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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 01-30-2013, 02:19 PM
StaticJ StaticJ is offline
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JB4 Reliability , knock question.

Hello Bimmerfest,

I'm the proud new owner of an '09 335 E92. I'm relatively new to tuning, but am considering a JB4. I've taken my previous BMWs to Dinan for modding, but it seems that the JB4 is reliable, and frankly provides a lot more bang for the buck. My general understanding is that the JB4 does indeed do a lot more than just up the boost and there's adequate testing of the fuel maps and no one's blown up and engine/turbos just running Map 1 of the JB4. The crux of the technical complaints against the JB4 seem to centered around the reliance of stock knock prevention, with BMS folk and their constituents claiming that this is completely sufficient, others saying it's crazy to rely on stock fail-safes for a modded car. I can see how this would generally be true and may have been more necessary in the past, but if BMW's current knock prevention is that robust it's not a terrible idea to rely on it.

I merely have a rudimentary understanding of what's going on here--seeking the input of those wiser than me.

Thanks,
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  #2  
Old 01-30-2013, 03:22 PM
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Can't provide a technical explanation of how the electronics in the JB4 actually interface with the BMW anti knock system other than it works because there is no knock, at least no audible knock. Logs show the ignition timing lead being reduced under certain conditions accomplishing this. The system might be doing other things like dumping boost but I don't know what they are.

EDIT Should have included the important part about the fail safe system in the newest JB4 version "G5/ISO" DUH:

If a knock situation arises that is not instantly managed by the JB4 it goes into safety mode automatically switching to the stock boost Map 4. The system tells you this is happening by flashing the check engine light. Knock is several flashes & a single flash is overboost. To go back to any of the performance Maps once this has happened you need to restart the car which resets the fail safe system.

Knock is the noise heard when the intake charge explodes (detonation) instead of burning in a normal wave front. The high pressure from the explosion is hammering the piston on its way up the cylinder ringing it like a bell. If its serious it will trash the piston assembly.

With pre computer driven ignition systems we use to manually modify the distributors advance curve (static lead, weight & spring tension & total advance allowed) to accomplish this based on the octane of the fuel available with trial & error. Generally a lot of error before we got it right.
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Last edited by bear-avhistory; 01-30-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-30-2013, 03:30 PM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is online now
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As a fan of Dinan and owner. If I trusted myself around the cars internals I'd do JB4. I've read enough from the people here, and elsewhere + with the customer service it seems perfectly fine.

I think CALWATERBOY posted a thread with an engine that had a jb4+ meth and was pushed very hard and they opened it up and it looked almost brand new.

Last edited by SuperTerp; 01-30-2013 at 08:09 PM.
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  #4  
Old 01-30-2013, 06:58 PM
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08 335Ci 08 335Ci is offline
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I only use a quality 93 octane fuel and have had no preignition even on map 2. Yes you can run map 2 with stock downpipes.

Real place to ask your question is the N54 forum.
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  #5  
Old 01-30-2013, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaticJ View Post
Hello Bimmerfest,

I'm the proud new owner of an '09 335 E92. I'm relatively new to tuning, but am considering a JB4. I've taken my previous BMWs to Dinan for modding, but it seems that the JB4 is reliable, and frankly provides a lot more bang for the buck. My general understanding is that the JB4 does indeed do a lot more than just up the boost and there's adequate testing of the fuel maps and no one's blown up and engine/turbos just running Map 1 of the JB4. The crux of the technical complaints against the JB4 seem to centered around the reliance of stock knock prevention, with BMS folk and their constituents claiming that this is completely sufficient, others saying it's crazy to rely on stock fail-safes for a modded car. I can see how this would generally be true and may have been more necessary in the past, but if BMW's current knock prevention is that robust it's not a terrible idea to rely on it.

I merely have a rudimentary understanding of what's going on here--seeking the input of those wiser than me.

You must immediately and without delay [CLICK HERE]

Thus, you are transported to a golden nexus o'JB4 info....an Internet oasis, if you will.

Purchase sunblock.
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  #6  
Old 01-31-2013, 04:31 PM
StaticJ StaticJ is offline
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Thanks everybody, especially CALWATERBOY, I appreciate it. SPF 70 applied.
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  #7  
Old 02-02-2013, 04:28 PM
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thanks everybody, especially calwaterboy, i appreciate it. Spf 70 applied.

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  #8  
Old 02-02-2013, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 08 335Ci View Post
I only use a quality 93 octane fuel and have had no preignition even on map 2. Yes you can run map 2 with stock downpipes.

