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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #201  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
For Honda and Toyota those were steps up. I think people are freaking out because they feel that the mere existence of the 320 makes their status penis shrink. Its understandable. On the outside most people won't know the difference. Especially when people debadge their cars. Now their 320 looks like a 335 sans the dual exhaust......plus everything else that makes the 335 a better car. Joe Blow on the street won't know though. He'll just wonder how that twenty-something can afford that "luxury car".

I think it's a smart move for BMW though. Why not get customers in at a lower price point now and then welcome them with open arms when they earn more money and inevitably spend more on their next BMW.
There's no question that BMW is selling-out a bit of status for a money-grab. Those of us in the know will realize who spent a lot of coin and who didn't, but that really doesn't matter. The important thing is that BMW stays successful and brings in a lot of revenue so they can continue to hire the best designers and engineers and create the best products possible.

The 3 Series has always been two-cars-in-one. Now it's three:

A $50,000 German luxury car.

A $37,000 Entry-level luxury car.

A $30,000 top-of-the line non-luxury car.

To us, we can keep track of it all. It's easy to see the differences between a Line and a no-Line car. The badge on the trunk tells the rest of the story. To Mr. & Mrs. Camry, they just see more BMW's on the road, makes them think there are more people than ever living the dream. Nothing wrong with that.

BJ
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  #202  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by krash View Post
Back in the day, a 180hp 3 would be a dream come true. I don't even think the M variants hit 200hp.

But BJ's point about handling is fair.

Flashback to the 80s and people were buying 160hp 325s. Great handling; stripped down, not a lot of gadgets, and they were loved by enthusiasts.

They also became a status symbol in the 80s, because they were really out-of-reach for most people back then. Base price was low $30s back then, and you got a lot less for your money than you do now.

EDIT: Sort of interesting that the 320i is coming in with the same base price that the 1988 325 had.
caveat - I'm behind on this thread so all of what I'm about to post may have already been cussed and discussed.


The E46 325 had 184 hp at 6,000 rpms and only 175 lb-ft of torque, not until 3,500 rpms.

The E46 325 sold like hotcakes. As is always true with the "lesser" 3er approximately 75% of E46 3ers sold were 325s. They certainly were not eschewed. In 2001 Car & Driver reported 0 - 60 mph in 7.0 seconds with the manual.

So, now the 320i - 180 hp at 5,000 rpms and 200 lb-ft of torque from 1,250 - 4,500 rpms. BMW reports 0 - 60 mph in 7.1 seconds with either the manual or the automatic.
(edit - on BMWUSA they are reporting 181 hp, and 184 lb-ft tq for the manual and 250 lb-ft tq for the automatic.)


The fact that BMWNA is putting the M Sport steering wheel in the Sport package model indicates to me they will probably do the same thing with 328 and 335 Sport line models at some point in the very near future.


I just priced a 320i sport package model and an equivalently equipped 328i Sport line. The 320i was $3,675 less at $44,270 v $47,945. I included the premium pkg, cold weather pkg, lighting pkg, alarm, BMW Assist/enhanced Bluetooth, PDC, rear view camera, and leather as a stand alone option on the 320i.

For value shoppers one benefit the 320i has is that the premium package does not include leather on the 320i, so they can still get all the goodies in the premium package and save an additional $1,450 if they would prefer to stick with leatherette. I'm sure there will be some Bimmerfesters who will be envious of this.


I predict BMW dealers are going to order the 320i in droves....and then sell them in droves.


Hopefully BMWNA will make the HK option available on the 320i.

I like the sport package on the 320i - $1,300 rather than the $2,500 for the Sport line. All the sport package features without the extra money for the Sport line trim items on the 328 and 335.
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Last edited by tturedraider; 01-15-2013 at 07:39 PM.
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  #203  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:35 PM
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I predict BMW dealers are going to order the 320i in droves....and then sell them in droves.
No question, this should be the best-selling BMW in America.

And while we debate engines, the reality is that most car buyers just want a new car and they want it off the lot. I can't tell you how many 535i M-Sport and 335i M-Sport cars I see on the road every day driven by 55 year old moms. They're not enthusiasts, just impatient buyers.

