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BMW i3 / i8 / ActiveE
Are you excited about the upcoming BMW i3 or i8? Interested in learning more about the BMW ActiveE? This is the place for you!

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  #26  
Old 12-27-2012, 10:16 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
I don't think the details you're looking for exist. The complexity of calculating those details probably only exist at the manufacturers level and they're not inclined to give those out. I did find this article which I found interesting -

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/...ctric-car.html

Tim
(Sighs) I was afraid that was going to be the circumstance. Although the link gave me some more food for thought. Doing some further research resulted in a possible model (modern day scavenger hunt?):

1. Based on this URL ( http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/battery ), it appears the new battery specification for the Leaf is 24 kW.

2. On another part of the above URL ( http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electr...ro.section_nav ) different range scenarios are provided to give an opportunity for matching driving profile to range expectations. For this discussion, I will use the 2-cycle testing range of 73 miles/charge.

3. Taking 1. and dividing it by 2. (per the equation proposed in the URL you provided) would seem to yield .34 kWh/mile (24 kWh/73 miles). Extrapolating out over 100,000 miles would seem to result in total electricity consumption of 34,000 kWh (.34 kWh/mile)*(100,000 miles).

With a marginal cost (aka cost for the last kWh of electricity use) per kWh of $0.30/kWh, (if my model above is correct) the 100K mile operating cost is $10,200 (34,000 kWh * $0.30/kWh). I used $0.30/kWh to factor in what the rate would be given the additional electricity use for the electric car. For comparison, if Diesel fuel averages $5/gallon over the 100,000 mile period, and I manage to average 33 mpg for the 100,000 miles, I am looking at fuel costs of $15,151.

And then there is the matter of battery pack life. Lithium battery packs seem to have a charge-discharge cycle rating around 750 to 1,000 cycles. 750 seems to be the number for complete discharge before recharge, and 1,000 if the pack is charged around the 40% remaining threshold. 40% remaining would appear to translate into a range before recharge of 44 miles (73 mile range * .6). This provides an additional perspective on range anxiety - if you want a longer battery pack life, you don't want to be driving the battery pack to full discharge (or even 10% or 20% remaining). I doubt battery packs are cheap (one article ( http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10426331-54.html ) pegged the Volt's battery pack replacement parts cost at $8,000; but that is just the parts cost, what about labor?). Interestingly, Nissan is touting their 100,000 mile guarantee on the battery pack (96 months/100,000 miles). I wonder if BMW is going to be providing a 96 month/100,000 mile warranty on the i3's battery pack?

It seems the more I learn, the more questions I have.... Anyhows, thank you for providing the link to the Edmunds article.
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  #27  
Old 12-28-2012, 08:45 AM
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Great job breaking down the details, I'm impressed. While reading it occurred to me that another reason that manufactures are not likely to give out the details you're looking for is it would allow precises calculations to be done. If someone could do that they could peg the dollar value the EV is likely to cost over a gas version to plus or minus $500 (perhaps). In that case I think the true EV costs would well outshine the costs of a gas powered car and it would be hard for people to go EV. By not providing details the true costs is murky and it is easier for the feel good part of buying an EV to trump the 'possible' cost increases as they're not clear.

Hope my rambling makes sense. I'm only a cup of coffee deep, all the neurons aren't firing yet today

Tim
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  #28  
Old 12-28-2012, 09:26 AM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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It seems the real unknown for EV adoption is battery pack replacement cost. Tesla seems to be showing that long (~260 mile) range battery packs can be built. Prices should drop as volume increases, but there will be a battery pack replacement somewhere along the way. Everything else (brakes, tires, etc.) seems to be comparable between EVs and non-EV cars.

