January 2013 segment sales numbers

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

You care.

I respect that. I totally do.

But the other 98% of the American population does not care in the slightest about performance. I'm sorry. Look at the configurations. Look at what's selling. Look at 3 Series drivers you see on the streets. That shouldn't surprise you. That's just hard-fact. Instead of wishing for the 3 Series to become something it will never be, embrace the 1 Series or find another brand. Being your crying towel is getting tiresome.

BJ

A lot more people then you think actually do care. I want a BMW not a Cadillac but the irony of it is that the Cadillac offers what I want in a BMW and BMW does not. By your logic the past 3 Series would have never succeed in the US.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

It's all about luxury, comfort, and technology now. If BMW's customers wanted a reincarnated E46, they'd have given us one.

BJ

This. I think I'm going trust BMWs millions dollars of research and segment leading sales (one month in 2013 thus far withstanding) over opinions of random posters in a bimmer forum. Yes, is there a portion of BMW's buyers which are enthusiasts? Absolutely - its probably greater than the 2% BJ claims, but it certainly is NOT the majority. If it were, then we would have a car much closer to the E46 rather than the current day F30. For BMW, its all about the $$. They built and designed their bread and butter 3 series to maximize their sales. It's worked for the last 10+ years overwhelmingly well. Now we have 1 month of data showing a kink in the armor ... let's see if this is a trend or an anomaly. I tend to think BMW knows its customer base. 2012 was its best year ever.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Cadillac's are bought and driven by 70 year old men.

Very few ATS sales are going to so-called "performance enthusiasts". Instead, they're being bought by "fixed income retirees" who like the cheap CTS they've been presented with. RWD is just fine in Florida, the smaller cabins are okay for the 4PM early bird special crowd.

This is the Honda Element redux. Honda builds a car for beach-going Gen X'ers straight out of college, turns out its a cheap, large car that's perfect for the irritable bowel set and becomes grandma's favorite wheelchair mover.

BJ

And this is based on what?
Do you have any statistics as to who is buying the ATS?

CA

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I'm in Bergen County. Where are you?

I'd like to invite you up here for coffee. We'll get two lawn chairs, hang out on Saddle River Road, eventually mosey over to Route 4, talk BMW's. You'll see no less than 50 3 Series cars in a few hours. We'll bring some graph paper and pencil and mark up all the cars we see, how they are configured, what their drivers look like.

Or, I can spare you the effort and tell you right now:

The average driver you will see is a 50 year old female driving a three-year-old 328i in base trim with a $349 lease payment and a hair appointment.

BJ

You are right but the competition is tougher than ever before and what is my incentive then for picking the 3 over the IS, A4 or C class? In the past it was the "sporty" feeling but not anymore. Does it look better than the A4 or the C? Not really. Tech or Luxury? Nope. Price? Nope. Then what?

Originally Posted by kobechrome

This. I think I'm going trust BMWs millions dollars of research and segment leading sales (one month in 2013 thus far withstanding) over opinions of random posters in a bimmer forum. Yes, is there a portion of BMW's buyers which are enthusiasts? Absolutely - its probably greater than the 2% BJ claims, but it certainly is NOT the majority. If it were, then we would have a car much closer to the E46 rather than the current day F30. For BMW, its all about the $$. They built and designed their bread and butter 3 series to maximize their sales. It's worked for the last 10+ years overwhelmingly well. Now we have 1 month of data showing a kink in the armor ... let's see if this is a trend or an anomaly. I tend to think BMW knows its customer base. 2012 was its best year ever.

Thanks to the fantastic deals on the E90s.

Originally Posted by kobechrome

This. I think I'm going trust BMWs millions dollars of research and segment leading sales (one month in 2013 thus far withstanding) over opinions of random posters in a bimmer forum. Yes, is there a portion of BMW's buyers which are enthusiasts? Absolutely - its probably greater than the 2% BJ claims, but it certainly is NOT the majority. If it were, then we would have a car much closer to the E46 rather than the current day F30. For BMW, its all about the $$. They built and designed their bread and butter 3 series to maximize their sales. It's worked for the last 10+ years overwhelmingly well. Now we have 1 month of data showing a kink in the armor ... let's see if this is a trend or an anomaly. I tend to think BMW knows its customer base. 2012 was its best year ever.

2012 was also the best year for Audi which tells us that the entire segment is growing. I am not exactly sure what segment the buyers are moving over from, It does not seem to be the Accord/Camry segment as their sales have been very strong as well.