The 320i does three things from a business standpoint. First, clearly, is it sets a new pricepoint to get more customers into the showrooms. Second, it allows people to trade up to a 328i for some of the goodies you can't get on the 320i, will sell more of those too. Thirdly, for those that come in for the $299 lease special who don't want to wait three months for delivery, they can be coaxed into $349 a month for the 328i sitting on the lot and ready to drive away today.

It's as much a marketing ploy to drive traffic to dealerships at competitors expense as it is a way to sell cheap BMW's.

BJ
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  #204  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
The ATS is barely under radar.
Caddy has been taunting the BMW 3 series with the ATS for almost two years, in part because of the value proposition of the ATS 2.5L. Don't for a minute believe BMW is not paying attention.

Last year, one day after GM published its ATS specs, BMW modified its F30's specs on its website, in particular the 0-60 times were much faster than the day before. You think it was a fluke?

Now the F30 has a base model that undercuts the price of the ATS 2.5L by $545, one day after ATS gets the Car of the Year thing. Maybe it is another coincidence you say, but are you a betting person?

Watch GM doing their part to play this game. It used to be they had the ATS 2.5L for $299/mo. in the commercials, now they have the ATS 2.0T for $299/mo.

Last edited by dtc100; 01-15-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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  #205  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Caddy has been taunting the BMW 3 series with the ATS for almost two years, in part because of the value proposition of the ATS 2.5L. Don't for a minute believe BMW is not paying attention.

Last year, one day after GM published its ATS specs, BMW modified its F30's specs on its website, in particular the 0-60 times were much faster than the day before. You think it was a fluke?

Now the F30 has a base model that undercuts the price of the ATS 2.5L by $545, one day after ATS gets the Car of the Year thing. Maybe it is another coincidence you say, but are you a betting person?
Nope. It's the opposite.

BMW has the 320i already in production, not like this is some new car. They see that Cadillac is advertising a cheap RWD car to the masses and attempting to create a new market. So they drop their existing 320i in there for a year, toe in the water, see how it goes, and kill two birds with one stone: a) capitalize on GM's advertising awareness and b) torpedo Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus. Good time to do it too- BMW just had the best year ever, lots of numbers to anniversary, might as well stack the deck with a sure-thing.

BJ
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Last edited by boltjaM3s; 01-15-2013 at 07:42 PM.
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  #206  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Nope. It's the opposite.

BMW has the 320i already in production, not like this is some new car. They see that Cadillac is advertising a cheap RWD car to the masses and attempting to create a new market. So they drop their existing 320i in there for a year, toe in the water, see how it goes, and kill two birds with one stone: a) capitalize on GM's advertising awareness and b) torpedo Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus.

BJ
That is not "opposite," you are not disagreeing with me, just triying to put it in another angle. The timing aligned with each move Caddy has made with the ATS, that is very telling. They could have brought the 320i here long ago, why now, on this very day? BTW, did you see the last comment I added? Caddy is now doing $299 special on the 2.0T, not 2.5L anymore.

Don't steal my logic then pretend it is your own and different from mine If you like to disagree, then say something different, of your own.

For anyone who is not clear already, I am speculating, I am not saying I know it. We are all in some way speculating, just some have basis, others are pure speculations.

Last edited by dtc100; 01-15-2013 at 07:52 PM.
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  #207  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
That is not "opposite," you are not disagreeing with me, just triying to put it in another angle. The timing aligned with each move Caddy has made with the ATS, that is very telling. BTW, did you see the last comment I added? Caddy is now doing $299 special on the 2.0T, not 2.5L anymore.

Don't steal my logic then pretend it is your own and different from mine
Whatever. But you don't honestly think BMW made the decision on the announcement of the 320i in response to the ATS NA Car of the Year announcement do you? Both announcements coincided with the press opening of the the NAIAS, pure and simple.
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  #208  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:54 PM
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Very interesting thread. I think this might be the only country where consumers complain about having more choices (see some posts above).

