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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:13 PM
1stbimmerever 1stbimmerever is offline
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lemon law question

As much as I love my car, unfortunately I think it may be a lemon and I am weighing the pros and cons of hiring an attorney to pursue a lemon case against BMW. I've already had several repair attempts to fix the problem, have sent a registered letter to BMW, had a case manager assigned, had the local BMW tech as well as a regional manager look at the car and I am being given the old story- 'normal operation' and 'we cannot reproduce the problem'.

Question I have regarding the lemon law case:
- If BMW does not settle out of court and case goes to trial, and I lose, who pays the court fees, deposition fees etc?

I know this is more a question for the lawyer but I just wanted to see if anyone has had similar experiences and what the outcome had been (who paid for what). I am just trying to calculate the worst case scenario here before I pursue the legal option..
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  #2  
Old 03-05-2013, 05:20 PM
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lqaddict lqaddict is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stbimmerever View Post
As much as I love my car, unfortunately I think it may be a lemon and I am weighing the pros and cons of hiring an attorney to pursue a lemon case against BMW. I've already had several repair attempts to fix the problem, have sent a registered letter to BMW, had a case manager assigned, had the local BMW tech as well as a regional manager look at the car and I am being given the old story- 'normal operation' and 'we cannot reproduce the problem'.

Question I have regarding the lemon law case:
- If BMW does not settle out of court and case goes to trial, and I lose, who pays the court fees, deposition fees etc?

I know this is more a question for the lawyer but I just wanted to see if anyone has had similar experiences and what the outcome had been (who paid for what). I am just trying to calculate the worst case scenario here before I pursue the legal option..
Lemon laws are dry cut. It has set of condition the car must satisfied to qualify for lemon law buy back program.
Is it a new car?
Check with your state lemon law provisions, and proceedings on how to file it, etc.
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  #3  
Old 03-05-2013, 07:58 PM
1stbimmerever 1stbimmerever is offline
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its a used car but qualifies according to CA lemon law.. the question is, if you file a case and lose, what are the worst case losses? attorney fee (probably not), court fee, deposition fee etc? are attorneys usually willing to take the risk and lose the case and eat that cost in the event they lose?
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:43 PM
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lqaddict lqaddict is offline
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Find a number for Attorney General consumer help office. They might answer your concerns.
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  #5  
Old 03-06-2013, 06:42 AM
bam bam is offline
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Originally Posted by 1stbimmerever View Post
its a used car but qualifies according to CA lemon law.. the question is, if you file a case and lose, what are the worst case losses? attorney fee (probably not), court fee, deposition fee etc? are attorneys usually willing to take the risk and lose the case and eat that cost in the event they lose?
I didn't know that a used car could potentially qualify as a lemon under CA lemon law.
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  #6  
Old 03-06-2013, 07:33 AM
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lqaddict lqaddict is offline
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I didn't know that a used car could potentially qualify as a lemon under CA lemon law.
Only for vehicles with explicit warranties

http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon
Quote:
Coverage For Vehicles That Are Not "New"

Although the special provisions discussed above apply to new motor vehicles, Song-Beverly has many general rules that apply to any consumer product sold with an express written warranty. As a result, there is important coverage for motorcycles, the living quarters of a mobile home, used vehicles sold with a dealer's express written warranty, "lemon" vehicles repurchased by the manufacturer and sold to consumers with an express written warranty covering the defect, and vehicles sold with a service contract.

A full description of warranty rights is beyond the scope of this message, but you should be aware that coverage is not identical to the coverage for new motor vehicles. For example, a warrantor who is unable to conform a consumer product to its express warranty within a reasonable number of attempts is required to replace the goods or refund the purchase price less an amount attributable to the consumer's use. Unlike the special rules on new motor vehicles, however, there is no set formula for determining the charge for the consumer's use before the discovery of the defect, and the Lemon Law presumption does not apply.

For complete advice concerning your legal rights, you should consult your own attorney.
OP, good luck, but I think applying the Lemon Law to a used car is a loosing ground 9 times out of 10.

