X5 35d vs. Porsche Cayenne Diesel

Originally Posted by Emission

I like the new Jeep Grand Cherokee. Keep in mind that it is a close cousin to the new Mercedes-Benz ML-Class... they share quite a few components (making the Jeep a much better SUV).

Another thing to note is that the Jeep's upcoming 3.0-liter turbodiesel is not the same unit found under the hood of the Mercedes... it is borrowed from Fiat!

The Jeep's new engine sounds pretty good on paper: "...the main event here is a comprehensively updated powertrain menu, including the aforementioned alt-fuel option, a 3.0-liter EcoDiesel V6 that Chrysler expects will deliver 240 horsepower and 420 pound-feet of torque. Owners can expect 21 miles per gallon in the city and 30 on the highway, and the model features a 7,400-pound tow rating to go with its leg-crossing cruising range of up to 730 miles on a single tank."

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/14/2...ensive-update/

- Mike

How is Fiat's reputation on engine reliability?

Originally Posted by henrycyao

How is Fiat's reputation on engine reliability?

Good question. I have no idea... so I did a quick search... seems quite nice.

The engine is made by VM Motori, an Italian engine manufacturer owned by Fiat.

DISPLACEMENT: 3.0L (182 ci)
CONFIGURATION: 60-degree, even-fire V-6
ENGINE WEIGHT: 498 pounds
BORE AND STROKE: 83 mm x 92 mm (3.26 in. x 3.62 in.)
COMPRESSION RATIO: 16.5:1
ENGINE BLOCK: Compacted-graphite iron (CGI) casting that weighs 159 pounds, featuring four 14mm head bolts per cylinder
BEDPLATE: A one-piece, 35-pound assembly retains the crankshaft and ties the bottom of the block together with six 12mm bolts per main bearing
CRANKSHAFT: Forged 4140 steel with 74mm (2.91 in.) main bearing journals and 67.5mm (2.66 in.) connecting rod journals, externally balanced
CYLINDER HEAD: Aluminum castings with four valves per cylinder
VALVETRAIN: Dual overhead camshafts (DOHC) with roller finger followers and hydraulic lash adjustment
VALVE SIZE: 28.5mm (1.12 in.) intake, 25.4mm (1.00 in.) exhaust
BASE POWER RATING: 221 to 268 hp at 4,000 rpm
BASE TORQUE OUTPUT: 369 to 421 lb-ft at 2,000 rpm
MAXIMUM ENGINE SPEED: 4,800 rpm
FUEL SYSTEM: Bosch common-rail injection with a CP4.2 pump and CRIN 3.4 solenoid injectors capable of running up to 29,000 psi (2,000 bar) and seven injection events
TURBOCHARGER: Electronically controlled variable geometry with water-cooled ball-bearing cartridge in high-power applications

I'm not sure how much exposure motori has had to top level emissions regulations, and we all know it caused issues with early BMW, Ford, etc.

Motori has been making diesels for a long time, even the Jeep Liberty came with a 2.8L motori for a while and although the vehicle is nothing special, diesel enthusiasts (bargain hunters) snatch them up regularly.

The diesel world is very excited about this engine, I haven't heard a peep about reliability concerns if that gives you a sense of their dna.

Jay

Originally Posted by henrycyao

How is Fiat's reputation on engine reliability?

Fix It Again Tony. Fiat has crap quality. Always has

Originally Posted by Emission

Steering weight, steering feel, and steering accuracy are all mutually exclusive. That said, I really like BMW's heavy steering on the X5, but many of my peers feel it is too heavy.

I like the new Jeep Grand Cherokee. Keep in mind that it is a close cousin to the new Mercedes-Benz ML-Class... they share quite a few components (making the Jeep a much better SUV).

Another thing to note is that the Jeep's upcoming 3.0-liter turbodiesel is not the same unit found under the hood of the Mercedes... it is borrowed from Fiat!