If BMW provides a 96 month/100,000 mile battery pack warranty similar to what Nissan is doing, EVs could become viable alternatives to the internal combustion engine power option. I suspect extended battery pack warranty will become a requirement for any manufacturer wanting to offer EVs. Given the requirement to boost CAFE ratings to 50+ mpg, EVs appear to be destined to be a significant part of the solution. I suspect part of the sales price of larger, non-EV cars will include a subsidy for the EV owners battery pack replacement.
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  #29  
Old 01-02-2013, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
Is anyone aware of a calculator that can be used to determine charging cost for the EVs?
It isn't possible to get exact numbers until you start charging the car at home. You can make a rough guess that will get you close.

EDIT: Ooops, you already figured this out for yourself.



Some cars specify kWh/mile. If you don't have that use the real range (not EPA) and battery pack capacity.

For example a Renault Zoe will go between 60 and 90 miles and has a 22kWh pack.

22kW/80miles = .275kWh / mile.

Take the number of kWh you need to put back into the pack and multiply by 1.1.

Rough estimate for a Zoe is .3025kWh/mile of electricity. We pay 0.1034/kWh.

.1034 * .3025 = 0.031 per mile.

For comparison, our Z4 costs about 0.22 per mile for fuel.
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  #30  
Old 01-02-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
It seems the real unknown for EV adoption is battery pack replacement cost.

Another option is to lease the pack. At the moment Renault is the only manufacturer offering this. Under the lease program Renault will replace the pack whenever it drops to 75% of the advertised 22kWh capacity.


With an i3, I'd prefer to lease the entire car and return the car before the end of the battery warranty. That way BMW FS would assume the risk of unexpected battery depreciation.
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  #31  
Old 01-03-2013, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by nsequitur View Post
what will the BMW i3 cost

"They" keep saying it will come out in 2013, so let's assume it's a 2014 model year, and that it comes out in 3Q 2013... that's still only 1.3 years from now, and still no indication of price? The i8 gets more price talk.

I'm really considering a Tesla, but it's as big as a 5-series (which we already have), and expensive (base model is $50K + 1.5 sunroof + 1.5 leather + 1.5 jumpseats)... AFTER a $7500 tax credit.

So for me at least, the i3 makes sense if it has the same tax credit ($7500), and a base price of $40K or less - the net has to be $35K or less or forget it (IMO). So I am scouring the web weekly to find out pricing information and finding nothing.

Is this typical so close to production?
i3 will be made in Liepzig, so would i3 be eligible for euro-delivery (and discounts)?
will i3 be eligible for the BMW CCA rebate?

PLEASE UPDATE THIS THREAD WITH ANY PRICING INFORMATION DIVULGED - I WILL DO THE SAME.



May be 35k to 50k or above.
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  #32  
Old 01-13-2013, 08:57 AM
cblandin cblandin is offline
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Given that my Volt stickered for $45k I cannot imagine a world where this BMW is less than that - ESP considering its lightweight construction. I would also assume BMW will follow its usual options model which could really drive the price up. Finally, the erev option will probably be a few grand too. Oh and those of us outside of California enjoy MUCH lower Electric rates. Here in Texas as an example I enjoy 7.7 cents per kilowatt hour rates. It will be interesting to see just how many folks opt for the Erev.
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  #33  
Old 01-13-2013, 03:30 PM
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Given that my Volt stickered for $45k I cannot imagine a world where this BMW is less than that - ESP considering its lightweight construction.
Yes and there is the problem.

Current EV market is something like this:


Renault Zoe 13,650 + 60/month for battery (not sold in US)
Renault Fluence 17,495 + 70/month for battery (not sold in US)
Nissan Leaf 24,995 / $27,700 (SV)
Coda $30,000
Vauxhall Ampera 29,995 / Chevy Volt $45,000
BMW 528i $47,800
Tesla Model S 40kWh $52,400 (UK price will be about the same + 20% VAT)

(There is the tiny overpriced Mitusbishi too)

I've driven the Fluence. Looked at the rest except for Coda and Zoe. (Zoe isn't out yet and Coda isn't worth looking at)


BMW has publicly said an i3 will cost less than a 5 series. They were talking about the US market. That means less than $47,800 top of sticker after govt incentives.