By the way, there will be minimum 4 engine choices when new diesel specs are made public. Great time to be shopping for a new BMW 3 series.

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I don't expect it to be a great time selling them. It's bad enough now trying to configure/order cars for stock with all of the lines and packages. The combinations number in the thousands. And now, were going to add a whole 'nother car to the mix? Just imagine trying to sell from stock...

It used to be so much easier. It is brutal nowadays. And with the current glut of inventory, and all of these offerings, combined with buyers who are unwilling to wait 60-90 days for a custom order, and selling for invoice or less. The caliber of qualified CA's is sure to continue to drop.
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  #209  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:56 PM
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Whatever. But you don't honestly think BMW made the decision on the announcement of the 320i in response to the ATS NA Car of the Year announcement do you? Both announcements coincided with the press opening of the the NAIAS, pure and simple.
One incidence doesn't lead to a good speculation, but a patent of events can.
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  #210  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
That is not "opposite," you are not disagreeing with me, just triying to put it in another angle. The timing aligned with each move Caddy has made with the ATS, that is very telling. They could have brought the 320i here long ago, why now, on this very day? BTW, did you see the last comment I added? Caddy is now doing $299 special on the 2.0T, not 2.5L anymore.

Don't steal my logic then pretend it is your own and different from mine If you like to disagree, then say something different, of your own.
I don't follow the comings and goings of cars I will never buy, so no, I don't know what cat and mouse game you're dreaming BMW was playing with a company that makes a car that doesn't sell. I don't know what a 2.0T or a 2.5L is either; please don't tell me, it doesn't matter.

There is no way that BMW would view the Cadillac as a legitimate threat. Current sales bear that out in spades. You think BMW is secretly trying to undermine Cadillac. I think BMW is simply being opportunistic. That's the "opposite" I refer to.

BMW just had the biggest year in their history. They have a cheap 3 Series that sells everywhere else on Earth except the United States. Mercedes Benz just announced a low-end C Class called the CLA that starts at....you guessed it....$30,000.

Hmm. I don't know, maybe, just maybe, that's the car they're taking action against. Ya think?

BJ
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  #211  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:01 PM
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I predict BMW dealers are going to order the 320i in droves....and then sell them in droves..
Contrary to popular belief, dealers don't get to pick which models they want to order, and how many. BMWNA controls everything. We never seem to get enough of what is selling hot until they cool off, for example F30 335. For the first 12 months post launch, months could go by without a single allocation at smaller dealers. Now we are getting a few, the bulk being SA. As a dealer I am not excited about the launch of a strippy F30. To me this makes no sense at all other than oversaturating an already heavy supply of product. Gross profit averages for dealers will continue to plummet. That's ok, because every deal is a "mini" already (minimum commission).
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  #212  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:02 PM
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I don't expect it to be a great time selling them. It's bad enough now trying to configure/order cars for stock with all of the lines and packages. The combinations number in the thousands. And now, were going to add a whole 'nother car to the mix? Just imagine trying to sell from stock...

It used to be so much easier. It is brutal nowadays. And with the current glut of inventory, and all of these offerings, combined with buyers who are unwilling to wait 60-90 days for a custom order, and selling for invoice or less. The caliber of qualified CA's is sure to continue to drop.
Just like Caddy using the 2.5L as a talking point, but mainly to sell the 2.0T, BMW is no different. The 320i is not any cheaper to manufacture than the base 328i, why give up $4k profit when you are selling the F30 by $10k a month?

For one, get the young buyers in the family, who otherwise will not even consider walking in the BMW showroom, for another, get people in the door with the $30k price, and sell them 328i or 335i.
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  #213  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BMW just had the biggest year in their history. They have a cheap 3 Series that sells everywhere else on Earth except the United States. Mercedes Benz just announced a low-end C Class called the CLA that starts at....you guessed it....$30,000.

Hmm. I don't know, maybe, just maybe, that's the car they're taking action against. Ya think?

BJ
Or it could be:

C250 vs. 320i
C300 vs. 328i
C350 vs. 335i
C63 vs. M3/4

CLA may be up against the 1-/2-series.