The Jeep's new engine sounds pretty good on paper: "...the main event here is a comprehensively updated powertrain menu, including the aforementioned alt-fuel option, a 3.0-liter EcoDiesel V6 that Chrysler expects will deliver 240 horsepower and 420 pound-feet of torque. Owners can expect 21 miles per gallon in the city and 30 on the highway, and the model features a 7,400-pound tow rating to go with its leg-crossing cruising range of up to 730 miles on a single tank."

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/14/2...ensive-update/

- Mike

I was gonna post a new thread, but guess not. (Maybe we should change the name of the thread to "X5d vs competiton's diesels?"

Not bad. First diesel SUV out there with the coveted 30 mpg. BMW needs to step it up for the next gen. If the diesel JGC gains traction, people will start to realize that the BMW/Audi/Porsche/MB are poor value

I'll jump in here, may regret it but here goes! Chrysler has had build quality problems since the sixties, most of the time it was something other than the power plants - it was the rest of the vehicle. The rub on the BMW as I read these threads have nothing to do with drive train problems other than electronics, but at least they don't fall apart around you as you drive it! This is not a (I hate Chrysler products) reply as I have foolishly owned three at various times of my life, each time I spent a lot of time dealing with many niggling issues. JMO By the way, I don't think they faired so well when they were part of DB.

The VM Motori is owned jointly by Fiat and GM(!) it is a well respected diesel engine manufacturer with a large line of products. I had a beautiful VM inline turbo 6 in a boat that was outstanding and a quantum leap over the Ford Bedford diesel it replaced. Fiat may be "crap" here in the US but they seem to be doing nicely in the rest of the world. Remember after all who owns Ferrari, Maserati, and Alfa! I would love to see the review on the new US spec JGC diesel (Mike?).

Originally Posted by UncleJ

The VM Motori is owned jointly by Fiat and GM(!) it is a well respected diesel engine manufacturer with a large line of products. I had a beautiful VM inline turbo 6 in a boat that was outstanding and a quantum leap over the Ford Bedford diesel it replaced. Fiat may be "crap" here in the US but they seem to be doing nicely in the rest of the world. Remember after all who owns Ferrari, Maserati, and Alfa! I would love to see the review on the new US spec JGC diesel (Mike?).

Agreed. Fiat may have a lousy reputation here, but so does BMW to many folk.

I'm already one step ahead of you... I'm asking to drive one.

- Mike

which part of the world you have in your mind? definitely not in Europe

Originally Posted by UncleJ

(...) Fiat may be "crap" here in the US but they seem to be doing nicely in the rest of the world. Remember after all who owns Ferrari, Maserati, and Alfa! (...)

Overall they seem to be doing as well as others, but no doubt there is a slowdown over there especially in Italy. Certainly F.I.A.T. is a major player there and not so much here.
Mike, will look forward to your review!

I was considering a Jeep until I wathced ""

Originally Posted by Toast.

I was considering a Jeep until I wathced "The Moose Test"

Jeep replied:

"Grand Cherokee Statement for Teknikens Varld Test

Chrysler Group engineers are investigating a Swedish magazine's evaluation of the 2012 Grand
Cherokee. During the evaluation, the publication was able to capture images of a Grand Cherokee on two wheels as it performed an extreme maneuver in an overloaded condition.

Advised of this event by the magazine, Chrysler Group engineers made numerous attempts to
reproduce the wheel-lift in a properly loaded vehicle. Extensive testing produced no such result.
A subsequent evaluation was conducted by the magazine July 8 in Sweden and witnessed by Chrysler Group engineers. Three vehicles performed 11 runs on a course prepared by the magazine. None reproduced the original event.

The uncharacteristic result was obtained using a vehicle loaded beyond its weight specifications. The Grand Cherokee's weight limitations are clearly stated on the vehicle and in the owner's manual. Also, the extreme maneuver performed by the magazine is not certified by any regulatory agency, nor is it used to establish any sanctioned safety ratings.
Chrysler Group takes seriously any safety concerns and engineers are examining the event to better understand the magazine's claims.

