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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #26  
Old 01-23-2013, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by galahad05 View Post
Somewhere I read an informative post from one of the big N54 tuners, who mentioned that the DME firmware prevents full boost until oil temps reach 180 F.
On my car's gauge (2007 model) that's two ticks off of the base.

So essentially this is BMW Engineering's opinion on the matter.
The JB4 limits you to stock boost until you hit 160 degrees oil temp. After that it's funtime.
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  #27  
Old 01-23-2013, 08:04 PM
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Maybe that's why the manual says to drive as soon as you start it and not wait until the car warms up.
It says to drive off immediately because you're warming up everything together that way and thats what BMW wants. Tires, Diff,Transmission,Oil,Coolant etc... all at the same time. Driving off but keeping it moderate is the best way to do this.
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  #28  
Old 01-23-2013, 08:06 PM
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Took the M into work today and it took 20 minutes just to get an oil reading. Engine took forever to warm up. It was 15 out this morning.
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  #29  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:56 AM
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Not really. The bottom peg on the oil temp gauge is 160 Fahrenheit. That's much higher than ambient temperature. The engine is warmed up long before the needle moves.








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  #30  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat View Post
Okay, I know I'm comparing kiwi's to kumquats, but even in very temperate south east Texas temperatures, on the 328i I see this same behavior. I have a 4.5 mile commute to work. There are almost no days in the months between Nov 30 and Feb 28 that I ever get the temp gauge off the peg during my morning commute, and that usually includes two little engine races along the way.

I would very much like to see Ilsa's EKG!!
So, 328 convertibles have the temp gauge? It ain't fair.
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  #31  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by msypqcbg View Post
Not really. The bottom peg on the oil temp gauge is 160 Fahrenheit. That's much higher than ambient temperature. The engine is warmed up long before the needle moves.
Thats true IF 120F oil temp is considered "warmed up". Most here would agree 200-250F (oil temp) is a properly warmed engine. However, I wait until my coolant hits 120F and then slowly drive off. By them time I get out of the neighborhood, coolant would be close to 200F and im just getting a small reading on the oil gauge.
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  #32  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:22 PM
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Irrefutable evidence.

This morning I woke up to find it was zero F outside, and 14F in my garage where Ilsa had been hibernating, undriven, for a few weeks. I hooked up my Snap-On Solus Scanner and set it to graph four PID's, data streams from four sensors. They were rpm, engine oil temperature, coolant temperature in the cylinder head, and coolant temperature at the radiator outlet.

I was interested in comparing oil and coolant temperatures, and comparing their slopes to see what happens when.
Here's a summary of what the graphs show.

When I started the engine (it started instantly) the temperature values which displayed immediately showed the coolant at 17F and the oil at 36F. One of those two readings was incorrect and I suspected the oil temperature. I later found out that the minimum possible reading of the oil gauge was 36F, and that's what it showed.

I let the engine run about 90 seconds and backed it out of the garage and drove a mile through my neighborhood to the highway entrance. That took about two minutes. When I left the garage my readings were coolant 62F, Oil 36F (again, the lowest possible reading for the sensor). I had the heater on and could feel slight warmth (comparatively!) coming from the vents.

After a mile (about two minutes later) I was stopped at a light waiting to enter the highway ramp. My readings were Coolant 127 and Oil 48. The heater now felt very effective. The dashboard Oil Temp gauge had not budged off it's original baseline.

I got onto the highway and cruised at about 63 in 6th gear (2300 rpm). The oil and coolant temperatures continued to climb at a steady but unequal rate. After 6 miles the temperatures were Coolant 201, Oil 133. After 9 miles the temps were Coolant 199, Oil 162. I noticed that the Oil Gauge on the dashboard was a fraction of an inch above 160 and was accurate.

The oil temperature finally reached a maximum temperature of 205 after about 12 miles and then dropped to average 197 +-2F over the return trip. The Coolant was also 197 average with a 194 to 203 range. Verrry interesting.

The graph on the right was logged just as I noticed the oil temperature gauge begin to move. It shows an oil temperature of 162F.
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  #33  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:32 PM
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Maybe that's why the manual says to drive as soon as you start it and not wait until the car warms up.
Read a manual for a $40k German car! rotfl
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  #34  
Old 01-24-2013, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
This morning I woke up to find it was zero F outside, and 14F in my garage where Ilsa had been hibernating, undriven, for a few weeks. I hooked up my Snap-On Solus Scanner and set it to graph four PID's, data streams from four sensors. They were rpm, engine oil temperature, coolant temperature in the cylinder head, and coolant temperature at the radiator outlet.

