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BMW i3 / i8 / ActiveE
Are you excited about the upcoming BMW i3 or i8? Interested in learning more about the BMW ActiveE? This is the place for you!

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  #26  
Old 01-17-2013, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnestHouse View Post
EVs, advanced diesel, AND Hybrids are the answer.

Fixed your post :-)


There are many non-hybrid cars that use very little fuel. Most aren't sold in the US.


Here are some of them:

Fiat 500 twin-air
MINI Cooper D
Audi A3 1.6TDI
VW Up!
VW Polo 1.4TSI
VW Golf Blue Motion 1.6TDI
Mercdes A180
BMW 320d Efficient Dynamics
Opel Corsa 1.2 Diesel
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  #27  
Old 01-17-2013, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew*Debbie View Post
....the truthyness of my posts may vary.
How true.

Your little non-hybrid cars are a distraction. They have to be so small and light as to be of less and less use. They compete with EVs and dilute the pace at which EVs can make inroads to adoption. For the US, diesels are a distraction as well. We should be investing in recharge infrastructure not bifurcated diesel and petrol fuels supply. Infrastructure costs resources as has environmental impact too. Car maker and infrastructure efforts should be put toward EVs and Hybrids.

Last edited by ErnestHouse; 01-17-2013 at 08:09 AM.
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  #28  
Old 01-17-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ErnestHouse View Post
How true.

They have to be so small and light as to be of less and less use.
A F30 320d ED is too small and too light?

A UK Prius is rated 3.9l/100km or 72mpg-Imperial. A BMW F20 1 Series uses slightly less fuel. An F30 320d uses slightly more than a Prius.

Besides what is wrong with a light car? A light car is a fast car.



Quote:
For the US, diesels are a distraction as well. We should be investing in recharge infrastructure not bifurcated diesel and petrol fuels supply.

But there is a diesel distribution system already in place. If there was more demand for diesel, more retailers would carry it. Even the current distribution network is more than adequate. When I lived in the US I don't think I ever lived more than 10 miles from a station that pumped diesel.


Don't take this wrong. I'm an EV supporter. You may have noticed I'm planning to be an early adopter.
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  #29  
Old 01-17-2013, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ProRail View Post
To quote Yogi Berra: "Nobody goes here because it's always too crowded."
People/things COME here, and GO there. The quote was effectively ""Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded." However, Berra once stated, "I really didn't say everything I said."
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  #30  
Old 01-17-2013, 01:33 PM
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The point I made was about the tiny cars makers are forced into when they are trying to get hi mileage without electric assist. Those gas/diesel only cars end up with tiny cabins and gas mower engines. They do not serve the needs of very many people.

A 2012 Prius is a Hybrid and gets 50 MPG combined. A BMW 1 Series 28i gets 33. That's not "slightly less". An Active Hybrid 3 gets 33. Ditto

The diesel infrastructure is there principally for long haulers and construction. Having cars on diesel is piggy backing on it. If you flood the general population with more TDIs then more pumps have to be build or gas ones converted to diesel. Scaling diesel up doesn't come for free. It all adds up to wasting resources chasing something that won't go the distance.
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  #31  
Old 01-17-2013, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ErnestHouse View Post
The point I made was about the tiny cars makers are forced into when they are trying to get hi mileage without electric assist. Those gas/diesel only cars end up with tiny cabins and gas mower engines. They do not serve the needs of very many people.

A 2012 Prius is a Hybrid and gets 50 MPG combined. A BMW 1 Series 28i gets 33. That's not "slightly less". An Active Hybrid 3 gets 33. Ditto.
Shall I repeat the post about the 320d. The 320d gets BETTER mileage than a Prius, and will outrun one easily with 163hp and a lot of torque. That's no mower engine.

Want more fun? Look at a 123d - a bit more boost, and 204hp and even more torque - and still almost the same mileage as a Pious.

