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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #551  
Old 03-08-2013, 11:04 AM
kiwi_chris kiwi_chris is offline
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One thing I've been curious about guys, is how do you know that the car is swapping between 5th and 6th gear, rather than, say, 4th and 5th? Is there something in the hidden menu that I'm missing that will display the current selected gear whilst in Drive mode?...
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  #552  
Old 03-08-2013, 10:37 PM
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Vapiano Vapiano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi_chris View Post
Nope, fortunately never experienced limp mode. Hope it's not just a matter of time.

I'm based in Genova. It's nowhere near as exotic as places like Positano or Florence or Portofino or Milan etc... wouldn't really recommend a visit here! And boy are the city streets a tight fit for my big car!
LOL! The roads in Italia are extremely tight! Hard to believe how small sometimes, bus drivers are super crazy! The Autostrade is amazing; we rented an Audi A3 and drove from Milan to Certaldo to Rome to Bologna to Sorrento to Positano to the Amalfi Coast, back to Bologna, Rome and Milan! All in two weeks; I had a blast. You must really love the Autostrade!
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  #553  
Old 03-08-2013, 10:52 PM
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Vapiano Vapiano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi_chris View Post
One thing I've been curious about guys, is how do you know that the car is swapping between 5th and 6th gear, rather than, say, 4th and 5th? Is there something in the hidden menu that I'm missing that will display the current selected gear whilst in Drive mode?...
When the car is fluctuating between gears, accelerate and count the gear shifts. One shift up only, 5th to 6th, two shifts up; 4th to 5th.

Update on the tranny pan and oil change; I drained and added 6 liters of new fluid today. The tranny shifts even smoother! I didn't get around to the diff oil change and will do that this weekend. I did notice the oil pressure sensor was leaking and changed that out as well. This has been a great week! Time for a road trip!
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  #554  
Old 03-10-2013, 12:25 PM
kiwi_chris kiwi_chris is offline
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Yup, the Autostrada is pretty sweet. Nice to happily cruise at 95mph for hours on end! Costly though.

Quick question: should the rev fluctuations completely stop if driving in Manual mode? I hadn't really even thought about testing this before, but on a quick drive this afternoon (busy city streets, so hard to measure) the rev needle seemed steady, but I thought I MIGHT have noticed some mild fluttering in M3 cruising at 35mph or so?... Or should this totally not be the case and I'm trying to hard to find an issue with it...
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  #555  
Old 03-10-2013, 02:58 PM
superdavebmw superdavebmw is offline
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Valvetronic repair

I'm new to this forum and came across this thread upon researching an unrelated 745 trans issue. I'm a BMW master tech in Detroit, and had a very similar issue to what you guys are describing. I believe this 745 had a very intermittent misfire on cylinder 3. Upon test driving it, I noticed that it had a bad shudder under light load, i think around 45 MPH. It turned out to not be a trans issue at all, it felt like a bad torque converter or tcc solenoid. It was caused by worn valvetronic levers. I replaced the levers and the eccentric shaft on bank one and it fixed the shudder. There is a test plan in DIS for the valvetronic, it failed the test plan. Just something to take into consideration as a possibility. It may not be a transmission issue even if it feels like it is. Cheers!

Last edited by superdavebmw; 03-10-2013 at 03:00 PM. Reason: misspell
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  #556  
Old 03-10-2013, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi_chris View Post
Yup, the Autostrada is pretty sweet. Nice to happily cruise at 95mph for hours on end! Costly though.

Quick question: should the rev fluctuations completely stop if driving in Manual mode? I hadn't really even thought about testing this before, but on a quick drive this afternoon (busy city streets, so hard to measure) the rev needle seemed steady, but I thought I MIGHT have noticed some mild fluttering in M3 cruising at 35mph or so?... Or should this totally not be the case and I'm trying to hard to find an issue with it...
Fluctuations happen in manual mode as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by superdavebmw View Post
I'm new to this forum and came across this thread upon researching an unrelated 745 trans issue. I'm a BMW master tech in Detroit, and had a very similar issue to what you guys are describing. I believe this 745 had a very intermittent misfire on cylinder 3. Upon test driving it, I noticed that it had a bad shudder under light load, i think around 45 MPH. It turned out to not be a trans issue at all, it felt like a bad torque converter or tcc solenoid. It was caused by worn valvetronic levers. I replaced the levers and the eccentric shaft on bank one and it fixed the shudder. There is a test plan in DIS for the valvetronic, it failed the test plan. Just something to take into consideration as a possibility. It may not be a transmission issue even if it feels like it is. Cheers!
Hey Dave,


Thanks for your input. Can you please elaborate on the shudder that was experienced and how did you determine to run the test plan for the valvetronic levers? Did the valvetronic lever issue show up under a normal code scan to inform you to run the test? If so, what is that code? It would be interesting to see if anyone else is getting this same code.