I was interested in comparing oil and coolant temperatures, and comparing their slopes to see what happens when.
Here's a summary of what the graphs show.

When I started the engine (it started instantly) the temperature values which displayed immediately showed the coolant at 17F and the oil at 36F. One of those two readings was incorrect and I suspected the oil temperature. I later found out that the minimum possible reading of the oil gauge was 36F, and that's what it showed.

I let the engine run about 90 seconds and backed it out of the garage and drove a mile through my neighborhood to the highway entrance. That took about two minutes. When I left the garage my readings were coolant 62F, Oil 36F (again, the lowest possible reading for the sensor). I had the heater on and could feel slight warmth (comparatively!) coming from the vents.

After a mile (about two minutes later) I was stopped at a light waiting to enter the highway ramp. My readings were Coolant 127 and Oil 48. The heater now felt very effective. The dashboard Oil Temp gauge had not budged off it's original baseline.

I got onto the highway and cruised at about 63 in 6th gear (2300 rpm). The oil and coolant temperatures continued to climb at a steady but unequal rate. After 6 miles the temperatures were Coolant 201, Oil 133. After 9 miles the temps were Coolant 199, Oil 162. I noticed that the Oil Gauge on the dashboard was a fraction of an inch above 160 and was accurate.

The oil temperature finally reached a maximum temperature of 205 after about 12 miles and then dropped to average 197 +-2F over the return trip. The Coolant was also 197 average with a 194 to 203 range. Verrry interesting.

The graph on the right was logged just as I noticed the oil temperature gauge begin to move. It shows an oil temperature of 162F.
Wow ... what an incredible detail ..... thanks for giving us this narrative of what happens on startup and why we should take it easy til appropriate operating temperature is achieved in warm or cold climates!
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  #35  
Old 01-24-2013, 05:02 PM
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lol I was hoping to come in here and have someone tell me everyday when I wait wait wait till 200-220 to gun it I was over babying and could do it sooner
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  #36  
Old 01-24-2013, 05:26 PM
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Wow ... what an incredible detail ..... thanks for giving us this narrative of what happens on startup and why we should take it easy til appropriate operating temperature is achieved in warm or cold climates!
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Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
lol I was hoping to come in here and have someone tell me everyday when I wait wait wait till 200-220 to gun it I was over babying and could do it sooner
When BMW tells you to start driving as soon as the car is started, the reason may NOT be to make the engine last as long as possible. The toughest emissions requirements are those the exhaust must meet during the first few minutes of operation. The sooner the engine warms up the sooner the emissions come into full compliance. Starting and driving immediately probably makes negligible difference for those who otherwise drive conservatively and flip cars every few years anyway.

My regimen has always been, after starting, to let the engine come off fast idle, or one to two minutes of idling, and then to keep the engine in as low a gear as possible while not exceeding 2500 rpm until the engine (oil) has reached design temperature.

I have no empirical data at hand to support this method, just almost 50 years of car ownership, and 35 years of taking apart thousands of engines for various reasons. You want to make them last as long as possible, you gotta let them warm up just like an athlete does before exerting himself.
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  #37  
Old 01-24-2013, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
When BMW tells you to start driving as soon as the car is started, the reason may NOT be to make the engine last as long as possible. The toughest emissions requirements are those the exhaust must meet during the first few minutes of operation. The sooner the engine warms up the sooner the emissions come into full compliance. Starting and driving immediately probably makes negligible difference for those who otherwise drive conservatively and flip cars every few years anyway.

My regimen has always been, after starting, to let the engine come off fast idle, or one to two minutes of idling, and then to keep the engine in as low a gear as possible while not exceeding 2500 rpm until the engine (oil) has reached design temperature.