Real place to ask your question is the N54 forum.
Its possible to run Map 2 on stock downpipes in a 335i but the developer of the product recommends against it. Maps 1 & 5 are the best maps for stock DP's unless you have a 335is which has a different timing curve & can run Map 2 with 93 or better octane.

Best advice to give a new guy is to follow the manufactures recommendations till he can generate some logs to send into Terry. If some test runs on Map 2 show good logs then you are good to go. That being said lots of times the system is just pulling timing & losing power to accommodate Map 2 which will show up in the logs.
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2014 BMW 435M-Sport
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  #9  
Old 02-02-2013, 07:24 PM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is online now
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
Its possible to run Map 2 on stock downpipes in a 335i but the developer of the product recommends against it. Maps 1 & 5 are the best maps for stock DP's unless you have a 335is which has a different timing curve & can run Map 2 with 93 or b better octane.

Best advice to give a new guy is to follow the manufactures recommendations till he can generate some logs to send into Terry. If some test runs on Map 2 show good logs then you are good to go. That being said lots of times the system is just pulling timing & losing power to accommodate Map 2 which will show up in the logs.
Yeah I watched a video of a guy on youtube running map2 with no other mods and it actually looks slower than the other maps.

Getting ready to order a cobb AP to overwrite my Dinan

Stage 1 is fine but now I just want to see what more it can do

Last edited by SuperTerp; 02-02-2013 at 07:28 PM.
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  #10  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:32 PM
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08 335Ci 08 335Ci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
Its possible to run Map 2 on stock downpipes in a 335i but the developer of the product recommends against it. Maps 1 & 5 are the best maps for stock DP's unless you have a 335is which has a different timing curve & can run Map 2 with 93 or better octane.

Best advice to give a new guy is to follow the manufactures recommendations till he can generate some logs to send into Terry. If some test runs on Map 2 show good logs then you are good to go. That being said lots of times the system is just pulling timing & losing power to accommodate Map 2 which will show up in the logs.
The only thing the larger downpipes will do is allow the turbos to spool up faster.

Map 1 allows 13.5 psi boost, Map 2: 14.5, Map 5: 11 - 16 psi. boost. The only 2 maps I wouldn't advise playing with without knowledge and advice are Maps 6 (custom) and 7 (race).

When on the interstate, Map 5 gives me the best mpg with an acceptable fun factor. I've also seen a high of 15 psi in Map 5. Map 1 is a good every day driver mode and Map 2 seems to really make the bottom end come alive .... and is fun in the point and squirt twisties ... with a corresponding drop in mpg.

I'm pretty sure the description after Map 2 should read "For maximum performance straight thru downpipes and 93 octane min. fuel are required." Actually, we all have downpipes.
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  #11  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:02 AM
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From BMS Map listing:
Map 0: Stock bypass. This is the only map you may use the OBDII diagnostic port with. Set to map 0 before dropping off for service, using a BT, etc.
Map 1: 13psi (suggested for most stock applications)
Map 2: 14.5psi (suggested for those with downpipes and 93 octane)
Map 3: Progressive meth mapping with flow sensor failsafe. See guide to enable. Meth use isn't supported/suggested without a flow sensor and map 3.
Map 4: Stock map w/ CAN active. Allows full logging and in dash gauges on the stock mapping.
Map 5: Autotuning map. Boost ranges between 12-17psi based on your cars octane, conditions, and modifications. Fully E85 compatible. If using E85 we suggest around 30-40%.
Map 6: User defined boost map.
Map 7: Race gas map. 16.5psi on G4 board, 18psi on G5 board. Requires straight 100-104+ RM2 octane racing fuel.
Map 8: Economy / Non-Turbo map. Triggers a 3100 "reduced power mode" code while active. After switching back to a normal map you will need to restart the car for the code to clear.

Faster spool is only part of the benifit. With no changes other then adding downpipes my WHP would increase to about 395 from the current 375. Bad news is I would not pass state emissions testing & its a PITA to swap the pipes out every year. There is talk of going to a 3 year test cycle & if they do I would run a set of BMS pipes.

Its not just about raw maximum boost number its also the ignition advance curve, the boost curve & boost taper at high RPM. Without "downpipes", the accepted term for both performance catted & non-catted aftermarket downpipes, you can have power reduction issues on Map 2. Map 5 is the best power alternative to Map 1 for cars with factory downpipes & high octane fuel or an E85 mix.

