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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #301  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:14 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Bring it on.

If in a typical week I see 10 335i's and 50 328i's now I'll see 5 335i's, 30 328i's, and 40 320i's. Most of the 320i buyers will be 328i E90 owners who are happy to trade horsepower they don't need for comfort features and technology they can appreciate. That's ultimately the endgame here. BMW is no longer forcing someone to choose the badge and crisp handling over options. Now you can cut the performance and add gobs of goodies.

In the end, it's only 15 incremental F30's I'll see, that's 2 per day, not anything I'm going to notice. Some people think I'm in a 328i because it's some 'exclusive' car. I'm not, but it still is.

BJ
Yes you are a finance genius according to BJ, making the most thoughful decisions for you and your family, and has said the same about BMW.

Now if we assume the average profits BMW makes on the above models are $5k for 335i, $4.5K for 328i and $0.5K for 320i, since as stated before it would likely cost about the same to manufacture a base 320i than a base 328i, but a 320i sells for $4k less.

Your happy ending breakdown of the makeup of the F30s above just cost BMW a ton of profit. Did you leave your financial wisdom at your door, or are you just happy to see them make a lot less money? Maybe you are correct you are not much an executive type

Last edited by dtc100; 01-16-2013 at 04:18 PM.
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  #302  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Yes you are a finance genius according to BJ, making the most thoughful decisions for you and your family, and has said the same about BMW.

Now if we assume the average profits BMW makes on the above models are $5k for 335i, $4.5K for 328i and $0.5K for 320i, since as stated before it would likely cost about the same to manufacture a base 320i than a base 328i, but a 320i sells for $4k less.

Your happy ending breakdown of the makeup of the F30s above just cost BMW a ton of profit. Did you leave your financial wisdom at your door, or are you just happy to see them make a lot less money? Maybe you are correct you are not much an executive type
BMW doesn't just launch a new low-end 3 Series variant without doing some serious modeling.

And when the number crunchers in Munich ran their models, it showed them that they would sell X million more units and make X million more dollars by launching the 320i. There is also something called a lifetime value model which says that getting a 23 year old buyer at a $4000 loss hurts in 2013 but pays back in buckets by 2023. Retention and owner loyalty are extremely high with BMW, and this car is not designed just to get a quick buck as that's not something that BMW needs right now.

BJ
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  #303  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:44 PM
Axxlrod Axxlrod is offline
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So when does the 320i go on sale in the US?
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  #304  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:54 PM
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So when does the 320i go on sale in the US?
June.

BJ
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  #305  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:59 PM
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Retention and owner loyalty are extremely high with BMW, and this car is not designed just to get a quick buck as that's not something that BMW needs right now.

BJ

That was the job of the 1-series.

320i is not necessarely for youngters.
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  #306  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:13 PM
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That was the job of the 1-series.

320i is not necessarely for youngters.
The fact that there's no 1 series sedan to me says that BMW NA didn't intend it to be a cheap BMW. It's more a niche car like the Mini.

And when/if BMW does eventually sell a smaller rear-drive sedan (2 series probably), my guess is it won't be cheap, it'll be a premium small sedan.

When the 1 series moves to front drive, then you'll have a cheap BMW. I'd rather they didn't go that route, they'll become like VW, but it seems to be their plan.
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  #307  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:13 PM
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The fact that there's no 1 series sedan to me says that BMW NA didn't intend it to be a cheap BMW. It's more a niche car like the Mini.

And when/if BMW does eventually sell a smaller rear-drive sedan (2 series probably), my guess is it won't be cheap, it'll be a premium small sedan.

When the 1 series moves to front drive, then you'll have a cheap BMW. I'd rather they didn't go that route, they'll become like VW, but it seems to be their plan.
There won't be a 1 Sedan or a 2 Sedan.

The 320i is it.

BJ
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  #308  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:15 PM
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I really don't see the 320i being a loss leader - to get a stripped one you'll have to order that, which few people do. It seems to be (a) making HP an option, expanding buyer choice, and (b) to get buyers into the showroom thinking they'll spend $33k, and having them drive out in a $40k car.
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  #309  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:17 PM
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There won't be a 1 Sedan or a 2 Sedan.