Last edited by lqaddict; 03-06-2013 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:25 AM
1zamboni 1zamboni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stbimmerever View Post
As much as I love my car, unfortunately I think it may be a lemon and I am weighing the pros and cons of hiring an attorney to pursue a lemon case against BMW. I've already had several repair attempts to fix the problem, have sent a registered letter to BMW, had a case manager assigned, had the local BMW tech as well as a regional manager look at the car and I am being given the old story- 'normal operation' and 'we cannot reproduce the problem'.

Question I have regarding the lemon law case:
- If BMW does not settle out of court and case goes to trial, and I lose, who pays the court fees, deposition fees etc?

I know this is more a question for the lawyer but I just wanted to see if anyone has had similar experiences and what the outcome had been (who paid for what). I am just trying to calculate the worst case scenario here before I pursue the legal option..
I had my case settled with BMWNA last Dec on my E93 and they paid for the attorney fee and got most of money back. Went out and bought another E93.
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  #8  
Old 03-06-2013, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stbimmerever View Post
its a used car but qualifies according to CA lemon law.. the question is, if you file a case and lose, what are the worst case losses? attorney fee (probably not), court fee, deposition fee etc? are attorneys usually willing to take the risk and lose the case and eat that cost in the event they lose?
Care to share the problem and the number of attempts to fix it, number of days the vehicle has been in the shop due to the problem?
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  #9  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:43 AM
1stbimmerever 1stbimmerever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lqaddict View Post
Only for vehicles with explicit warranties

http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon


OP, good luck, but I think applying the Lemon Law to a used car is a loosing ground 9 times out of 10.
Talked to the arbitration program in CA and they said anything that's still under factory warranty (4 yrs/50K) can qualify provided it meets other lemon law criteria.

On what basis is it a losing ground 9/10 times? Is there a stat on this somewhere out there that you know of?
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  #10  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:47 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stbimmerever View Post
Talked to the arbitration program in CA and they said anything that's still under factory warranty (4 yrs/50K) can qualify provided it meets other lemon law criteria.

On what basis is it a losing ground 9/10 times? Is there a stat on this somewhere out there that you know of?

Gotta go in unsuccessfully 3 times. Mine, some years back, arbitrated.
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  #11  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:54 AM
1stbimmerever 1stbimmerever is offline
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Care to share the problem and the number of attempts to fix it, number of days the vehicle has been in the shop due to the problem?
When I start the (turn the engine on), within milliseconds there is a loud 'thud' from the undercarriage. It feels as if the shaft that connects the transmission to the differential is engaging (car is in park). At times is so bad that the car actually moves/jerks backwards although only a minute distance..

been in shop for 25+ days over 4+ visits.
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  #12  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:56 AM
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lqaddict lqaddict is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stbimmerever View Post
Talked to the arbitration program in CA and they said anything that's still under factory warranty (4 yrs/50K) can qualify provided it meets other lemon law criteria.

On what basis is it a losing ground 9/10 times? Is there a stat on this somewhere out there that you know of?
Is your car 18 month old or yonger and under 18000 miles?
Quote:
The "Lemon Law" applies to these problems if they arise during the first 18 months after the consumer received delivery of the vehicle or within the first 18,000 miles on the odometer, whichever occurs first. During the first 18 months or 18,000 miles, the "Lemon Law" presumes that a manufacturer has had a reasonable number of attempts to repair the vehicle if either (1) The same problem results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven and the problem has been subject to repair two or more times by the manufacturer or its agents, and the buyer or lessee has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual or (2) The same problem has been subject to repair four or more times by the manufacturer or its agents and the buyer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual or (3) The vehicle is out of service because of the repair of any number of problems by the manufacturer or its agents for a cumulative total of more than 30 days since delivery of the vehicle.
Read the not so new car provisions, and document everything has been done.
For the new car 3 attempts will qualify as reasonable, for a not so new car, well I already quoted it.
Anyway, contact the Consumer Affairs office and go from there.
Good luck!
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  #13  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:03 AM
1stbimmerever 1stbimmerever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lqaddict View Post
Is your car 18 month old or yonger and under 18000 miles?