Also, did this 745i ever go into the limp mode at anytime or have a delay in moving when reverse was selected? The fluctuations most are having seem to happen between a 10 mph range (30-40 mph or 50-60 mph). It feels like power is being turned off and on very quickly. When the dealer checked my car for codes initially, it had a misfire in banks 1 & 3 to go along with the tranny codes. I changed out all plugs and the misfiring ceased, but the tranny issues were still present.

At this point, schpenxel and myself have swapped out the solenoids, mech adapter and sealing sleeve and this has taken care of our tranny issues noted. Hopefully, others will chime in on their experiences as well. This will go a long way in determining and understanding how many sources could be causing the problem.
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  #557  
Old 03-11-2013, 01:05 PM
superdavebmw superdavebmw is offline
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I think this was about a year ago so I'll ellaborate to the best of my memory. I don't think the 745 ever went into trans failsafe and I don't think the customer was even complaining of the shudder (even though I thought it was really bad). I think it only had a very intermittent misfire on cylinder 3. I had tried a plug, coil, and swapped injectors but it still occasionally came back on cylinder 3. It didn't throw the misfire fault every time that I test drove it either, it always took a couple days for the Service Engine light to come back on. I've seen a ton of those rectangular seals fail in association with trans fault 4f81. Torque converters were a common failure on the early e65 production and we've done some mechatronics for various other failures. I'm pretty sure it was at 35 or 45 mph, going from cruising speed (very light throttle) to giving it moderate throttle, almost to the point that it would need to initiate a downshift for additional power. It was to the point that I could duplicate it every time that I drove it and it would basically buck, jerk, chug. As soon as you gave it more or less throttle, it ran and drove fine. There were no faults for the valvetronic, I think this is bacause the system was working fine but there was mechanical wear of the levers and the shaft. Valvetronic will cause strange issues when those parts sustain wear, different abouts of air being pulled into the individual cylinders. I only tried the test plan because I knew it was a possibility and I had exhausted all other common possibilities for an intermittent misfire. I was elated after repairing the valvetronic and coming to find that the shudder was gone.

Any kind of delay in gear engagement definitely sounds more like a trans or mechatronics issue than what I'm describing. I hope you guys find this somewhat helpful
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  #558  
Old 03-11-2013, 07:57 PM
peachykonan peachykonan is offline
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Hi guys,

I don't have the car yet but can report from the mechanic who test drove the car after the service.

2-1 downshift jerk is now gone!!! There's a 2->3 3->2 shift that can be felt but appears to be getting less after a 2nd test drive. He mentioned that it could continually get better due to adaptations being recently reset.

Many thanks to both thectsc.com (Klaus) and Tim from Bimmer PHD!!!

Once I pick up the car tomorrow I'll know for sure.

Thanks,
Mark
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  #559  
Old 03-11-2013, 08:26 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Good to hear!

Did you have the problem with the 39mph "hiccup" as well?
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  #560  
Old 03-12-2013, 08:29 PM
peachykonan peachykonan is offline
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Picked up the car, and the transmission seems to be shifting fine. I can feel a slight hiccup around 20-30mph, but it's not significant or consistent. The downshift jerkiness is gone. I'll probably do a 2nd trans flush + diff flush in about a month.

Really happy with this fix. Thank you Schpenxel + Vapiano .

Added a few pics in the post linked below.
http://forums.5series.net/e60-discus...3/#post1494860

Last edited by peachykonan; 03-12-2013 at 08:31 PM.
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  #561  
Old 03-13-2013, 04:02 PM
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Vapiano Vapiano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peachykonan View Post
Picked up the car, and the transmission seems to be shifting fine. I can feel a slight hiccup around 20-30mph, but it's not significant or consistent. The downshift jerkiness is gone. I'll probably do a 2nd trans flush + diff flush in about a month.