I have no empirical data at hand to support this method, just almost 50 years of car ownership, and 35 years of taking apart thousands of engines for various reasons. You want to make them last as long as possible, you gotta let them warm up just like an athlete does before exerting himself.
Hey DSX, Thank you much for the detailed diagnostic. Please explain a little about the sentence I bolded in your response. My morning commute meanders through the neighborhood. Usually at about 25-30 mph for the first 5 minutes. As I mentioned earlier in this thread many times 5.4 miles from home and pulling into my parking lot at work, the car has barely nudged off the 160F mark. I usually have minimally one opportunity to get above 2500 rpm quickly during my 15 minute commute and that is about 7-10 minutes from cold start when I need to merge onto the I-10 access road which is three lanes wide and people run it at 65mph if they have the room. Merging onto it from a dead stop is not for the timid. So, I guess my question really is, what is "designed temperature"?

Thanks.
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  #38  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat View Post
Hey DSX, Thank you much for the detailed diagnostic. Please explain a little about the sentence I bolded in your response. My morning commute meanders through the neighborhood. Usually at about 25-30 mph for the first 5 minutes. As I mentioned earlier in this thread many times 5.4 miles from home and pulling into my parking lot at work, the car has barely nudged off the 160F mark. I usually have minimally one opportunity to get above 2500 rpm quickly during my 15 minute commute and that is about 7-10 minutes from cold start when I need to merge onto the I-10 access road which is three lanes wide and people run it at 65mph if they have the room. Merging onto it from a dead stop is not for the timid. So, I guess my question really is, what is "designed temperature"?

Thanks.
Designed temperature is that temperature which the engineers arrived at which optimizes emission reduction, engine reliability and life, and mileage. For almost all cars in the world it is 192F to 197F. As a result all thermostats located at the coolant outlet begin to open at that temperature and after a few miles will be fully open at that temperature.
Here's something which will shock most people: Radiators do NOT cool the coolant! The reason is that if the coolant were dropped to ambient temperature, say 75F, it would cause thermal shock to engine components and also result in reduced mpg. Instead the radiator, fan, and the thermostat flow are configured so that the minimum amount of coolant flows through the radiator and returns to the engine only 10 to 15 F cooler than the designed temperature!

Now the question about being in the lowest gear possible given a reasonable goal of not exceeding 2500 rpm. Let's take an instance where you are going along and you can be in 4th gear at 2100 rpm or 5th gear at 1700 rpm. Until the engine warms up I would choose 4th at 2100. At first glance that would seem backwards, I'm asking the engine to run faster instead of slower. The reason is "load". It is easier for the engine to move the car when it is doing a higher rpm in a lower gear than a lower rpm in a higher gear. The amount of work required of each revolution to move the car forward is reduced when there are more revolutions per foot travelled. Makes sense? It's sorta like if you have to carry 5 twenty pound sacks of dirt fifty feet. Take them one at a time and you cover a lot more ground, but at the end you're breathing easy. Take all 100 pounds at once and you might be huffing.
So by making it easier for the engine to do the work, by dividing the work up into smaller bits (but more of them), the engine gets to loaf a little when it hasn't yet reached the design temperature discussed earlier.
Capisce?
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  #39  
Old 01-24-2013, 07:57 PM
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I don't think my 335 has ever been parked outside overnight in cold weather.

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  #40  
Old 01-24-2013, 08:30 PM
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Capisce?
Ich verstehe.

In my vernacular, drive in the gear and at the speed where the engine sounds and feels 'happy'. Don't lug it and don't make it howl.
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  #41  
Old 01-24-2013, 08:41 PM
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It always kills me to see people gunning their cars when it's cold out to pull out in traffic/etc. I try my best to not put my self in that situation on cold mornings and am very anal about taking it easy while the car warms up. I"m fortunate that my garage is pretty well insulated and it rarely get's below 50 degree's even if it's in the teens out.

I really don't understand though why the engineers left the temp gauge out of the 328, at least MY2011? Because I am always curious about 8 miles into my drive/12-15 min of slow/moderate speeds if my baby is ready to hit the on ramp like a scalded cat.

Great post to read thru and especially the data gathered by DSX. Very cool!
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  #42  
Old 01-26-2013, 06:07 AM
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Thanks, DSX! Some of my work commutes are 8 miles in total so, on those days, I'll be sure to take it easy especially during cold winter days.

Agree with "vanos" that omitting the oil temp gauge in the 328 was a bad decision.

Now as promised, I have attached a short goat caring video to continue furthering our collective knowledge in this important discipline. The "clear bright eyes" comment is of essential importance, I am considering LUX angel eyes, afterall!