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

Thanks to the fantastic deals on the E90s.

Perhaps so. I don't have the exact numbers by body style. If someone has those, would be interesting to see. Even if that were the case, then this proves the E90 (more luxurious and less an enthusiasts' car than the E46) was still massively successful.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

2012 was also the best year for Audi which tells us that the entire segment is growing. I am not exactly sure what segment the buyers are moving over from, It does not seem to be the Accord/Camry segment as their sales have been very strong as well.

Could just be that more people are buying cars because there are more people. My only point is that IF BMW really screwed up in moving more towards luxury, then numbers would show it. So far it hasn't (except for Jan). BTW - I am not for BMW doing this. I loved my E46 and E90 and feel that my current F30 is definitely looser and softer - but at the end of the day, after test driving a number of cars, is still my first choice.

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

You are right but the competition is tougher than ever before and what is my incentive then for picking the 3 over the IS, A4 or C class? In the past it was the "sporty" feeling but not anymore. Does it look better than the A4 or the C? Not really. Tech or Luxury? Nope. Price? Nope. Then what?

"It's a BMW", that's what, and that's it It doesn't say much, but it says it all. A lot of people think that way about many products. Even for more mass market name brands. "It's a Toyota" may not have much appeal to folks on this board, but for millions of people it is a powerful statement evoking many things.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

No. One. Cares. About. Performance. In. The. Big. Picture.

True. They won't even try to explore the performance of the car. But the fact that it is there is very important, in an indirect way. They are not just driving just any turd on wheels. "It's a BMW."

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I never understood why BMW takes 2 years to introduce all of the body styles of the new model.

CA

Historically, it has been one model year between the Sedan and Coupe/Convertible introductions. This model year has been progressively extended from an average calendar year to 18 months (E90 to E92) to about 20-24 months (F30 to F32) and 3 model years.

The F30 to F32 extra delay most probably is because the change from 3- to 4-Series.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

"It's a BMW", that's what, and that's it It doesn't say much, but it says it all. A lot of people think that way about many products. Even for more mass market name brands. "It's a Toyota" may not have much appeal to folks on this board, but for millions of people it is a powerful statement evoking many things.

But so is MB and Audi and Cadillac and Lexus. They all have their prestige and history. BMW's selling point was its sporty DNA, yes or no? Just look what happened to Acura.

Originally Posted by kobechrome

Could just be that more people are buying cars because there are more people. My only point is that IF BMW really screwed up in moving more towards luxury, then numbers would show it. So far it hasn't (except for Jan). BTW - I am not for BMW doing this. I loved my E46 and E90 and feel that my current F30 is definitely looser and softer - but at the end of the day, after test driving a number of cars, is still my first choice.

Fair enough. I hope when I am purchasing my next car I will say the same.

The most remarkable detail of this C-Class sales beat up against the 3-Series is that fundamentally this C-Class is the same as the 2007 C-Class. In other words, the facelifted C-Class sells more than the new 3-Series. By a quite lot.

To me, the only explanation is pricing. And like I said before, this 3-Series was priced out of the segment too soon, too quick and without real substance to this price increase.

Welcome 320i.

Here in the Chicago Metro area the sales numbers comes as no surprise. You'd be hard press to see one F30 for every twenty C Class. From my perspective, first time buyers looking to get into an imported entry level luxury model will find the 3ER Base model bland and over valued and the Lines, too expensive. Regarding the CLA, starting out at 29K, that's going to be a major problem for BMW.

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

But so is MB and Audi and Cadillac and Lexus. They all have their prestige and history. BMW's selling point was its sporty DNA, yes or no? Just look what happened to Acura.

And to Lexus. Both Acura and Lexus (I have owned both) lost the qualities that built the brands and sales have suffered. It has only been the last couple of years that BMW has outsold Lexus which was the best selling "Luxury" brand for years.

CA

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

It's all about luxury, comfort, and technology now. If BMW's customers wanted a reincarnated E46, they'd have given us one.

BJ

ZHP envy, denial stage

Originally Posted by Technic

The most remarkable detail of this C-Class sales beat up against the 3-Series is that fundamentally this C-Class is the same as the 2007 C-Class. In other words, the facelifted C-Class sells more than the new 3-Series. By a quite lot.