A "Top Safety Pick" of the U.S. Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, the 2012 Grand Cherokee is an award-winning SUV that features Electronic Stability Control and Electronic Roll Mitigation as
standard equipment. It meets or exceeds all government safety mandates and its outstanding
performance has made it the most awarded SUV in history."

It is interesting to note that Jeep GC got a 3 star for roll over on the RWD vs. 4 stars in AWD. I guess AWD does make a difference in keeping the wheels on roll over test case.

Anyways, I am not worry about roll over in Jeep especially after it was stated to be an overloaded condition. Yeah, that is going to throw off the electronic stabilizer on any SUV or car. After all, momentum is what you are fighting against along with your chasis/suspension design.

Take a look at this video. The Fiesta ST lifted its wheel as it turn very hard. (skip to 2:30 to see it in a few seconds.) Although, this is apple to orange comparisons. It does show clearly why Ford Fiesta lifted its wheel. Its suspension reached its limitation of anti-roll and resulted in lifting actions due to all the weight thrown out wards as you turn. The same occurs with Jeep.

To be fair, in this case, it does look like a fun thing to do on the track.

Originally Posted by henrycyao

It is interesting to note that Jeep GC got a 3 star for roll over on the RWD vs. 4 stars in AWD. I guess AWD does make a difference in keeping the wheels on roll over test case.

Anyways, I am not worry about roll over in Jeep especially after it was stated to be an overloaded condition. Yeah, that is going to throw off the electronic stabilizer on any SUV or car. After all, momentum is what you are fighting against along with your chasis/suspension design.

Take a look at this video. The Fiesta ST lifted its wheel as it turn very hard. (skip to 2:30 to see it in a few seconds.) Although, this is apple to orange comparisons. It does show clearly why Ford Fiesta lifted its wheel. Its suspension reached its limitation of anti-roll and resulted in lifting actions due to all the weight thrown out wards as you turn. The same occurs with Jeep.

To be fair, in this case, it does look like a fun thing to do on the track.

AWD = More weight down low, aka lower center of gravity.

- Mike

There was a follow up video where they invited jeep engineers and they still had same problem. Also front tire blew 7 times. Not trying to pick on Jeep, I really do like this car.

Originally Posted by henrycyao

It is interesting to note that Jeep GC got a 3 star for roll over on the RWD vs. 4 stars in AWD. I guess AWD does make a difference in keeping the wheels on roll over test case.

Anyways, I am not worry about roll over in Jeep especially after it was stated to be an overloaded condition. Yeah, that is going to throw off the electronic stabilizer on any SUV or car. After all, momentum is what you are fighting against along with your chasis/suspension design.

Take a look at this video. The Fiesta ST lifted its wheel as it turn very hard. (skip to 2:30 to see it in a few seconds.) Although, this is apple to orange comparisons. It does show clearly why Ford Fiesta lifted its wheel. Its suspension reached its limitation of anti-roll and resulted in lifting actions due to all the weight thrown out wards as you turn. The same occurs with Jeep.

To be fair, in this case, it does look like a fun thing to do on the track.

Yet another advantage to AWD! The VW GTI's were also notable for lifting a rear wheel in "spirited" mode as well. Probably still are for that matter. I did find the video of the Ford ST to be very interesting -- I doubt we will be seeing that one in the Rental Car ranks however. I wonder how one would do against a 328????

Unless you do a fair amount of off road stuff I really don't see what all this Jeep love fest is all about really. Have you ever had one because I have had the pleasure twice and both were bad memories and I am really not bias to any badge but I would not touch one if they attached wings or pontoons for flying or fishing. they will fall apart well before you're financing has ended. Really....Jeep?

I too will stay away from Jeep. The one I had ( brand new 1999 V8 limited ) had a nice muscular engine and rather good looks and nice ground clearence, that's where the good things ended. It came with crappy leaky tires, the differentials whined and the tranny slammed since day one, all electrical windows packed up, it rolled like a baby cradle and you could see the gas needle moving. I could only stand it for 2 two years when I dumped it. I'm sure it's way better now but once burnt like that and never again. There are better choices.

