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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:59 PM
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bodonx bodonx is offline
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Bmw sell out

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...tAutoShow.aspx


180HP 320i in the States? WTH? Accord and Camry are faster than that.
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  #2  
Old 01-14-2013, 01:35 PM
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Keyser Soze Keyser Soze is offline
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Why not? The thing will probably get 40MPG and if you are just putzing around a large city you are only going 20 feet at a time so who cares if it can't rip your face off accelerating onto some suburban highway?
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2011 E90 335 Sport (Jet Black, Performance Edition) *new commuter/flogmobile, whoa what is this NAV thing?*
2002 E46 330i Sport (Jet Black, 5-speed MT, H&R/Koni Sports, Meyle HD Control Arms, Powerflex FCAB's, Hotchkis sways...and more)*sold*
..lots of former cars

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  #3  
Old 01-14-2013, 01:41 PM
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The mpg is not better than 328i.

This is the spec:


2.0liter TwinPower Turbo 4-cylinder
Twin-scroll turbocharger (cylinder 1, 4 and 2, 3 share a scroll each)
180HP at 5.000 rpm
200 lb-ft of torque from 1,250 rpm - 4,500 rpm
Both 8-speed automatic and 6-speed manual available for the 320i (8-speed auto only for 320i xDrive)
0-60mph in 7.1 seconds (320i)
Top speed: 130mph (electronically limited)
50/50 weight distribution
Preliminary MPG rating:
320i 6-speed manual: 22/34
320i 8-speed auto: 23/33
320i xDrive 8-speed auto: 22/33
17-inch wheels standard
Sport package available including 18-inch wheels with summer tires and increased top speed limiter, sport seats, M Sport suspension, M steering wheel and anthracite headliner.
M Sport package not available
Price:
320i $33,445
320i xDrive: $35,445
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  #4  
Old 01-14-2013, 02:55 PM
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chuck92116 chuck92116 is offline
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Originally Posted by bodonx View Post
http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...tAutoShow.aspx


180HP 320i in the States? WTH? Accord and Camry are faster than that.
Not for long.

All car makes will produce smaller engines with less horsepower to meet fuel standards.

Also, be sure to compare torque with horsepower.
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  #5  
Old 01-14-2013, 03:39 PM
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TGray5 TGray5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodonx View Post
The mpg is not better than 328i.

This is the spec:


2.0liter TwinPower Turbo 4-cylinder
Twin-scroll turbocharger (cylinder 1, 4 and 2, 3 share a scroll each)
180HP at 5.000 rpm
200 lb-ft of torque from 1,250 rpm - 4,500 rpm
Both 8-speed automatic and 6-speed manual available for the 320i (8-speed auto only for 320i xDrive)
0-60mph in 7.1 seconds (320i)
Top speed: 130mph (electronically limited)
50/50 weight distribution
Preliminary MPG rating:
320i 6-speed manual: 22/34
320i 8-speed auto: 23/33
320i xDrive 8-speed auto: 22/33
17-inch wheels standard
Sport package available including 18-inch wheels with summer tires and increased top speed limiter, sport seats, M Sport suspension, M steering wheel and anthracite headliner.
M Sport package not available
Price:
320i $33,445
320i xDrive: $35,445
Hmm, I guess it's a 328 with less boost?
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  #6  
Old 01-14-2013, 04:05 PM
solstice solstice is online now
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Originally Posted by TGray5 View Post
Hmm, I guess it's a 328 with less boost?
I kind of agree that one 2 liter I4 turbo is enough. And that 180hp for this engine is not really cool and BMWesque today. My 2 liter 1988 SAAB 9000 Turbo had 175hp. That's over 20 years ago...
So nothing wrong with a turbo 4-banger but a nutured one with 20 year old performance numbers is not so cool. I'd rather seen a 1.5 liter high-tech, cool fuel sipping 3-cylinder with that hp.

Last edited by solstice; 01-14-2013 at 04:07 PM.
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  #7  
Old 01-14-2013, 04:22 PM
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TGray5 TGray5 is offline
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Originally Posted by bodonx View Post
The mpg is not better than 328i.
That's because of the way the US tests are done...in reality it will get better mileage because your hp and Torque is limited.
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  #8  
Old 01-14-2013, 04:24 PM
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1985mb 1985mb is offline
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Originally Posted by bodonx View Post
http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...tAutoShow.aspx


180HP 320i in the States? WTH? Accord and Camry are faster than that.
Why is this shocking or a "sell out"? Non-M BMWs were typically never the quickest (0-60, 1/4 mile) cars in their class, until the N54 came along and the turbo-charged engines that followed.

Look up E36, E46, E60, etc. straight line stats for the entry-level I4 and I6 models.

It was always about handling, steering, balance, and the overall (driving) dynamics.
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  #9  
Old 01-14-2013, 04:32 PM
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TGray5 TGray5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1985mb View Post
Why is this shocking or a "sell out"? Non-M BMWs were typically never the quickest (0-60, 1/4 mile) cars in their class, until the N54 came along and the turbo-charged engines that followed.

