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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #151  
Old 02-06-2013, 06:53 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Ok then

Let's move from the f10 to the f30.

Is there a weight gain with similar optioned cars from e90 to f30?
Very minimal, however I was referring to the weight of the engines themselves. Pound for pound IIRC the N52 weights less or the same as the N20. You can't compare the F30 to E90 because many other factors can alter the weight. The F10 has not changed from 2011 to 2012 outside of the engine. Same chassis and transmission therefore give all the options are the same the weight difference would be in the engines, correct?
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  #152  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:13 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Completely false. While it is much harder and more expensive to extract power out of NA engine, it is still possible. There is a dyno sheet proving those gains, why would they make it up? The tune has been out for years and works fantastic! They claim 15 hp without any bolt-ons, it feels like it adds more than that. European tuners can extract much more power of the Euro spec N52 as well. There are plenty of dyno sheets showing gains from this tune. I know this from personal experience.
Are you kidding? I have seen numerous dyno sheets on all sorts of engines and there are so many variables that it's easy to show the best case scenario. A lot depends on the particular dynamometer and factors like ambient temperature. Tuners like to show HP under optimal conditions. Also, it's very likely the N52 makes more than 230 hp as BMW tends to be conservative in these ratings.
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  #153  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:17 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Very minimal, however I was referring to the weight of the engines themselves. Pound for pound IIRC the N52 weights less or the same as the N20. You can't compare the F30 to E90 because many other factors can alter the weight. The F10 has not changed from 2011 to 2012 outside of the engine. Same chassis and transmission therefore give all the options are the same the weight difference would be in the engines, correct?
This may or may not be true but unless you can quote actual numbers for the N20 drivetrain vs the N52, it's all speculation.
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  #154  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:25 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Very minimal, however I was referring to the weight of the engines themselves. Pound for pound IIRC the N52 weights less or the same as the N20. You can't compare the F30 to E90 because many other factors can alter the weight. The F10 has not changed from 2011 to 2012 outside of the engine. Same chassis and transmission therefore give all the options are the same the weight difference would be in the engines, correct?
Considering the stiffer chassis, more equipment, the fact that weight is either the same or down on the f30 is great. If that means 20lbs due to the n20 being heavier, its worth it. Another thing to consider is engine placement, pop the hood on an n20, see how far back the engine is set...yeah that is a very good thing.
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  #155  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:29 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Completely false. While it is much harder and more expensive to extract power out of NA engine, it is still possible. There is a dyno sheet proving those gains, why would they make it up? The tune has been out for years and works fantastic! They claim 15 hp without any bolt-ons, it feels like it adds more than that. European tuners can extract much more power of the Euro spec N52 as well. There are plenty of dyno sheets showing gains from this tune. I know this from personal experience.
From years of tuning cars, its suspect. AFe for example has a dyno claiming 10+whp from an intake. No person has shown the same gains on the dyno.

It sucks being a pessimist but as noted, tuners have a horse in the race to make the numbers work for them.

Fact is, its very hard to get gains from an ecu tune from an average NA engine. Years of 20-30hp claims for the s52 results in 2-4-6whp in reality.
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E36/7: Dinan/RMS stage 2+ blower@13lbs of BOOST! 18" BBS LM's, too much more to list
F30: ForgeStar F14 19's summer-OZ Superleggera 17's winter/Rogue Catback/Integral Audio/AFE intake scoop/BMS stage 1
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  #156  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:30 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Are you kidding? I have seen numerous dyno sheets on all sorts of engines and there are so many variables that it's easy to show the best case scenario. A lot depends on the particular dynamometer and factors like ambient temperature. Tuners like to show HP under optimal conditions. Also, it's very likely the N52 makes more than 230 hp as BMW tends to be conservative in these ratings.
Do you have the AA tune installed on your car? Have you driven one with it? I do, and the difference feels like it is much greater than the 15 hp they claim.
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  #157  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:34 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
From years of tuning cars, its suspect. AFe for example has a dyno claiming 10+whp from an intake. No person has shown the same gains on the dyno.