Too bad these cars aren't sold in the USA because the majority believes as you do. I've driven them in Europe, and they're quite fun.
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  #32  
Old 01-17-2013, 02:18 PM
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According to Fuelly, the best 320d is 41mpg but the majority is 34. The gas models are high 30's and the majority is 41.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d/diesel

The best 123d is 43 but the majority is in the 30's. The gas models are hi 30's:
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/123d/diesel%20l4

So for all that C02 and particulates from diesel, a gas hybrid with an even smaller gas engine in those cars would deliver the same performance with less fuel and emissions. And, anything that's done to make the car lighter or have less drag helps the hybrid. No matter the car, a hybrid version of it will deliver flat out more mileage/less emissions with the same performance.

My statements about diesel were based on the US infrastructure.
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  #33  
Old 01-17-2013, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ErnestHouse View Post
According to Fuelly, the best 320d is 41mpg but the majority is 34. The gas models are high 30's and the majority is 41.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d/diesel
I don't see any 2012 F30 320d ED cars in your link to Fuely. Not the same as a e90. Different car and different engine.
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  #34  
Old 01-17-2013, 07:11 PM
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They call them Diesel H4. Mostly in the 30's here:
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d/2012

Doesn't matter. Take any engine and you can get the same performance with a smaller hybrid for less fuel and emissions. Or, for the race car wannabees on the drive to the office, add a hybrid drive train to the engine you have for another 50bhp of performance and beat that Prius off the line at the red light.
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  #35  
Old 01-18-2013, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ErnestHouse View Post
They call them Diesel H4. Mostly in the 30's here:
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d/2012

There are several versions of the F30 320d. The ED version is supposed to use about 11% less fuel. Fuelly doesn't seperate them by version While the sample size is small, (12) the distribution is interesting.







I looked at the individual cars. A couple are F30 M Sports.

This one (http://www.fuelly.com/driver/moonster98/320d) is an e90! At 30.1 MPG it is at the low end of the range. I'm going to throw that one out since it isn't an F30.


With the e90 removed, the distribution is:

29: 1
31: 2
32: 1
36: 2
38: 1
41: 1
42: 1
44: 3

Other interesting things I noticed. The two UK cars are both in the 44 slot. 4 of the 5 cars from Malaysia are at the low end of distribution. Then I went and looked at the BMW Malaysia website --> http://www.bmw.com.my/com/en/newvehi...ata/index.html -- The 320d EfficientDynamics isn't on the Malaysia website. The specs only show the regular 320d.

None of the 5 Malaysian cars are a 320d EfficientDynamics. Taking those cars out changes the distribution to mostly 40s but the sample size is getting very small.


THen I decided to look at some other cars:

There are only 2 current generation MINI Clubman D's on Fuelly. 43 and 46 mpg-US.

I couldn't find any BlueMotion Golfs on Fuelly. I did find 3 BlueMotion Polos. 45, 50 and 54 MPG.


Yes, the Prius does a little better than these cars. But the Prius isn't a driver's car. Neither is a Leaf which is one of the main reasons we don't have one.




Quote:
Doesn't matter. Take any engine and you can get the same performance with a smaller hybrid for less fuel and emissions.

Maybe. If someone sold it. Here in the UK, I can buy a 320d ED for 28,410 On the road. Cars are priced "On the Road" and including all taxes and fees. A 320d M-Sport is 31,410.


An ActiveHybrid 3 SE is 40,565 and and ActiveHybrid 3 M-Sport is 43,565.


Apples to Oranges of course. The Active Hybrid is faster and uses far more fuel than the 320d. A fair comparison would be a 335i. 0-60 times are essentially the same. A 335i M-Sport lists for 37,870. Is the Hybrid really worth an extra 5700??



Peugeot and Citroen have started selling a few diesel hybrids. I haven't paid much attention to them as they power cars I'm not that interested in.
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Last edited by Andrew*Debbie; 01-18-2013 at 03:41 AM.
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  #36  
Old 01-18-2013, 06:35 AM
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I think my point stands. EV AND Hybrids are the way to go. Hybrids CAN be drivers cars. Petrol will be always be cleaner than diesel. Petrol based Hybrids will have lower emissions than Diesel ones. By definition, engine only pursuits will fall short (in both consumption and emissions) of those same engines in a hybrid configuration. EV AND Hybrids serve both owner and population/environment. Engine only pursuits serve only the owner. One could use the word selfish I suppose, but I won't.
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