The 320i is it.

BJ
BMW is planning to greatly expand their lineup, with front drive 1 series sedans, a whole range of 2 series cars, coupes, sedans etc. The 320i is just the beginning.
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  #310  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:17 PM
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The fact that there's no 1 series sedan to me says that BMW NA didn't intend it to be a cheap BMW. It's more a niche car like the Mini.

And when/if BMW does eventually sell a smaller rear-drive sedan (2 series probably), my guess is it won't be cheap, it'll be a premium small sedan.

When the 1 series moves to front drive, then you'll have a cheap BMW. I'd rather they didn't go that route, they'll become like VW, but it seems to be their plan.
this is dead on it seems.

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  #311  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:18 PM
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Did a build on bmwusa.com on a base 320i with ZPP, leather, and fold-down seat(standard in 328i) to match with a base 328i with ZPP only, and the MSRP difference is $2300. So it boils down to $2k for 60+HP, not a bad deal for 328i. The ZSP on 320i is $1300 for 18-inch wheel and sports suspension.. A DD configuration of base 320i+ZLP+ZSP runs $35.5k MSRP, the price point appears to be a bit high.

320i ZPP(which shows the missing gadgets in base 320i)

• Auto-dimming rearview mirror
• Auto-dimming interior and exterior mirrors
• Storage package
• Comfort Access keyless entry
• Power front seats with driver seat memory
• Satellite radio with 1 year subscription
• Universal garage-door opener
• Lumbar support
• Moonroof
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  #312  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:36 PM
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Sounds pretty good to me. Have been pricing 2005 328 wagons and they ask for about 3K. A brand new 329d at 33K seems pretty good to me. But in the end it's the buyer's decision. Do you want it or not? your choice
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  #313  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:50 PM
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BMW is planning to greatly expand their lineup, with front drive 1 series sedans, a whole range of 2 series cars, coupes, sedans etc. The 320i is just the beginning.
I hope so, but let's look at the 1 Coupe and the 4 Coupe for an example.

The 4 Coupe is $40,000.

The 1 Coupe is $31,000.

The 328i Sedan is $38,000.

The 320i Sedan is $30,000.

BJ
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  #314  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:50 PM
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There is a recent survey of the ATS drivers showing there is a very good chance the average age of the ATS drivers is much lower than that of the F30 drivers. As I said BMW needs to lower the average age of its drivers. Introducing the 320i might help.

Can you imagine an average BMW driver older than a Caddy driver?
Yes I can. Caddy is clearly marketing to the younger crowd. Their ads were all over the BCS bowl's. It seemed every other commercial was for the ATS. Their selling point? We drove really fast and it didn't go over the cliff. Not something that appeals to the soccer mom or copier salesman (sorry for the generalities).

Adding to that, the age of the people in the ads. I haven't seen an ATS ad (any channel) with someone older than 35 driving.
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  #315  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:56 PM
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Yes I can. Caddy is clearly marketing to the younger crowd. Their ads were all over the BCS bowl's. It seemed every other commercial was for the ATS. Their selling point? We drove really fast and it didn't go over the cliff. Not something that appeals to the soccer mom or copier salesman (sorry for the generalities).

Adding to that, the age of the people in the ads. I haven't seen an ATS ad (any channel) with someone older than 35 driving.


This has happened before, and it doesn't end well.

For decades, Cadillac has tried the "we are for young people!" ad campaigns and they bomb. Time and time again, their core customers don't buy the smaller car and the customers they aspire to attract ignore them because of the old-man stigma of the brand. They spend millions, they make a big media splash, they win a lot of awards, they get the obligatory "3 Series Killer?" bylines, same result.

So far, sales of the ATS support that this is another bust by GM. Ask any kid in college, he doesn't want to drive a Cadillac. Ask any recent graduate, he doesn't want to drive a Cadillac. Ask any up and coming executive, he can't be seen in a Cadillac. Its what it is.

BJ
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  #316  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I hope so, but let's look at the 1 Coupe and the 4 Coupe for an example.

The 4 Coupe is $40,000.