Look up E36, E46, E60, etc. straight line stats for the entry-level I4 and I6 models.

It was always about handling, steering, balance, and the overall (driving) dynamics.
^^^^This. And BMW makes 118i and 318i and all kinds of smaller engined cars for sale in most other countries than the U.S. So nothing new, except that they may be bringing one of them to the U.S....big deal.
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  #10  
Old 01-14-2013, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 1985mb View Post
Why is this shocking or a "sell out"? Non-M BMWs were typically never the quickest (0-60, 1/4 mile) cars in their class, until the N54 came along and the turbo-charged engines that followed.

Look up E36, E46, E60, etc. straight line stats for the entry-level I4 and I6 models.

It was always about handling, steering, balance, and the overall (driving) dynamics.
I agree with that. I loved E46, E36 models.

However, this time around, BMW is not a leader in driving dynamics either with soulless steering, so-so braking & grips due to RFT, overweight (on models above 3-series), throttle response delay on some models, etc.
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  #11  
Old 01-14-2013, 05:10 PM
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1985mb 1985mb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodonx View Post
I agree with that. I loved E46, E36 models.

However, this time around, BMW is not a leader in driving dynamics either with soulless steering, so-so braking & grips due to RFT, overweight (on models above 3-series), throttle response delay on some models, etc.
Don't knock it til you've driven it. Seems like the F30 will remain one of the best drivers in its class.
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  #12  
Old 01-14-2013, 07:58 PM
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Don't knock it til you've driven it. Seems like the F30 will remain one of the best drivers in its class.
Please note my comment above are for new BMW F-series in general.

I have driven F30 at BMW event. Although F30 335i sport line is sportier than F10 535i and non-sport line F30s, it's still not as engaging to drive as older E46/E36 anymore.
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  #13  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bodonx View Post
Please note my comment above are for new BMW F-series in general.

I have driven F30 at BMW event. Although F30 335i sport line is sportier than F10 535i and non-sport line F30s, it's still not as engaging to drive as older E46/E36 anymore.
And that will never be the case. There has rarely been a BMW that has been more "connected" or as "engaging" as its predecessors.

There is literally no way BMW could ever build and successfully sell an e36/46* in 2013 and beyond. The world has simply changed too much. The regulatory/safety/emissions/mpg requirements the new cars have to comply with and the tech expected in the marketplace make it impossible.

Lets be realistic about what can be built and sold in sufficient numbers today before this turns into a nostalgia/pedestal-placement exercise like Lincoln guys bemoaning the demise of their full-size Continentals with equally full chrome treatments

PS: why stop there? Why not compare an f30 to an even more impossible standard such as the light weight and engaging driving dynamics of an e30?
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  #14  
Old 01-15-2013, 05:10 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1985mb View Post
And that will never be the case. There has rarely been a BMW that has been more "connected" or as "engaging" as its predecessors.

There is literally no way BMW could ever build and successfully sell an e36/46* in 2013 and beyond. The world has simply changed too much. The regulatory/safety/emissions/mpg requirements the new cars have to comply with and the tech expected in the marketplace make it impossible.

Lets be realistic about what can be built and sold in sufficient numbers today before this turns into a nostalgia/pedestal-placement exercise like Lincoln guys bemoaning the demise of their full-size Continentals with equally full chrome treatments

PS: why stop there? Why not compare an f30 to an even more impossible standard such as the light weight and engaging driving dynamics of an e30?
I don't agree with you, nor do the magazines who have been beating up the current 3 series. It seems that even Cadillac is building a car that beats the 3 series in driving dynamics. BMW has elected to build "kinder, gentler" cars that are less engaging from a enthusiast driving perspective. That is BMW's new marketing direction. I'm not saying its bad btw. But it was BMW's decision, not a changed world.
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  #15  
Old 01-15-2013, 05:41 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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I'm driving a 328 loaner. I rather like it, although the seats totally suck. It feels alive and lithe, and this is a "no line" bare bones stripper.

Not sure I like this move. This is cheap and easy way out....essentially software change on the engine, hard to see how you could de-content any more from base model 328 unless you started offering manual windows and seats..... Would like to have seen little petrol engine (1.5L or smaller) but that's a pipe dream.

In any event, I don't view this as a sellout at all.

I also note that the F10 drives like my dad's old 7 series, while this F30 drives like my old E39 5 series.
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  #16  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:40 AM
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Daedalus34r Daedalus34r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodonx View Post
it's still not as engaging to drive as older E46/E36 anymore.
this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1985mb View Post
There is literally no way BMW could ever build and successfully sell an e36/46* in 2013 and beyond.
not true imo. BMW has simply gone soft and is going where the money is. For every enthusiast driver, there are 50 more who just want a badge and a smooth riding car. They don't care about lateral g's or 0-60 times, only status and prestige.