Really happy with this fix. Thank you Schpenxel + Vapiano .

Added a few pics in the post linked below.
http://forums.5series.net/e60-discus...3/#post1494860
Rock on! This is great news! That hiccup should go away after 2-3 weeks when the full adaptation is completed. Keep in mind that you are very sensitive to how the transmission shifts based on the previous issues. What you are feeling could be normal up and down shifts; I was driving one day and not paying attention to the transmission and the car naturally downshifted. I immediately thought it was a fluctuation! Now that is gun shy!!! LOL.
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  #562  
Old 03-13-2013, 05:04 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vapiano View Post
Rock on! This is great news! That hiccup should go away after 2-3 weeks when the full adaptation is completed. Keep in mind that you are very sensitive to how the transmission shifts based on the previous issues. What you are feeling could be normal up and down shifts; I was driving one day and not paying attention to the transmission and the car naturally downshifted. I immediately thought it was a fluctuation! Now that is gun shy!!! LOL.
I've started noticing down shifts in every car I ride in now lol. It helped me realize mine is now smoother than most at least
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  #563  
Old 03-26-2013, 07:25 AM
kiwi_chris kiwi_chris is offline
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Received my box of new ZF original solenoids today... pardon my ignorance guys, but other than 3 being blue, 3 yellow, and 1 black, is there any way to tell which is which, for when it comes to swapping out the old ones? (and so I can explain it to my local Italian garage guy!). I can't see any specific markings on em...
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  #564  
Old 03-26-2013, 07:38 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi_chris View Post
Received my box of new ZF original solenoids today... pardon my ignorance guys, but other than 3 being blue, 3 yellow, and 1 black, is there any way to tell which is which, for when it comes to swapping out the old ones? (and so I can explain it to my local Italian garage guy!). I can't see any specific markings on em...
Color is all that matters... They aren't specific to a certain location other than by color

Note that some of mine were green, and were replaced with blue. There is a part number stamped on the part you can match up if you aren't sure (they changed the green ones to blue for some reason, same part number, just diff color)
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  #565  
Old 03-26-2013, 08:08 AM
kiwi_chris kiwi_chris is offline
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Okay, cheers.

One more thing... the literature that came in the box with them gives a brief method of replacement. The first two are: 1) Drain gearbox oil in order to remove Mechatronic unit from the gearbox. 2) Reset adaption values by means of tester. 3) etc etc...

Now, my garage can't (and probably doesn't know how to) reset the adaption values. But I can, via INPA. So, is it ok to replace the old solenoids with the new, re-fill with new ATF, THEN reset via INPA after everything's been put back? (I'll have to take my laptop to the garage to do it before I drive home I guess, or will it not hurt if I leave it till I get home?).

(also, it shouldn't be a problem to re-use the existing pan/filter right? It's only done about 2,000km since I had the trans oil changed for new...)
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  #566  
Old 03-26-2013, 11:53 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi_chris View Post
Okay, cheers.

One more thing... the literature that came in the box with them gives a brief method of replacement. The first two are: 1) Drain gearbox oil in order to remove Mechatronic unit from the gearbox. 2) Reset adaption values by means of tester. 3) etc etc...

Now, my garage can't (and probably doesn't know how to) reset the adaption values. But I can, via INPA. So, is it ok to replace the old solenoids with the new, re-fill with new ATF, THEN reset via INPA after everything's been put back? (I'll have to take my laptop to the garage to do it before I drive home I guess, or will it not hurt if I leave it till I get home?).

(also, it shouldn't be a problem to re-use the existing pan/filter right? It's only done about 2,000km since I had the trans oil changed for new...)
As long as you reset before you drive it, it'll be just fine.

I would leave the pan and use new oil. If you ever change the oil in the future, reset adaptations again.
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  #567  
Old 03-27-2013, 01:03 PM
kiwi_chris kiwi_chris is offline
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Okay cool thanks for that.