Map 2 can work for some cars without downpipes. I originally tested it on the G4 board & Terry approved it for use with the 335is & 93+ octane before he wrote the the IS specific 93 octane+ Map 6 for both the G4 & G5 boards. At the time I was running 95/96 octane & eventually dropped it back to 93 during testing. As a matter of SOP I run 95 octane fuel all the time. The logic behind the 335is's usage was that the slower factory advance curve in the IS would allow additional boost with good gas. As part of the additional factory boost package in the IS models they reduced the advance curve to keep the car out of detonation.

People can do what they want with their own cars but IMHO it's a very bad plan for a new user that might have trouble reading a log to be going against Terry's recommendations because a post on the internet that said its OK. The only way you can be sure you are not screwing something up is by reading & interpreting the logs.
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2014 BMW 435M-Sport
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2009 Ford Expedition 4X4 EL - 2009 V-Star
2003 Nissan Xterra 4X4 - 1998 Ford Ranger 4X4 Splash
FFR Cobra Mk-IV work in progress

Last edited by bear-avhistory; 02-03-2013 at 01:13 AM.
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  #12  
Old 02-03-2013, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
People can do what they want with their own cars but IMHO it's a very bad plan for a new user that might have trouble reading a log to be going against Terry's recommendations because a post on the internet that said its OK. The only way you can be sure you are not screwing something up is by reading & interpreting the logs.

Yeppur! If you're gonna be Spiderman, you gotta assume responsibility.

That means education before action - one can easily screw up Map 6 if not skilled - that is not a place to challenge the unknown.

But I appreciate that it's there - JB4's a modder's delight, from quality pre-defined maps to the ability to fully customize the ride with detailed analysis software. One can go deeper, but very few need to.
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  #13  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:08 AM
daytrader daytrader is offline
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Yeah I watched a video of a guy on youtube running map2 with no other mods and it actually looks slower than the other maps.

Getting ready to order a cobb AP to overwrite my Dinan

Stage 1 is fine but now I just want to see what more it can do
As a better idea, I think you can have BMW download original sw for about $500 and then go to a Cobb flash system... But you're going to miss the abuse!
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:18 AM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is online now
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As a better idea, I think you can have BMW download original sw for about $500 and then go to a Cobb flash system... But you're going to miss the abuse!
So I need to remove the dinan before hand? Can't just overwrite it? Or could I just flash the stock map via the cobb ap and than do the install ?
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:34 AM
daytrader daytrader is offline
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So I need to remove the dinan before hand? Can't just overwrite it? Or could I just flash the stock map via the cobb ap and than do the install ?
Not sure, others will chime in, but I think on initial install the Cobb copies whatever the current sw is installed. Then works off the assumtion that it's stock OEM software(?).
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:45 AM
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So I need to remove the dinan before hand? Can't just overwrite it? Or could I just flash the stock map via the cobb ap and than do the install ?
Good question. I believe, WAG, that with Dinan your stock maps are gone so there is nothing to copy but the Dinan flash. I would contact COBB as it must have come up before.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:46 AM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is online now
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
Good question. I believe, WAG, that with Dinan your stock maps are gone so there is nothing to copy but the Dinan flash. I would contact COBB as it must have come up before.
lol right after I wrote the question I went and emailed their tech support.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:52 AM
daytrader daytrader is offline
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lol right after I wrote the question I went and emailed their tech support.
Keep us informed of the answers, as the idea has crossed like minds.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:40 AM
daytrader daytrader is offline
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[QUOTE=daytrader;7356835]

Also, if I remember correctly, my Dinan install shop said he could re-install the original BMW sw from his shop, I assume he means from Dinan's main frame over a T line.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
Good question. I believe, WAG, that with Dinan your stock maps are gone so there is nothing to copy but the Dinan flash. I would contact COBB as it must have come up before.

OK, that sucks.

Good for Dinan though - locks you in.

However, misplace, run over, winter static zap, or maybe just drop that Cobb unit on cement and your factory flash is gone baby, gone.
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  #21  
Old 02-04-2013, 10:53 AM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is online now
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Cobb support is very quick

Quote:
Dear XXXX

We typically recommend flashing the car back to stock prior to the Accessport install to ensure no compatibility issues. With that being said, a lot of customers have successfully overwritten the Dinan tune without issue. The Dinan tune is encrypted so it will not be able to be saved and will simply be overwritten.

Please let me know if there is anything else I can help you with.

Thank you,
I followed up asking if using the AP stock flash would have the same effect as taking it to the dealer before putting one of their maps on [haven't heard back].

Last edited by SuperTerp; 02-04-2013 at 10:54 AM.
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