The Model S is in the same class as a 5 series. If a MINI Cooper was $46,000 and a 5 series was $52,000, would BMW sell very many MINIs?



Tesla is selling 100 cars a day. If the i3 really is $46,000 top of sticker BMW will be lucky to sell 100 in a year.
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Last edited by Andrew*Debbie; 01-13-2013 at 03:37 PM.
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  #34  
Old 02-07-2013, 06:33 PM
Jake C Jake C is offline
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In the same point thinking of an i3 and starting to figure out the rough costs to see if it would be beneficial or maybe just wait and entertain a 328d when they hit the US market.

Lots of great points in this thread. Thank you all.

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  #35  
Old 02-25-2013, 09:54 AM
Jake C Jake C is offline
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According to the Autocar UK article in the UK at least the i3 may cost close to 38,000 GBP or close the UK 330d. I wonder if it will fall close to the US 328d or equivalent? And I wonder if that is with or without the range extender option?

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  #36  
Old 02-26-2013, 07:17 AM
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38,000 should be before the UK plug in car grant. A 330d SE starts at 33,610. BMW has publicly said the US price would be below a 528i. Maybe not by much. BMW should release more information at the Geneva auto show next month.
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  #37  
Old 02-27-2013, 12:56 PM
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Current info is indeed around 40,000, or $52k US with the range extender adding about 4k.

First BMW i3 Electric Car Test Ride, 2.3 Gallon Range Extender Option To Cost About $4,000

Those numbers seem rather high given the supposed goal of 30k-50k units! Especially considering Toyota's difficulty moving a much smaller number of their promising electric, so far...


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  #38  
Old 02-28-2013, 02:02 AM
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40.000 not 40,000
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  #39  
Old 02-28-2013, 08:52 AM
Jake C Jake C is offline
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I don't think that UK or Euro prices translate to US prices. And based on the statement that it will be less than a 528i which starts around $47,800 and a 335i starting at around $43,150. Maybe the i3 would fall around $40,000 to $45,000?

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  #40  
Old 03-01-2013, 10:34 AM
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I don't think that UK or Euro prices translate to US prices.

- J

UK prices are "On the road" including 20% VAT and other fees. US prices are top of sticker and don't even include the destination charge.


Besides that cars are just more expensive here. Market segmentation???
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  #41  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quite possibly.

Cost and driving dynamics will be key I think.

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  #42  
Old 03-12-2013, 07:29 AM
nsequitur nsequitur is offline
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Geneva Auto Show indications

Getting so frustrated I called BMWUSA last week, not daring to hope for pricing, but at least to know WHEN pricing would be announced. i3 is supposed to be SOLD in 2013, that means BUILT in about 6 months, and still it is not even known how the cars will be sold (online vs. dealerships), where it will be built (I've seen Austria, and I've heard carbon fiber bodies made in NW USA, like Washington state or something), and of course price.

I'm seeing another report this month pegging the price at a whopping $55K:
http://www.auto-types.com/autonews/t...ctly-9909.html
I just hope that exchange rate calculation doesn't hold. The euro has dropped in recent months - will that mean a cheaper i3?

There's been some great posts in this thread comparing i3 to other alternatives. I'll reiterate what I view as the closest competitor: Tesla model "S". If BMW finally does announce the i3 price, and its peashooter really is almost the same cost as the $57K Tesla, I will immediately rush out and buy TSLA stock, because it is just a vastly superior product with better range, American made, has a massive iPad in it, has lots of 'car of the year' props, and has Consumer Reports cred. The choice between i3 and Tesla, at the same price point, is a no-brainer.