It sucks being a pessimist but as noted, tuners have a horse in the race to make the numbers work for them.

Fact is, its very hard to get gains from an ecu tune from an average NA engine. Years of 20-30hp claims for the s52 results in 2-4-6whp in reality.
This is not true at all. If you don't want to believe the Dyno sheets they I don't know what to tell you. I have the AA tune on my car and the power increase is very perceptible.
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  #158  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:34 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Do you have the AA tune installed on your car? Have you driven one with it? I do, and the difference feels like it is much greater than the 15 hp they claim.
Feel and actuality are too different things.

It's simple, I saw your link with AAs dyno and claims of 30whp from tune and exhaust.

Show me an individual with a dyno that mirrors those results.

If they align I will admit to being wrong.

On my BMS dyno I have now seen 2-3 private dynes that mirror or improve the results shown by the tuner, even a person getting the same sub 5 second 0-60 as claimed.
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F30: ForgeStar F14 19's summer-OZ Superleggera 17's winter/Rogue Catback/Integral Audio/AFE intake scoop/BMS stage 1
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  #159  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:36 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Considering the stiffer chassis, more equipment, the fact that weight is either the same or down on the f30 is great. If that means 20lbs due to the n20 being heavier, its worth it. Another thing to consider is engine placement, pop the hood on an n20, see how far back the engine is set...yeah that is a very good thing.
Sure, the engine placement is optimal on the F30 but nobody is going to tell me the engine itself weights less. I highly doubt that.
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  #160  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:36 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
This is not true at all. If you don't want to believe the Dyno sheets they I don't know what to tell you. I have the AA tune on my car and the power increase is very perceptible.
It's very true as time and time again people like you see the claims and feel the butt dyno but when they dyno they are disappointed.

I have had NA tunes on other cars, had a Stillen tune on my 300zx. The higher redline and smoother revving made it feel faster and feel like the 18whp claim. On the dyno it was 4-5whp.
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E36/7: Dinan/RMS stage 2+ blower@13lbs of BOOST! 18" BBS LM's, too much more to list
F30: ForgeStar F14 19's summer-OZ Superleggera 17's winter/Rogue Catback/Integral Audio/AFE intake scoop/BMS stage 1
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  #161  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:38 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Sure, the engine placement is optimal on the F30 but nobody is going to tell me the engine itself weights less. I highly doubt that.
It might not, not with the intercooler and piping. But it still would be nice to see the actual numbers.
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E36/7: Dinan/RMS stage 2+ blower@13lbs of BOOST! 18" BBS LM's, too much more to list
F30: ForgeStar F14 19's summer-OZ Superleggera 17's winter/Rogue Catback/Integral Audio/AFE intake scoop/BMS stage 1
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  #162  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:39 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Feel and actuality are too different things.

It's simple, I saw your link with AAs dyno and claims of 30whp from tune and exhaust.

Show me an individual with a dyno that mirrors those results.

If they align I will admit to being wrong.

On my BMS dyno I have now seen 2-3 private dynes that mirror or improve the results shown by the tuner, even a person getting the same sub 5 second 0-60 as claimed.
Automatic Xi model:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727141
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  #163  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:44 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
It's very true as time and time again people like you see the claims and feel the butt dyno but when they dyno they are disappointed.