Last edited by 408Racer; 01-15-2013 at 08:04 PM.
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  #214  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:03 PM
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Whatever. But you don't honestly think BMW made the decision on the announcement of the 320i in response to the ATS NA Car of the Year announcement do you? Both announcements coincided with the press opening of the the NAIAS, pure and simple.


Meet the Mercedes Benz CLA Class. A $30,000 4-door entry level German luxury sedan. The existing C Class starts at $36,000.

I don't know, might be that the Germans are going after each other, not really caring at all about the failing sad American wannabe.

BJ
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  #215  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:05 PM
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caveat - I'm behind on this thread so all of what I'm about to post may have already been cussed and discussed.


The E46 325 had 184 hp at 6,000 rpms and only 175 lb-ft of torque, not until 3,500 rpms.

The E46 325 sold like hotcakes. As is always true with the "lesser" 3er approximately 75% of E46 3ers sold were 325s. They certainly were not eschewed. In 2001 Car & Driver reported 0 - 60 mph in 7.0 seconds with the manual.
Yes, and I was going back even further than that. I was going back to the early to mid 80s. Back in the E30 days. I just graduated from college, and I really wanted a BMW. I just got my career started. I was a computer programmer (fortran, LOL!). I vividly remember taking them for test drives, and reading about them in Road and Track.

I also remember not being able to afford one. At $30k plus, they simply were out of my price range. Anyway, back then, they didn't even have close to 180hp. I recall them being around 160HP or less.
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  #216  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
Or it could be:

C250 vs. 320i
C300 vs. 328i
C350 vs. 335i
C63 vs. M3/4

CLA may be up against the 1-/2-series.
Sure, that works too.

Or, could be, Mercedes Benz broke the $30,000 4-door barrier; BMW is just competing with it.

I don't think there will be a 1 Series Sedan. Doubt highly that BMW wants a competing $30,000 Sedan to the 320i or to create a trashy $25,000 pricepoint. Methinks the dream of a 1 Series Sedan with E46 dimensions isn't happening. I think the 320i is it.

BJ
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  #217  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

Meet the Mercedes Benz CLA Class. A $30,000 4-door entry level German luxury sedan. The existing C Class starts at $36,000.

I don't know, might be that the Germans are going after each other, not really caring at all about the failing sad American wannabe.

BJ
And BMW has always been less expensive than MB, model-for-model.

The failing wannabe might stand a better chance with a V model for people who like cars that look like cartoons.
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  #218  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:10 PM
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Pricing has gotten Ridiculous ..
My E46 29.5k
E90 33k OTD .
I almost sheet to see a 328i 4 cyl for 37K Before options ?
Imo
328 34 k
320 27k
Meanwhile you can get a turbo regal / verano for 10k less and smoke these cars .
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:11 PM
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How so?

The car already sold for over a year in other parts of the country. Mechanically this car is 99.8% identical to it's US 328 counter, so almost nothing to train it's techs on.

Whole new platforms take several years. Something like this, where the ATS specs were everywhere 8 months ago, yeah-that's enough time.

Did you not see how Honda got skewered by the mags with the '12 Civic and had NEW tooling done with bumpers, lights, interior etc all for the '13 model year. You think BMW can't take an existing car and get EPA and the like done(for all you know EPA numbers being identical to the 328 might mean a half assed speed through) in under a year?
When did BMW last have 3 models of the 3 series sedan in the US? I think it's a pure Cadillac fanboy fantasy to think BMW would make that kind of major policy change just in reaction to some POS 2.5L ATS.

This is just part of BMW's plan to greatly expand volume, it's not a reaction to the #9 player in the luxury sedan business.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:12 PM
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I don't think there will be a 1 Series Sedan. Doubt highly that BMW wants a competing $30,000 Sedan to the 320i or to create a trashy $25,000 pricepoint. Methinks the dream of a 1 Series Sedan with E46 dimensions isn't happening. I think the 320i is it.