My wife needs a city-commuter car, and the tesla is just too big, which is why we are waiting for i3 pricing, but they need to get it in the mid-$40s to even have a fighting chance. Nissan leaf prices are going DOWN, now in the $20s: http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/14/n...massive-price/

So at $55K, i3 will cost about the same as TWO leafs?! C'mon Munich!
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  #43  
Old 03-12-2013, 08:59 AM
Jake C Jake C is offline
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Well the price may be higher because it comes with a gas powered loaner as well according to this article. . . http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/12/b...y-on-i-models/



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Last edited by tim330i; 03-12-2013 at 09:10 AM. Reason: fixed link
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  #44  
Old 03-19-2013, 06:34 AM
nsequitur nsequitur is offline
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The loaner car concept is also described in this edmunds article today:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2014...-concerns.html

More importantly, the article gives a better indication of price:
BMW already intends to give buyers the option of adding a gasoline generator to the i3 for about $4,000 on top of the car's estimated $42,000-$48,000 price tag. That engine, a 35-horsepower, two-cylinder power plant adapted from the company's C650 GT motor scooter, would more than double the vehicle's range.

$42-48K sounds a whole lot easier to swallow than Tesla-S pricing at $55. But it is still a large range given that I expected few options other than the range-extender. I'd hoped this would be an "all-in" model when it came to options. If I can stay at the $42K price, and get the $7500 credit, I'm very interested.
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  #45  
Old 03-19-2013, 11:48 AM
Jake C Jake C is offline
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Originally Posted by nsequitur View Post
The loaner car concept is also described in this edmunds article today:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2014...-concerns.html

More importantly, the article gives a better indication of price:
BMW already intends to give buyers the option of adding a gasoline generator to the i3 for about $4,000 on top of the car's estimated $42,000-$48,000 price tag. That engine, a 35-horsepower, two-cylinder power plant adapted from the company's C650 GT motor scooter, would more than double the vehicle's range.

$42-48K sounds a whole lot easier to swallow than Tesla-S pricing at $55. But it is still a large range given that I expected few options other than the range-extender. I'd hoped this would be an "all-in" model when it came to options. If I can stay at the $42K price, and get the $7500 credit, I'm very interested.
Good find. Thank you.

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  #46  
Old 03-28-2013, 10:55 AM
nsequitur nsequitur is offline
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A couple more reports today citing a 35K Euro price (which translates to approximately $45K), though its unknown if this is inclusive of tax credits. Also the articles don't cite any sources, so they could all be pointing to one report, which may itself be inaccurate. Maybe if the rumors are wrong BMW will finally step forward to clarify.

The other piece of new information in the most recent batch of stories is that US deliveries may not begin until January 2014, which hints that things may be a little behind schedule? Still, if europeans start getting the car in November, it should theoretically be possible to do a euro-delivery in 2013 and have the car shipped for arrival in January 2014.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/i3/...around-ps35000.

Still: almost April and release is as early as November: 7 months and a lot of blanks to fill.
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  #47  
Old 03-28-2013, 06:40 PM
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The i3 won't be coming to the US until 2014. That means the US details and pricing are at least 7 months out. This is 100% normal, pricing and details don't come out until just a few months or less before the car goes on sale.

Tim
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  #48  
Old 04-02-2013, 11:18 AM
Jake C Jake C is offline
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The i3 won't be coming to the US until 2014. That means the US details and pricing are at least 7 months out. This is 100% normal, pricing and details don't come out until just a few months or less before the car goes on sale.

Tim
Ah. I recall an announcement from a BMW Official that the i3 would be a reality in 2013. Maybe that was for the EU market. Hope it hits the US early in 2014.

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  #49  
Old 04-02-2013, 11:21 AM
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Ah. I recall an announcement from a BMW Official that the i3 would be a reality in 2013. Maybe that was for the EU market. Hope it hits the US early in 2014.

- J
You are correct, we will see the i3 in Europe in 2013, but not in the US. I wouldn't count on an early 2014 launch for the US either. I got the impression BMW is going to see how it does in Europe first before 100% committing to bring it to the US. This was not what I was expecting.

Tim
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  #50  
Old 04-03-2013, 10:00 AM
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In a recent article Autoexpress says mid-November 2013 for Europe with the US in early 2014.


UK price will be around 35,000. Not clear if that is before or after the 5000 govt. grant.


http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/i3/...around-ps35000
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