I've just read in another forum that this rev fluctuation issue is often caused by a worn torque converter. Anybody had any experience with this? I'm considering swapping it out for a new one at the same time as I get the solenoids changed, to avoid the possibility of having to open up the 'box for a third time... is it a whole lot of extra work for my garage guy?
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  #568  
Old 03-27-2013, 03:04 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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You just have to pull the whole transmission out, lol

Torque converter change is a pretty big job. Much more than solenoid. Try solenoid first

One of the solenoids you're replacing controls the torque converter, so it may help anyways if that's the problem (which I don't think it is)
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  #569  
Old 03-27-2013, 04:11 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi_chris View Post
Okay cool thanks for that.

I've just read in another forum that this rev fluctuation issue is often caused by a worn torque converter. Anybody had any experience with this? I'm considering swapping it out for a new one at the same time as I get the solenoids changed, to avoid the possibility of having to open up the 'box for a third time... is it a whole lot of extra work for my garage guy?
Let me elaborate a little more (I was driving earlier)

In order to get to the torque converter, you have to either pull the engine or drop the transmission, obviously neither of which is very much fun. I've done it before on other cars, but really wouldn't want to do it on one of these without a lift.

To change the solenoids, all you have to do is take out a few bolts bolts on the bottom of the transmission which are easy to get to--something easily done in an afternoon

Having said that, the work required to change the torque converter and the work required to change the solenoids are almost completely different, so you aren't really going to save anything (or much at least) by doing the two at the same time. Given that the parts and labor are cheaper on the solenoids, I'd still recommend trying those first. One of the solenoids actually controls the torque converter lock up, so even if the symptom is caused by the torque converter misbehaving, there's the off chance that the solenoids will fix it.

Personally I don't think that's the problem in the majority of cases, so from that perspective it also makes sense to change the solenoids first.

edit: also, the torque converter is separate from the transmission, so changing it would not involve opening the transmission

Torque Converter:



Transmission (see the torque converter in yellow'ish? It just slides onto the shaft


Last edited by schpenxel; 03-27-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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  #570  
Old 03-27-2013, 08:29 PM
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Vapiano Vapiano is offline
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I agree with schpenxel, I would start with the solenoids first; which IMO would take car of your issues. A torque converter problem would also be constant.
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  #571  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:58 AM
kiwi_chris kiwi_chris is offline
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Fair call. It's going into the garage hopefully next week for the solenoids to be done. I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks for the advice!...
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  #572  
Old 04-01-2013, 10:23 AM
e46supra e46supra is offline
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This thread is amazing, so much information and willingness to help!

I have been off Bimmerfest of a number of years as I have not had a Bimmer for a while. My Dad (my BMW inspiration and enabler) however still has quite a BMW stable... one of which is a 2004 545ia ZSP/ZPP that has all of the transmission issues listed in this thread.

The major symptom with his 545i is the delay between movement and gear selection when selecting reverse and the gear juggling when cruising at certain speeds/RPMs. The car also creeps/studders at slow speed when accelerating AND braking. I can recreate these issues on command now. I have not seen fail-safe mode, but the car is left not driven and in the garage as these issues are super prevalent.

Anyways, the solenoid replacement looks extremely promising... however I am not confident in my (or my Dad's) ability to do the repair. Does anyone in San Diego or Southern CA recommend a shop that can do this? I am very good friends with Shane at Euro Auto Spot in Miramar and he will be my first choice to get this done, sometimes he is very hesitant to follow internet advice that I find and give him though.
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  #573  
Old 04-01-2013, 10:45 AM
technoman technoman is offline
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are you guys seeing this problem with jst cars older than 2008 ?
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  #574  
Old 04-01-2013, 10:53 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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I don't recall reading about it happening on the later models, but don't hold me to that
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  #575  
Old 04-02-2013, 11:37 PM
Damon54 Damon54 is offline
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Tim et al,

My 2005 had it's mechatronic replaced under warranty at the 96,000 mile mark. Got really lucky there but noticed by the billing records they had put the old pan & filter back on & reused as much of the original fluid as possible.

Had this mechatronic work not been done I would almost certainly be all about following your solenoid swap procedure.

My new issue:

This one is in for the long haul so I recently changed the pan/filter & added ZF fluid. Drove it for a bit ( many months) then did my 2nd flush/refill 2 weeks ago. Now at 116,327 I need info on the reset adaptation procedure or if I should bother since it has been 2 weeks now since the 2nd flush.

Last edited by Damon54; 04-02-2013 at 11:44 PM.
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