The 1 Coupe is $31,000.

The 328i Sedan is $38,000.

The 320i Sedan is $25,000.

So what's the price of a 1 Sedan? Has to be less than the 3 Sedan whose floor is $25,000. But can't be too significant a jump to the 1 Coupe which starts at $31,000. The 'missing' pricepoint that the 1 Sedan might have hit is $25,000 and I can't see BMW having two 4-door Sedan's at $25,000 just because one is smaller and the other larger. Doesn't make sense.

BMW knew that the CLA was coming and they didn't build something to counter it. They instead took a full-sized 3 Series and de-spec'd it to hit a pricepoint. Put another way, perhaps only if the 320i fails will BMW replace it with a 1 Sedan. Just isn't enough wiggle room on pricing. The 320i just gobbled it up.

BJ
What do you mean by $25k, isn't the 320i $33k?

I think the small sedan will be a 2 series Gran Coupe, so it'll be higher priced than just a basic small sedan. Maybe similar to the 1 series in price.
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  #317  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I hope so, but let's look at the 1 Coupe and the 4 Coupe for an example.

The 4 Coupe is $40,000.

The 1 Coupe is $31,000.

The 328i Sedan is $38,000.

The 320i Sedan is $25,000.

So what's the price of a 1 Sedan? Has to be less than the 3 Sedan whose floor is $25,000. But can't be too significant a jump to the 1 Coupe which starts at $31,000. The 'missing' pricepoint that the 1 Sedan might have hit is $25,000 and I can't see BMW having two 4-door Sedan's at $25,000 just because one is smaller and the other larger. Doesn't make sense.

BMW knew that the CLA was coming and they didn't build something to counter it. They instead took a full-sized 3 Series and de-spec'd it to hit a pricepoint. Put another way, perhaps only if the 320i fails will BMW replace it with a 1 Sedan. Just isn't enough wiggle room on pricing. The 320i just gobbled it up.

BJ
Where is the number $25,000 coming from?

You seem to suggest BMW did not plan this well, even though they know what they are doing. Both MB and Audi have smaller FWD sedans coming, only MB's CLA comes out first. So maybe the 320i is just a stop gap measure at the expense of lowered profit?

The reason a small RWD sedan does not work is because there is not enough room. If BMW is really trying to match the effort of MB and Audi, then don't be surprised they unveil a small FWD sedan later, unrelated to the 320i.
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  #318  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


This has happened before, and it doesn't end well.

For decades, Cadillac has tried the "we are for young people!" ad campaigns and they bomb. Time and time again, their core customers don't buy the smaller car and the customers they aspire to attract ignore them because of the old-man stigma of the brand. They spend millions, they make a big media splash, they win a lot of awards, they get the obligatory "3 Series Killer?" bylines, same result.

So far, sales of the ATS support that this is another bust by GM. Ask any kid in college, he doesn't want to drive a Cadillac. Ask any recent graduate, he doesn't want to drive a Cadillac. Ask any up and coming executive, he can't be seen in a Cadillac. Its what it is.

BJ
The problem is, you have not asked anyone, or cared to look at any stats, everything you say just comes out of your own you know what
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  #319  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:08 PM
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this is dead on it seems.

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Actually, they already are VW. The brand has been shifting downmarket without a doubt, their cars have become very affordable to the average person.

Here are the top 10 best selling cars in the UK last year.

Ford Fiesta 109,262
Vauxhall Corsa 89,434
Ford Focus 83,115
Vauxhall Astra 63,023
Volkswagen Golf 62,021
Nissan Qashqai 45,675
BMW 3-Series 44,521
Volkswagen Polo 41,901
Mercedes-Benz C-Class 37,261
BMW 1-Series 34,488

and the top 10 manufacturers (all models)

Ford 281,917
Vauxhall 232,255
Volkswagen 183,098
BMW 127,530
Audi 123,622
Nissan 105,835
Peugeot 99,486
Mercedes-Benz 91,855
Toyota 84,563
Hyundai 74,285
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  #320  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:10 PM
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Yes I can. Caddy is clearly marketing to the younger crowd. Their ads were all over the BCS bowl's. It seemed every other commercial was for the ATS. Their selling point? We drove really fast and it didn't go over the cliff. Not something that appeals to the soccer mom or copier salesman (sorry for the generalities).