To me, the only explanation is pricing. And like I said before, this 3-Series was priced out of the segment too soon, too quick and without real substance to this price increase.

Welcome 320i.

I think there is one more explanation : number of cylinders. Many people still care and understand.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Bimmer App

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

But so is MB and Audi and Cadillac and Lexus. They all have their prestige and history. BMW's selling point was its sporty DNA, yes or no? Just look what happened to Acura.

Yes to everything you say. But the average buyer just needs to know it is considered sporty. And the car is still very sporty, just not as much as before. It seems sporty enough that most buyers won't notice it is slightly less so. There seems to be enough there to continue the mystique.

First BJ claimed the ATS was an utter failure, after seeing it selling more than the A4, and likely more than the G37 if only sedans are counted. So basically as far as sedans, the ATS was the third, behind the C and F30 last month.

Then BJ insists only 70 year olds drive ATS, when over at the Caddy sites it is all 20 to 40 year olds reporting their first Caddy experiences with the new ATS.

I was then reminded that BJ was very happy BMW will release the 320i, because according to him it will be a perfect car for his 70 year old mother.

Now I am no therapist, but I have a feeling someone in that profession will have a good theory about what BJ is going through. It can be summed up with one word, or two.

Originally Posted by 55

I think there is one more explanation : number of cylinders. Many people still care and understand.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Bimmer App

Well the refresh of the C saw the intro of the base turbo 4 which is handily outclassed by the 328.

So if you are correct MB buyers are more accepting of a lower cylinder count than BMW buyers.

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

A lot more people then you think actually do care. I want a BMW not a Cadillac but the irony of it is that the Cadillac offers what I want in a BMW and BMW does not. By your logic the past 3 Series would have never succeed in the US.

Huh?

The E90 started it all with larger size, more weight, more comfort. The reason the E90 was the best-selling car in BMW's history is because, for the first time, BMW had shed some of the bare-bones performance elements and focused on the luxury.

If you want an ATS, go buy one. It's a free country. If you want an E46, go find one. There are thousands, literally, for sale right now.

BJ

Originally Posted by captainaudio

And this is based on what?
Do you have any statistics as to who is buying the ATS?

CA

No. Just common sense.

I've only seen a single ATS and it was on display in a local outlet mall. Another poster a few weeks ago saw an ATS at a Cadillac dealership. In both instances, the people sitting in the car and buzzing about the car were older males, not the sporty-yuppie-types portrayed in the snazzy ATS commercial campaign (which appears to have been ditched because I haven't seen a spot since November).

BJ

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

You are right but the competition is tougher than ever before and what is my incentive then for picking the 3 over the IS, A4 or C class? In the past it was the "sporty" feeling but not anymore. Does it look better than the A4 or the C? Not really. Tech or Luxury? Nope. Price? Nope. Then what?

Here's the irony:

Because of the performance enthusiast population pumping the car up and buying lots of M3's, those who are just in it for the badge get the bonus of being cloaked in a shroud of trendy sportiness.

An Audi says "graduated from a Passat, can't afford a luxury car".

A Mercedes says "this guy has money, is on the way up".

A BMW says "this guy has money, is on the way up, and he's kicking ass to get there".

BMW has been portrayed in TV shows, movies, rock songs, hip-hop songs for decades as the car to own for just this reason. It's the cool-man's luxury car. Not some stuffy soft thing like a Mercedes, not some rebadged VW like an Audi. Most who buy a BMW are not in it for the quality or the ride characteristics. They're in it for how it makes them look.

BJ

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

But so is MB and Audi and Cadillac and Lexus. They all have their prestige and history. BMW's selling point was its sporty DNA, yes or no? Just look what happened to Acura.

Acura was never anything. It was a step-up Honda and a practical BMW, nothing more. Acura said "this man has money but is smart with his money", they'd give you a car that was size and optioned like a 5 Series for 3 Series money.

Audi, Cadillac, and Lexus have no "prestige and history". They are all re-badged Jetta's, Lacrosse's, and Camry's. Anyone who can afford a BMW knows this.

The sporty DNA doesn't go away simply because the car is no longer sporty. BMW has 20 years before they can deteriorate the brand that badly, and just because they're messing with the Sedan and making it more stately doesn't mean that Mr. & Mrs. Camry don't get all hot and bothered over the gorgeous Roadster or the stunning 4 Coupe. The brand equity trickles down to all the models. The 3 doesn't stand on its own.

BJ