm old enough to remember it. Objectively a heavier steering has a larger dynamic range and can be made to better communicate grip. Think of the difference between the wheels in the air ( no resistance ) and the wheels standing still on dry Tarmac, the bigger the range in steering resistance the better the steering can be made to communicate grip in between.

The Cayenne's steering is very similar to the Panny which I've driven. They are both very good but the X5s is better IMO. The F10s is sh*t. I really disliked it in mine. Light steering is coming everywhere and in some cars it's good but it doesn't mean everyone prefers it. It might even be faster on a track since it induces less fatigue and can possibly also help with faster reactions. I do realize though that it belongs in the purist section and that it will soon be part of history and in a very limited set of enthusiast vehicles. It's going the way of passive sports suspension and NA performance engines.

I agree with your statement. I firmly believe a properly weighted steering wheel is very important to feedback what is happening on the wheel. I still remember I sense something was wrong with tires when the steering wheel felt a little slippery. If you are always light on steering wheel, it would be hard to detect a delta in change of force. So I agree that heavier steering is better if it is not artificially harden.

Passive sport suspension is easy to get it back. BMW just add a small control unit to the damper to make it active. Replace that with a without electrical connection, you will get that back! I saw the picture of it in X3 forum. I am sure eventually there will be an after market for those that doesn't like active ones.

NA engine? If you look at the way people promote diesel on this thread, you would think gasoline engine is going into extinction in the US.

Henry, who knows what the "visitors" did to that Jeep before you got to it. Amazing how lookie lous who are allowed inside the vehicles can screw things up. I would not condem the whole line because of one seat back problem. That said, the Jeep is first of all a mass market machine. I would expect some "differences" if only for the price point -- which I believe will come out under the T-egg! We will see how the new one shakes out. As an aside and unrelated -- I once attended an open house at an Army Base where the kids were given free rein to climb into and over an older M-48 "Patton" tank -- the Sgt in charge complained that they "broke his tank" and now he had to fix it before it could go back on display!

Originally Posted by henrycyao

Jeep GC has really poor build quality. Of all the car I was browsing on SJ Auto Show, it was the only one where I spot a defect. The plastic cover on the back side of driver seat in the Jeep GC was starting to fall off after less than 10 hours on the show room floor (Thursday was the first day?) I was so hoping that they would have improved their quality. It would have offered similar value proposition as the VW Touareg.

Yeah, it's not very good. Consumer Reports and JDPower rank all the chrysler brands right at the bottom

Originally Posted by henrycyao

I agree with your statement. I firmly believe a properly weighted steering wheel is very important to feedback what is happening on the wheel. I still remember I sense something was wrong with tires when the steering wheel felt a little slippery. If you are always light on steering wheel, it would be hard to detect a delta in change of force. So I agree that heavier steering is better if it is not artificially harden.

Clearly you have not driven a Porsche. Their steering is noticeably lighter than BMW's but is far more accurate and perceptive than BMW's.

Pretty sure there's nothing wrong with perceiving anything in the Cayenne, 911, Panamera, etc. with the lighter steering.

Originally Posted by henrycyao

I agree with your statement. I firmly believe a properly weighted steering wheel is very important to feedback what is happening on the wheel. I still remember I sense something was wrong with tires when the steering wheel felt a little slippery. If you are always light on steering wheel, it would be hard to detect a delta in change of force. So I agree that heavier steering is better if it is not artificially harden.

Passive sport suspension is easy to get it back. BMW just add a small control unit to the damper to make it active. Replace that with a without electrical connection, you will get that back! I saw the picture of it in X3 forum. I am sure eventually there will be an after market for those that doesn't like active ones.

NA engine? If you look at the way people promote diesel on this thread, you would think gasoline engine is going into extinction in the US.

The porsche, is light but doesnt really equate to say an overboosted Toyota steering, nor a Lexus GX dull feeling. Its weird, but really well engineered steering feel. It gives you a feeling of control and road feedback, but without the heft in say any EXX (w.o active steering).

that being said, the heft in a BMW isnt bad. For instance it really pays dividends during long, long road trips on the highway. the heft really controls the sudden minute steering angle changes that are typical of other brands.

rank wise, in the handling department:

1) Porsche
2) BMW

The Cayenne has extraordinary precision steering. It feels like you can thread it through a needle's eye at pretty much any speed and it's very, very relaxing to drive. That said it does not communicate grip level as well as my M3 ( or an X5 ) I drive them back to back almost daily. It's pure physics and henrycao is right, when the steering is light all the time your'e left with a tighter range to fit variations. And yes, the Porsche steering is not numb, it's communicative in an almost weird way taken it's lightness but they still can't overcome the laws of nature.

Originally Posted by solstice

The Cayenne has extraordinary precision steering. It feels like you can thread it through a needle's eye at pretty much any speed and it's very, very relaxing to drive. That said it does not communicate grip level as well as my M3 ( or an X5 ) I drive them back to back almost daily. It's pure physics and henrycao is right, when the steering is light all the time your'e left with a tighter range to fit variations. And yes, the Porsche steering is not numb, it's communicative in an almost weird way taken it's lightness but they still can't overcome the laws of nature.

Yeah...you're right...BMW's heavy steering is the way it should be and the true performance marques have it all go wrong.

You may prefer BMW's heavier steering but it does not in any objective way make it better.

I'm sure Ferrari is working on a way to make their steering heavier so it can be as good as BMW's.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Yeah...you're right...BMW's heavy steering is the way it should be and the true performance marques have it all go wrong.

You may prefer BMW's heavier steering but it does not in any objective way make it better.

I'm sure Ferrari is working on a way to make their steering heavier so it can be as good as BMW's.

But of course
Seriously, what is done is not always obvious. Sacrificies are made all the time. Throttle response and linearity is being traded for more hp, TQ and fuel efficiency. A 911 GT2 is faster than a GT3 but is it better? In day to day driving grip level is very important but Ferrari and Porsche etc. are willing to trade some of it for other traits that can make it faster around a track etc. You got a point though there are many aspects and which to select is down to preferences and maybe I put higher value on grip communication than for example yourself. It's all good but I still stand by my original assessment that the Cayenne's steering is not as nicely weighted as the X5's. In the end it's just something you should pay attention to when comparing the two since it is very different. To me it's a con to you it's a pro but it was my assessment. On a whole I whole heartily recommend it. It's an awesome truck. I bought one.

Steering weight, steering feel, and steering accuracy are all mutually exclusive. That said, I really like BMW's heavy steering on the X5, but many of my peers feel it is too heavy.

I like the new Jeep Grand Cherokee. Keep in mind that it is a close cousin to the new Mercedes-Benz ML-Class... they share quite a few components (making the Jeep a much better SUV).

Another thing to note is that the Jeep's upcoming 3.0-liter turbodiesel is not the same unit found under the hood of the Mercedes... it is borrowed from Fiat!

The Jeep's new engine sounds pretty good on paper: "...the main event here is a comprehensively updated powertrain menu, including the aforementioned alt-fuel option, a 3.0-liter EcoDiesel V6 that Chrysler expects will deliver 240 horsepower and 420 pound-feet of torque. Owners can expect 21 miles per gallon in the city and 30 on the highway, and the model features a 7,400-pound tow rating to go with its leg-crossing cruising range of up to 730 miles on a single tank."

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/14/2...ensive-update/

- Mike