Adding to that, the age of the people in the ads. I haven't seen an ATS ad (any channel) with someone older than 35 driving.
Cadillac has a tough job. If you told me I had to compete against the 3 series, as well as the A4/S4, the C class, plus all the Japanese, I’d be looking for a new job. They want to market the car for young people, but they toned down the styling to to the state of blandness, to avoid offending Chinese buyers. Then they set the pricing as high as BMW. I mean who, really, is going to buy this car? It doesn’t have the beautiful design of BMW, Audi or MB, nor does it have the great reputation of Lexus or Infiniti. Nor is it a bang for the buck bargain like Infiniti or Acura.

The ATS-V won’t even have the LS V8 going for it, it’ll be just another anonymous turbo V6. I think I’m pretty unbiased, and I see failure. It’ll sell Lexus numbers, not BMW numbers.
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  #321  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Where is the number $25,000 coming from?

You seem to suggest BMW did not plan this well, even though they know what they are doing. Both MB and Audi have smaller FWD sedans coming, only MB's CLA comes out first. So maybe the 320i is just a stop gap measure at the expense of lowered profit?

The reason a small RWD sedan does not work is because there is not enough room. If BMW is really trying to match the effort of MB and Audi, then don't be surprised they unveil a small FWD sedan later, unrelated to the 320i.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
What do you mean by $25k, isn't the 320i $33k?

I think the small sedan will be a 2 series Gran Coupe, so it'll be higher priced than just a basic small sedan. Maybe similar to the 1 series in price.
My bad, the 1 Sedan could live at $25,000 but it's a really low pricepoint, not sure if BMW would do that.

As far as upscaling it, it's an interesting idea, I might buy one, but if it's smaller than the F30 and more expensive, not sure there are enough customers to support it.

BJ
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  #322  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:13 PM
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The ATS-V won’t even have the LS V8 going for it, it’ll be just another anonymous turbo V6.
The F80 M3 won't even have the S65 V8 going for it, it'll be just another anonymous turbo I6.

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  #323  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:14 PM
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The problem is, you have not asked anyone, or cared to look at any stats, everything you say just comes out of your own you know what


Stats.

BJ
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  #324  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:16 PM
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Cadillac has a tough job. If you told me I had to compete against the 3 series, as well as the A4/S4, the C class, plus all the Japanese, I’d be looking for a new job. They want to market the car for young people, but they toned down the styling to to the state of blandness, to avoid offending Chinese buyers. Then they set the pricing as high as BMW. I mean who, really, is going to buy this car? It doesn’t have the beautiful design of BMW, Audi or MB, nor does it have the great reputation of Lexus or Infiniti. Nor is it a bang for the buck bargain like Infiniti or Acura.

The ATS-V won’t even have the LS V8 going for it, it’ll be just another anonymous turbo V6. I think I’m pretty unbiased, and I see failure. It’ll sell Lexus numbers, not BMW numbers.
...and, it'll cannibalize Cadillac itself, trading its own customers down, not getting any new customers, death spiral.

BJ
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  #325  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Cadillac has a tough job. If you told me I had to compete against the 3 series, as well as the A4/S4, the C class, plus all the Japanese, I’d be looking for a new job. They want to market the car for young people, but they toned down the styling to to the state of blandness, to avoid offending Chinese buyers. Then they set the pricing as high as BMW. I mean who, really, is going to buy this car? It doesn’t have the beautiful design of BMW, Audi or MB, nor does it have the great reputation of Lexus or Infiniti. Nor is it a bang for the buck bargain like Infiniti or Acura.

The ATS-V won’t even have the LS V8 going for it, it’ll be just another anonymous turbo V6. I think I’m pretty unbiased, and I see failure. It’ll sell Lexus numbers, not BMW numbers.
Toning it down is not a surprise, to young people or not, the CTS style is too edgy. Toning it down for the Chinese? Really? Just say you don't like the style, but don't stretch it.
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