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7 Series - E65 / E66 (2002 - 2008)
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  #26  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:56 PM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
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Mein Auto: E66 760, E38 750, E34 540
The dealership probably realized we are close to disassembly of the HPFP and realize their
days of charging $2500 per pump are numbered. I ended up installing some leds for an angel eye light problem this weekend so I didn't get around to fabricating the pentagon bit; hopefully this week.
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  #27  
Old 03-19-2013, 06:52 PM
mws mws is offline
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priorities man!!!!! (taps finger on table). :-)
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  #28  
Old 03-19-2013, 09:35 PM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
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Here you go, one naked 760 HPFP

The bolt actually came out with very little torque. Very beefy fuel pump from what I've seen.
This was my first crack at fabricating a tool (pentagon bit), so no wise cracks, it looks like crap but it worked well enough.

http://s933.photobucket.com/user/theputum/library/
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  #29  
Old 03-19-2013, 09:45 PM
nr123 nr123 is offline
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Is the goal to find what failed inside and then replace that piece and try the HPFP to see if it works?
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  #30  
Old 03-19-2013, 09:49 PM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
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I don't even know if this pump failed or not. I just want to know more about a piece of hardware that is ridiculously expensive. So far, I have not seen anything torn. I will dig a little deeper later on, just wanted to give you all a little something to chew on. This was a pump I picked up on Ebay a couple months ago for next to nothing and it looked like the guy was a wrecker from his other car part auctions and didn't know the value of these pumps, a perfect candidate for the bimmerfest community knowledge bank.

Last edited by new760Liowner; 03-19-2013 at 09:51 PM.
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  #31  
Old 03-20-2013, 07:49 AM
mws mws is offline
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yes that is the goal

Quote:
Originally Posted by nr123 View Post
Is the goal to find what failed inside and then replace that piece and try the HPFP to see if it works?
I have two vendors who are interested in looking into rebuilding them. Are either of you interested in discussing this privately and perhaps, donating your pump(s) to their research to help them determine if they can rebuild them?

It is probable we can get them back and send them along to vendor #2 if vendor #1 is not able to figure out a solution.
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  #32  
Old 03-20-2013, 07:50 AM
mws mws is offline
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No wise cracks from me

Quote:
Originally Posted by new760Liowner View Post
The bolt actually came out with very little torque. Very beefy fuel pump from what I've seen.
This was my first crack at fabricating a tool (pentagon bit), so no wise cracks, it looks like crap but it worked well enough.

http://s933.photobucket.com/user/theputum/library/
as far as I am concerned that is the most beautiful tool I have ever seen. I belive you are the first person on Earth to open one up and begin to document it's dissection. Kudos for you.

You know I was just joking about the priorities thing... I too have those LEDs, so I can appreciate how nice they look.
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  #33  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:44 AM
mws mws is offline
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Mein Auto: 760Li, F250 V10, Ex 7.3L
The 50K mile wrecked car's engine, transmission and front cross-member, radiator, condenser, fan, PS and oil coolers, and all engine bay hoses, are in my 135K 760Li now.

Purrs like a kitten. Drove it to work today.

So, does it start quicker with the 50K mile HPFPs? yes it does.

The other thing to note: car spent some time upside down when it got wrecked. I did find a cc or two of liquid gas on each HPFP hose that attaches to the nipple when I first got it. Then, after many days of testing the motor, I left it alone for more than 24 hours. While working on it to remnve the engine from the wreck, I found a good 5-8 ccs of gas on one HPFP. Maybe it's beginning to die. Maybe not.

I'll keep an eye on it and see if more gas develops there. Thinking it is "possible" that while it was upside down, something could have gone wonky and allowed some gas in there. But I know that carbon canister vent systems are meant to prevent gas leaks while upside down.

Also of note: I plan to photograph and document and make a video of, the ENTIRE gas tubing and venting and drainback system so we can understand it. BMWs TIS is a joke when it comes to this system. There are no other sources of information. Bentley does not make a manual for the E65 66.

Last edited by mws; 03-22-2013 at 12:16 PM.
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  #34  
Old 03-23-2013, 06:19 PM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
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So I went back into the pump and discovered that the piece of plastic with the "1" on the top is just a plastic seat insert for the bottom of the spring;
it pops out easy enough. Below the cap is the diaphragm. This is where things start to make sense with the posts about fuel entering the regulator
vent line. The outer diaphragm annulus appears to be constructed of a wire mesh. Sitting on top of the mesh, near the aluminum housing of the fuel pump
was a deteriorated rubber washer. The center of the diaphragm is composed of a very thin, light-green, rubber-like material that easily deforms with slight
pressure. You can see where the bore lies and where the aluminum housing is; it's that thin of a material. On the bright side, it appears the diaphragm is
sandwiched between the aluminum housing and the brass outer annulus. Once I figure out how to remove the brass annulus, a replacement diaphragm may
be able to be used provided the material and thickness are suitable for the pressure and gasoline/ethanol environment. Pics of the diaphragm later tonight on the photobucket link in the earlier part of this thread.
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  #35  
Old 03-23-2013, 07:04 PM
nr123 nr123 is offline
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I'm curious though, once you feel you have repaired it, are you going to actually test it in your own car?
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  #36  
Old 03-23-2013, 07:16 PM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
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My HPFPs are fine for the moment, no reason to disturb them. Once the diaphragm is
identified (dimensions, material), members can source out a replacement to have on hand
should their HPFP give up the ghost in the future. The way I see it, you've got nothing to lose
replacing the diaphragm if your HPFP is identified as being bad. Picture of the diaphragm is up now.
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  #37  
Old 03-23-2013, 07:33 PM
mws mws is offline
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am I right in reading that if they were on the car, and you had a penta-hex tool, you could replace the diaphragm on-car?

also, what do you think is causing bad pressure readings on truly dying ones. (not just ones leaking into the vent system)
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  #38  
Old 03-23-2013, 07:55 PM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
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Might be kind of awkward trying to replace the diaphragm installed but if you had access to the fuel pressure regulator face, you should have access to the diaphragm.