It's a mean thing to say but just look at the current complaints for the 5 and 3, it's noticeably bigger than the predecessor and has lost its edge. This is a sad trend that will continue, I want to give bmw money to replace my 8.5 yr old e46, but they have nothing in their wares that compares to it.
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  #17  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
I don't agree with you, nor do the magazines who have been beating up the current 3 series. It seems that even Cadillac is building a car that beats the 3 series in driving dynamics. BMW has elected to build "kinder, gentler" cars that are less engaging from a enthusiast driving perspective. That is BMW's new marketing direction. I'm not saying its bad btw. But it was BMW's decision, not a changed world.
If you think any manufacturer is going to build an e30/36/46 type sport sedan in today's world, lets just say you'll be waiting a long time.

If you don't think the reg/Safety/emissions/mpg context of the automotive world has changed since those cars were designed, there's probably nothing I can say that will change your mind

While the press calling pretty much every new BMW less engaging and driver-oriented than its predecessor is nothing new, the f10 got it a lot harder than the f30 from what I read. Yet most people on this forum are driving one. If an impartial observer wanted to determine at which point in the 21st century BMW changed and "sold out" they would probably pinpoint the design of the f10 as a much more luxury-oriented car appealing to a larger audience and the election to move away from an e60 type driver experience.

PS every generation of 3 series going back to e90/46/36 has lost a magazine comparison at some point. Those were generally exceptions to the rule but happened nonetheless. If everyone chose cars by magazine results, certainly no one here would drive an f10.
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  #18  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:17 AM
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 1985mb View Post
If you think any manufacturer is going to build an e30/36/46 type sport sedan in today's world, lets just say you'll be waiting a long time.

If you don't think the reg/Safety/emissions/mpg context of the automotive world has changed since those cars were designed, there's probably nothing I can say that will change your mind

While the press calling pretty much every new BMW less engaging and driver-oriented than its predecessor is nothing new, the f10 got it a lot harder than the f30 from what I read. Yet most people on this forum are driving one. If an impartial observer wanted to determine at which point in the 21st century BMW changed and "sold out" they would probably pinpoint the design of the f10 as a much more luxury-oriented car appealing to a larger audience and the election to move away from an e60 type driver experience.

PS every generation of 3 series going back to e90/46/36 has lost a magazine comparison at some point. Those were generally exceptions to the rule but happened nonetheless. If everyone chose cars by magazine results, certainly no one here would drive an f10.
You don't have to convince me that government regs have changed - I know an enormous amount about cars and the regulations they are facing. But that is NOT what is causing BMW to change the dynamics of their cars. First of all, every manufacturer is faced with the same challenges. But horsepower and fuel economy are both getting better - not worse. I get that manufacturers are going to more fuel efficient engines - but performance across the board is getting better, not worse. Hell, cars are not even getting heavier because manufacturers are using more light weight materials and better structural engineering.

Honestly I'm not even sure what your point is. BMW is clearly going a different direction with their cars (at least leaning a little further to the right). Read the comparison tests between the 2013 Lexus GS350 and the BMW 535. Lexus is up against the same government regulations, but that car is now the benchmark for handling and overall driving dynamics in it's class.

BTW, I'll repeat that I'm not knocking BMW. I traded a 2010 Lexus for my 550 and have no regrets. I just don't think you can make a case that government regulations are the issue beyond the fact that they are now offering a smaller, more fuel efficient engine. But that has not been your point all along as best as I can tell.
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  #20  
Old 01-15-2013, 09:16 AM
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I have driven F30 at BMW event. Although F30 335i sport line is sportier than F10 535i and non-sport line F30s, it's still not as engaging to drive as older E46/E36 anymore.
Or an E90.

I test drove an F30 before ordering my F10 and I thought the E90 was a better car than the F30. Car and Driver agreed in their review (mentioned by jjsC6).
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  #21  
Old 01-15-2013, 11:41 AM
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http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...tAutoShow.aspx


180HP 320i in the States? WTH? Accord and Camry are faster than that.
4 cylinder Camry 0-60 is just under 8 seconds so I guess not.
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  #22  
Old 01-15-2013, 01:35 PM
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4 cylinder Camry 0-60 is just under 8 seconds so I guess not.
Even 4-cylinder accord has more horsepower than 320i

http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specifications.aspx
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:39 PM
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To be honest, I am not too worried about the 180 hp. What I am worried is where BMW is heading. Softer car, no lightweight technology, worse handling, no soul.

Remember E90 320si. That is one exciting car even with 173 hp.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:53 PM
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http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...tAutoShow.aspx


180HP 320i in the States? WTH? Accord and Camry are faster than that.
Quote:
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To be honest, I am nor too worried about the 180 hp.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:41 PM
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http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...tAutoShow.aspx


180HP 320i in the States? WTH? Accord and Camry are faster than that.
What's wrong with that? They used to sell up to like 316 for ages in Europe (where gas was around $1 per liter there - e.g. around $3.80 per gallon - does it remind you something?)

FYI: 316i has (obviously) 1.6L producing 136hp and ~40mpg (US)
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