BJ
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:14 PM
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I don't follow the comings and goings of cars I will never buy, so no, I don't know what cat and mouse game you're dreaming BMW was playing with a company that makes a car that doesn't sell. I don't know what a 2.0T or a 2.5L is either; please don't tell me, it doesn't matter.
If you don't even know the facts, then how can you form any opinion? Oh wait, you had make your own facts I still remember the 98% fact.

Quote:
There is no way that BMW would view the Cadillac as a legitimate threat. Current sales bear that out in spades. You think BMW is secretly trying to undermine Cadillac. I think BMW is simply being opportunistic. That's the "opposite" I refer to.
This is exactly why BMW is at the top, they don't ignore any potential threat. Caddy has been the loudest taunting BMW in the past year or two, they need to shut them up, while at the same time convince people like you they could care less about the ATS. Not a difficult thing to do with fanboys, but BMW knows they need to sell non-fanboys.

Quote:
BMW just had the biggest year in their history. They have a cheap 3 Series that sells everywhere else on Earth except the United States. Mercedes Benz just announced a low-end C Class called the CLA that starts at....you guessed it....$30,000.

Hmm. I don't know, maybe, just maybe, that's the car they're taking action against. Ya think?

BJ
Of course there are other things to consider. But the CLA is not necessarily targeting the exact same market. Yes there will be cross shoppers between F30 and CLA, but if BMW is really serious about the CLA, they would have worked on a new 4-door 1 series model, but FWD. I think they will though. From the intial impression, the CLA could grab a lot of drivers moving up from Camry, Accord, Altima, Civic, Corolla and VWs...who don't know what is the point of an RWD.

Last edited by dtc100; 01-15-2013 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:14 PM
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Meanwhile you can get a turbo regal / verano for 10k less and smoke these cars .
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Go ahead and smoke me in those cars as you drive alone and I have a fine foxy blonde riding shotgun (and three more in the back).
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  #223  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:22 PM
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My brain wants to agree but my heart does not.
I'm sorry. Truly, I am.

I didn't expect this 320i announcement at all. Even MB and their CLA is a different car than the C, different chassis, making it look a bit like a Gran Coupe. I just don't see how a 1 Sedan fits here.

BJ
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  #224  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:26 PM
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If you don't even know the facts, then how can you form any opinion? Oh wait, you had make your own facts I still remember the 98% fact.

This is exactly why BMW is at the top, they don't ignore any potential threat. Caddy has been the loudest taunting BMW in the past year or two, they need to shut them up, while at the same time convince people like you they could care less about the ATS. Not a difficult thing to do with fanboys, but BMW knows they need to sell non-fanboys.

Of course there are other things to consider. But the CLA is not necessarily targeting the exact same market. Yes there will be cross shoppers between F30 and CLA, but if BMW is really serious about the CLA, they would have worked on a new 4-door 1 series model, but FWD. I think they will though. From the intial impression, the CLA could grab a lot of drivers moving up from Camry, Accord, Altima, Civic, Corolla and VWs...who don't know what is the point of an RWD.
I know how much you like to make everything about the ATS, but be real. The thing isn't selling. It's a pig. A pig for 80 year old women.

When your primary competitor drops a $30,000 el-cheapo luxury car into the market, you have to react. BMW saw the CLA, knew that it could hurt the 3 Series, boom, 320i. Hit a few buttons, ship 'em south of Canada, MB threat neutralized.

BMW responding to Cadillac and the ATS is like McDonald's responding to Michael's Burger Castle and their house special, the Big Mike.

BJ
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  #225  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I know how much you like to make everything about the ATS, but be real. The thing isn't selling. It's a pig. A pig for 80 year old women.

When your primary competitor drops a $30,000 el-cheapo luxury car into the market, you have to react. BMW saw the CLA, knew that it could hurt the 3 Series, boom, 320i. Hit a few buttons, ship 'em south of Canada, MB threat neutralized.
BMW responding to Cadillac and the ATS is like McDonald's responding to Michael's Burger Castle and their house special, the Big Mike.

BJ
The MB CLA is not "neutralized" a bit. It will still sell very well, IMO, because it's a very sexy ride.
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