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  #43  
Old 01-26-2013, 06:29 AM
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Now as promised, I have attached a short goat caring video to continue furthering our collective knowledge in this important discipline.
Bemo...I'm...I'm...at a loss for words.
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  #44  
Old 01-26-2013, 07:24 AM
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Bemo...I'm...I'm...at a loss for words.
It was early...
More importantly, I am now reading up on the Solus Scanner...
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  #45  
Old 01-26-2013, 07:32 AM
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Not really ..... that's why the needle moves .....
So you and others here are saying there's something about the physics in a BMW engine that's different from the rest of the world. I guess that's big news. Or nonsense.
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  #46  
Old 01-26-2013, 07:34 AM
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My M3 takes a while to warm up during the winter as well.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:10 PM
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Thanks DSX! Always appreciate your expertise on this forum.I too have always been old school about engine warming, and mntx in general.
I am, however, a little confused by your "Radiators do NOT cool the coolant!" comment. Do you mean they only cool the water content of the fluid?
Can you elaborate on that a bit more?
Thanks!
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:55 PM
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Yesterday, after pretty good rains here in So Cal, I went to start my car in the morning. It struggled and chugged and you could here the waste gates rattling and can flap going nuts. It sounded like it would die. I turned it off and started it again. Same thing. Prior to this it had been struggling a little on cold starts then steadied out after warming up then good all day. Service engine light came on. I hooked up my code reader and got misfire codes on cylinders 1,2,3, and 4. I let it run an eventually it warmed up and drove around fine for the day (Sunday and couldn't go to dealer). This morning I started it and it was a little rough but not as bad and smoothed out when warm. Got same codes. Drove it to work and Check Engine light turned off! Codes also disappeared...??? Anyway, took it to dealer tonight and got loaner as it still lurches around when starting cold. Anyway, it definitely starts better when weather is warmer vs. cold. I have 30K on it. SA said probably bad injectors. Will find out tomorrow. Could it just be software? These engines are finicky. Have JB4 installed but hardly ever use it and have it off most of the time due to needing to warm it up first. Did not have it on while all this was happening and made sure it was off at dealer. Will report back asap.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by groundeffect View Post
Thanks DSX! Always appreciate your expertise on this forum.I too have always been old school about engine warming, and mntx in general.
I am, however, a little confused by your "Radiators do NOT cool the coolant!" comment. Do you mean they only cool the water content of the fluid?
Can you elaborate on that a bit more?
Thanks!
G.E.
It was a bit of hyperbole. I'll back up a bit. As you know the coolant itself does not actually cool anything. What it is is a medium for transporting excess heat from where you don't want it (the engine) to where you can dump off the heat (the radiator). There are different "coolants" used by your engine when you define a coolant as I did. For instance the engine oil is a very efficient coolant, the air blowing over the engine removes heat, and inside the exhaust valves is sodium which liquifies at high temps and transports heat from the face of the valve to the valve seat and the stem.

Engineers would love to make an all ceramic engine that runs at 600F or even higher. It would be much more efficient; pollution would be reduced and mpg would take a big bump upwards. But that's not going to happen anytime in the near future. They instead have settled on 195 to 200F as the optimum average engine temperature to accomplish what they must and still not cook the paint off the hood or melt seals, belts and hoses.

So...the coolant leaves the engine around 197F and goes to the radiator where sufficient heat is removed to allow the engine to stay in the 197 vicinity. The radiator could really cool the coolant down to near ambient air temp but that would be too cool for the engine and result in the engine temperature running way too low. People who have removed the thermostat have experienced this first hand. No heat from the heater!

When I said the radiator doesn't "cool" the coolant I was exxagerating. What it does is reduce the coolant's temperature only enough to ensure that the engine temperature stays in the designed range. We have smart thermostats and smart electric water pumps controlled by smart software that ensure the radiator does as little or as much as it has to.
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  #50  
Old 01-29-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by laser View Post
wow ... What an incredible detail ..... Thanks for giving us this narrative of what happens on startup and why we should take it easy til appropriate operating temperature is achieved in warm or cold climates!
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Originally Posted by nordic_kat View Post
hey dsx, thank you much for the detailed diagnostic.
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Originally Posted by vanos4:12pm View Post
great post to read thru and especially the data gathered by dsx. Very cool!
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thanks, dsx!
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thanks dsx! Always appreciate your expertise on this forum.i too have always been old school about engine warming, and mntx in general.
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