I have had NA tunes on other cars, had a Stillen tune on my 300zx. The higher redline and smoother revving made it feel faster and feel like the 18whp claim. On the dyno it was 4-5whp.
A good friend of mine had a MKIII VR6 and we would switch up and run the 1/4 mile few times a day. The best run was 15.2, he later added a GIAC chip and ran 14.7.
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  #164  
Old 02-06-2013, 08:14 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
It might not, not with the intercooler and piping. But it still would be nice to see the actual numbers.
Seems like I found the numbers. I am not sure how accurate this is but the N52 is 22 lbs heavier than the N20. Not sure if this includes the cooling components or not.
"The all-aluminum N20 I-4 is about 22 lbs. (10 kg) lighter than the N52. Overall, the engine weighs 304 lbs. (138 kg)."
http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analys...ises-4-cyl-bar
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  #165  
Old 02-06-2013, 08:16 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
I cant see an accurate comparison because of the stage 3 manifold used which I am willing to bet is $$$. The first dyno was ecu and catback only.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
A good friend of mine had a MKIII VR6 and we would switch up and run the 1/4 mile few times a day. The best run was 15.2, he later added a GIAC chip and ran 14.7.
Not trying to be a dick here, but that does not equate to power gains, its not a direct correlation. See tunes like that commonly add 500 rpms to the limiter which often allows for skipping a costly shift in the 1/4 mile. I am not saying that na tunes are worthless as just moving the power band up is nice and does give seat of he pants results and can translate to being quicker. But it's not the same as making 30whp on the dyno with a tune and catback as claimed by AA.
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E36/7: Dinan/RMS stage 2+ blower@13lbs of BOOST! 18" BBS LM's, too much more to list
F30: ForgeStar F14 19's summer-OZ Superleggera 17's winter/Rogue Catback/Integral Audio/AFE intake scoop/BMS stage 1
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  #166  
Old 02-06-2013, 08:18 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Seems like I found the numbers. I am not sure how accurate this is but the N52 is 22 lbs heavier than the N20. Not sure if this includes the cooling components or not.
"The all-aluminum N20 I-4 is about 22 lbs. (10 kg) lighter than the N52. Overall, the engine weighs 304 lbs. (138 kg)."
http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analys...ises-4-cyl-bar
It should, the intercooler and piping is pretty integral to the turbo which is of course integrated into the exhaust manifold. All the n20 engineering pics show the intercooler attached.
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E36/7: Dinan/RMS stage 2+ blower@13lbs of BOOST! 18" BBS LM's, too much more to list
F30: ForgeStar F14 19's summer-OZ Superleggera 17's winter/Rogue Catback/Integral Audio/AFE intake scoop/BMS stage 1
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  #167  
Old 02-06-2013, 08:52 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I cant see an accurate comparison because of the stage 3 manifold used which I am willing to bet is $$$. The first dyno was ecu and catback only.



Not trying to be a dick here, but that does not equate to power gains, its not a direct correlation. See tunes like that commonly add 500 rpms to the limiter which often allows for skipping a costly shift in the 1/4 mile. I am not saying that na tunes are worthless as just moving the power band up is nice and does give seat of he pants results and can translate to being quicker. But it's not the same as making 30whp on the dyno with a tune and catback as claimed by AA.
AA claims 15hp/12trq on a stock N52 and their recent dyno demonstrates a 30 hp gain with the tune, exhaust and intake modifications. I happen to have the AA tune with bolt-ons on my vehicle and their claims are inline, if not a bit underrated. I don't know what to tell you. There is a clear power gain from this tune that is backed by a dyno sheet. You don't have to believe it but it is a FACT. Also, you can google European tunes that make a lot more power than that.
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  #168  
Old 02-06-2013, 02:12 PM
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Saintor Saintor is offline
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Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Yes, you are correct. But keep in mind that the V6 (and V8... and even the Aventador's V12 does cylinder deactivation this year the whole half shuts down making an inline-6!) still carry the weight penalty of the additional mass in the nose when compared to smaller displacement turbocharged engines.
Again, there is a gap between reality and facts. In addition the F10 528i reference above, the X3 2012 is no lighter than the 2011. A 412HP V8 5.0L has about the same weight than a 300HP N54 engine (444lbs compared to 430). A regular box 4WD F-150 5.0L is lighter than the same with a 3.5TT.
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