If possible, I try not to give my hard earned money to a company that requires a government bailout to survive.

Originally Posted by georgejm

Unless you do a fair amount of off road stuff I really don't see what all this Jeep love fest is all about really. Have you ever had one because I have had the pleasure twice and both were bad memories and I am really not bias to any badge but I would not touch one if they attached wings or pontoons for flying or fishing. they will fall apart well before you're financing has ended. Really....Jeep?

I have owned two, but both a very long time ago. One was a Cherokee and had for a company vehicle, it lived at the shop. The other was a Grand Cherokee and it actually lasted pretty well. Neither saw offroad duty though unless someone considers a rock road as offroad.

Originally Posted by solstice

I too will stay away from Jeep. The one I had ( brand new 1999 V8 limited ) had a nice muscular engine and rather good looks and nice ground clearence, that's where the good things ended. It came with crappy leaky tires, the differentials whined and the tranny slammed since day one, all electrical windows packed up, it rolled like a baby cradle and you could see the gas needle moving. I could only stand it for 2 two years when I dumped it. I'm sure it's way better now but once burnt like that and never again. There are better choices.

Yep, the transmission could not last a year without a rebuild, interior parts falling off in your hand, dated electronics, air condition, and on and on. To buy a vehicle just because it will have a new diesel engine that may or may not be worth while is not good thinking, not with my hard earned money. Jeep is bottom tier at best and I have not received any memo that things have changed.

I am not going to defend Jeep -- but a lot has changed since 1999. If anyone told me that Hyundai/Kia would be serious players in the US market then I would have laughed at them. VW was one step up from Junque back then, Audi was almost ruined and the two BMW's I had (3 & 7 series) seemed to spend more time in the shop than on the road. In the automotive world things do change. According to what I have been able to read and observe (admittedly anecdotal) the new Jeep GC is light years better than the preceeding versions. Some of this has to do with Mercedes brief stewardship of the brand during which the new version (and the Durango) were developed alongside the ML and GL class, and the rest due to serious QC efforts. I am a bit of a MoPar guy -- my first 'rod was a '28 DeSoto Roadster with a '53 Dodge baby hemi shoehorned in -- so I have a fondness for the line. I am also a pragmatic sort and like to check everything out before i commit the coin. I am going to look carefully at the new Jeep diesel because it might be just the answer for me.

Originally Posted by UncleJ

I am not going to defend Jeep -- but a lot has changed since 1999. If anyone told me that Hyundai/Kia would be serious players in the US market then I would have laughed at them. VW was one step up from Junque back then, Audi was almost ruined and the two BMW's I had (3 & 7 series) seemed to spend more time in the shop than on the road. In the automotive world things do change. According to what I have been able to read and observe (admittedly anecdotal) the new Jeep GC is light years better than the preceeding versions. Some of this has to do with Mercedes brief stewardship of the brand during which the new version (and the Durango) were developed alongside the ML and GL class, and the rest due to serious QC efforts. I am a bit of a MoPar guy -- my first 'rod was a '28 DeSoto Roadster with a '53 Dodge baby hemi shoehorned in -- so I have a fondness for the line. I am also a pragmatic sort and like to check everything out before i commit the coin. I am going to look carefully at the new Jeep diesel because it might be just the answer for me.

If Chrysler has the will, skill and can pay the bill to make the GC truly competitive there should be a sweet spot where the market still punish it for it's history and reputation while Chrysler "over option" it to the price point to get back into the game, making it a bargain. However I doubt they have any of those three and that you might endup with a giant on clay feet decorated like a christmas tree with fragile low quality items.