Read the not so new car provisions, and document everything has been done.
For the new car 3 attempts will qualify as reasonable, for a not so new car, well I already quoted it.
Anyway, contact the Consumer Affairs office and go from there.
Good luck!
From the time that I took delivery- Yes. From the time it was put in service for the first time after it came off the showroom floor, No.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:10 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by 1stbimmerever View Post
From the time that I took delivery- Yes. From the time it was put in service for the first time after it came off the showroom floor, No.
There are a number of considerations here. The CA lemon law presumption that a car is a lemon happens if the first failed repair attempt occurred within the 'presumption period', which I believe is the first 18 months/18,000 miles from the in-service date. After the 'presumption period', there is a requirement to prove the car is a lemon, which is not as cut and dried a circumstance.

As far as proof of failed repair attempts, what do you have? Presumably there is a service invoice for each time you brought the car for repair. What was the result? Expenditure of time and parts being replaced? Or?

If you qualify for lemon law coverage, the cost of representation is covered by BMW NA, which is why once the qualification test is met, settlement proceeds very quickly. You could discuss your case with a lemon law attorney near you and see what they say. If the proof is convincing, the case will settle quickly.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:21 PM
1stbimmerever 1stbimmerever is offline
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
There are a number of considerations here. The CA lemon law presumption that a car is a lemon happens if the first failed repair attempt occurred within the 'presumption period', which I believe is the first 18 months/18,000 miles from the in-service date. After the 'presumption period', there is a requirement to prove the car is a lemon, which is not as cut and dried a circumstance.

As far as proof of failed repair attempts, what do you have? Presumably there is a service invoice for each time you brought the car for repair. What was the result? Expenditure of time and parts being replaced? Or?

If you qualify for lemon law coverage, the cost of representation is covered by BMW NA, which is why once the qualification test is met, settlement proceeds very quickly. You could discuss your case with a lemon law attorney near you and see what they say. If the proof is convincing, the case will settle quickly.
the paperwork (repair orders) say that the car was looked at by BMW tech and was found to be "normal operation". and the first failed repair attempt DID occur in the presumption period. Are you saying once the 18mo/18k get over, its harder to prove?
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:26 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by 1stbimmerever View Post
the paperwork (repair orders) say that the car was looked at by BMW tech and was found to be "normal operation". and the first failed repair attempt DID occur in the presumption period. Are you saying once the 18mo/18k get over, its harder to prove?
Good news for you is the first repair attempt occurred within the 18 month/18,000 mile presumption period. Bad news is that the diagnosis was 'normal operation'. Do you have any additional repair invoices that show actual repairs being attempted (and presumably failed)? Also, total time in the shop requirement in CA is 30 days.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:10 PM
1stbimmerever 1stbimmerever is offline
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
Good news for you is the first repair attempt occurred within the 18 month/18,000 mile presumption period. Bad news is that the diagnosis was 'normal operation'. Do you have any additional repair invoices that show actual repairs being attempted (and presumably failed)? Also, total time in the shop requirement in CA is 30 days.
I think one of the RO's say that they reset the 'adaptive transmission settings'- probably something you do by holding the gas pedal down for x # of secs while ignition is off.. and that fixed the problem. But the problem came back.. infact the problem is intermittent.. i.e. on avg it will accur 2-3 times out of 5.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:17 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by 1stbimmerever View Post
I think one of the RO's say that they reset the 'adaptive transmission settings'- probably something you do by holding the gas pedal down for x # of secs while ignition is off.. and that fixed the problem. But the problem came back.. infact the problem is intermittent.. i.e. on avg it will accur 2-3 times out of 5.
Not the best set of facts for you. The problem you have in pursuing a lemon law action is the problem is intermittent, you have one invoice that shows there is not even a problem, and, and, and. My ex-E93 leaked reliably to the point where the last repair invoice stated that they doubted the problem could ever be fixed - that was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back and BMW NA immediately agreed to a repurchase. Your best course of action would be to contact a lemon law attorney and see if they would be interested in pursuing the case.
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