Originally Posted by UncleJ

I am not going to defend Jeep -- but a lot has changed since 1999. If anyone told me that Hyundai/Kia would be serious players in the US market then I would have laughed at them. VW was one step up from Junque back then, Audi was almost ruined and the two BMW's I had (3 & 7 series) seemed to spend more time in the shop than on the road. In the automotive world things do change. According to what I have been able to read and observe (admittedly anecdotal) the new Jeep GC is light years better than the preceeding versions. Some of this has to do with Mercedes brief stewardship of the brand during which the new version (and the Durango) were developed alongside the ML and GL class, and the rest due to serious QC efforts. I am a bit of a MoPar guy -- my first 'rod was a '28 DeSoto Roadster with a '53 Dodge baby hemi shoehorned in -- so I have a fondness for the line. I am also a pragmatic sort and like to check everything out before i commit the coin. I am going to look carefully at the new Jeep diesel because it might be just the answer for me.

I agree. While no fan of its predecessors, the new GC really blew me away (mostly, because it is a Mercedes-Benz ML platform with Jeep clothing). It drives really well. I'd consider the diesel model.

- Mike

Thought I should bump this thread. lots of new stuff

http://www.freep.com/article/2013022...sey=nav%7Chead



This green is gorgeous!

A diesel-powered version of the iconic 911 Carrera sports car is off the table -- probably -- but every other combination of current and future technologies is in play as Porsche gears up to meet upcoming fuel-economy and emissions limits in Europe, the U.S. and China.

"There's no one solution," Wolfgang Hatz, Porsche R&D chief, told me during the North American International Auto Show last month. "Our strategy must rely on more than one pillar."

Buoyed by the success of the Cayenne SUV, Porsche's U.S. dealers are clamoring for more diesels, he said. The Cayenne diesel that went on sale in September is quicker from 0-60 m.p.h. and uses 21% less fuel in the EPA combined city/highway test than a comparably equipped Cayenne with a gasoline V6 and automatic transmission. The diesel is the top-selling Cayenne model and could account for one third of the SUV's U.S. sales this year.

"We're going to enlarge our diesel portfolio in the United States," Hatz said. A diesel version of the smaller Macan SUV that goes on sale in the U.S. in the second quarter of 2014 is likely. A diesel version of the Panamera four-door car is possible.

Hatz is also bullish on the future of gasoline engines as turbochargers and other systems wring more power from smaller, more fuel-efficient power plants.

"The third pillar of our strategy is plug-in (hybrid) technology," Hatz said. "Pure electric vehicles are not the right solution," because of their limited range and long charging time, he said. "We believe strongly in plug-ins."

Porsche's first plug-in hybrid is the eagerly awaited 918 Spyder super car. Priced at $845,000, it promises a 3.1-second 0-60 m.p.h. time, a top speed of 198 m.p.h. and an electric range of 16 miles with a V8 engine for longer trips. The 918 Spyder should arrive in the U.S. early in 2014.

"Any new technology has to be fun to drive to be a long-term success," Hatz said. "It's all about maximizing efficiency without penalizing performance. A car's a big investment. It should be fun."

Porsche will continue to obsess on shaving every excess ounce from its vehicles to save fuel. It will also add stop-start to all its vehicles, and make wider use of the "sailing" feature that shuts the engine off when you're coasting on the road.

While Hatz focuses on reducing fuel consumption and emissions, a lot of car lovers are more concerned about whether Porsche will retain its identity now that it's part of the Volkswagen group.

Hatz, who has also worked at BMW, Fiat, Opel and VW, is unconcerned. Porsche's 4,000 R&D staff members are now free to concentrate on things that are unique to Porsche, like handling and performance, he said. "If the electronic control unit for the door locks is the same as on a Passat, that's fine.

"The 911 will always use a flat-six" engine, he said, underlining one of Porsche's longtime features.

Hatz cites the VW Touareg and Porsche Cayenne SUVs as an example of model differentiation within the group. "The platform is the same, but the driving experience and looks are completely different."

The Macan midsize SUV, which goes on sale in Europe late this year, will be even more distinct from the Audi Q5 it shares a platform with, he said.

Porsche's legendary tech center in Weissach, not far from its headquarters in Zuffenhausen, just outside Stuttgart, is one of the VW group's three R&D hubs. Weissach will be the center of development for sports cars and a rear-drive platform for big luxury cars like the Panamera.

Looks like more diesels for us in the future from Porsche!