My guess is some contaminant in the pressurized fuel chamber impacts the diaphragm and tears it open. Once punctured, high pressure will not be achieved since it will follow the path of least resistance (vent line) and will never achieve the minimum level needed for the fuel line.

Now, what is the contaminant? I read some threads that the dealer not only replaced the HPFPs but also the fuel injectors. If they replaced the fuel injectors, something likely clogged the injectors that wasn't soluble in gas. I doubt gasoline contaminants are making it past the initial fuel filter media for all these HPFP replacements and is more likely something in the pump, maybe fine aluminum particles from a lack of lubrication?

After looking at this fuel pump, I think it's in good condition (piston travels in the bore and the diaphragm is intact). Going to do a little more research on removing the brass annulus next week.
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  #39  
Old 04-01-2013, 11:21 AM
heavenlyride heavenlyride is offline
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Mein Auto: e66 & e38 and e39
Has anyone gotten further on the solution?

I like you have rough idle and i have replaced everything but the hPFP. Before I go after that, I would like to know if it can be repaired. IT appears that the components that break down are accessible.

Did any of the people you spoke to want to try to repair them? at 2500 that is ridiculous not to have a repair option.
__________________
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760LI main
740il and 540I sport are backup toys!
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  #40  
Old 04-01-2013, 11:37 AM
mws mws is offline
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Do you have gasoline in your tank vent tubing? or the tank vent valves?

I have not sent mine in for evaluation and I have tried PM-ing others to see if they are interested in doing so if needed, and have not heard back yet. I'll try to get on it next week. I am out of town all week. A few things to think about***********:

rare cars, probably only a few hundred 760s ordered each year.

The part is not shared by any other BMW. we might luck out if some or all of the internal parts are shared by another pump, but do not hold your breath.

The newer BMWs that DO have a rebuild option, those pumps sell in the 10s of thousands of units, if not hundreds of thousands. Makes rebuilding them much more profitable.
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  #41  
Old 04-01-2013, 11:57 AM
mws mws is offline
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btw: nr123 mentioned to me he bought one here and they have him a 10% discount, so it was more like $1800.

http://faulknerbmwpartssource.com/pa...=FUEL%20SUPPLY

$3600 for a pair beats $5000 for a pair, if we don't find a rebuilder.
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  #42  
Old 05-05-2013, 03:39 PM
mws mws is offline
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N73 760Li HPFP videos!

I finally had the chance to remove my 2 known-dead 135K mile HPFPs. These were gushing gas into the tank vent tubing and the tank vent valve. This was definitely causing hesitation and bad driving, due to large amounts of gas gulping into the intake plenum/manifold.

One thing I will say: I wish "I" could get $3000 labor to remove and install them. I'd earn about $1000 an hour.

removal:



the hole in the gas vent diaphragm:

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  #43  
Old 05-06-2013, 09:25 AM
new760Liowner new760Liowner is offline
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Good job figuring out the diaphragm was the culprit. The VW Touareg and Audi Q7 have a high pressure fuel pump that
looks very similar to the N73 pump, just smaller. Those pumps run around $200 on Ebay and I wonder if the diaphragm
can be pulled and replaced into the N73 pump; better yet, if Bosch would sell the diaphragms separately but I doubt that
will happen.
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  #44  
Old 07-02-2013, 10:25 AM
mws mws is offline
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Update on the 50K mile motor and pumps in my car: at 5K miles later...

I actually pulled the quick -releases off my Tank Vent valves this morning. They were clean. If they had gas up that far in the tubing, I would be worried. I then pulled the rubber hoses off the tops of each pump (by the diaphragm that is leaking in the above movies), and there was a cc or so, of wet gas in one hose and a few drops in the other. When the diaphragms are leaking, this is where the leak starts to build up--in the rubber hoses on top of each pump. Then the gas moves up the tank vent tubing, reaches the vent valves, then gets sucked into the intake manifold. But I also suspect this is normal gasoline condensation and it rolls to the lowest point in the system and sits in those hoses on top of the pumps as well.

or, my diaphragms are leaking EXTREMELY slowly.
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  #45  
Old 07-27-2013, 11:17 PM
V12seven V12seven is offline
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Fuel in HPFP vent line

It's ok to have fuel in the lines, up to 1 litre per hour per pump flows back to tank. There's a lot of info on this in their TIS manual. I'm having problems with my car misfiring, I'm changing the fuel filter/ pressure regulator to see if its the problem. When I first started to get misfires I changed all my plugs and coils only to experience worse misfires.
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  #46  
Old 07-28-2013, 09:15 AM
mws mws is offline
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V12seven it depends upon which fuel lines you are talking about. There's three that go to each HPFP. supply, drainback (back to tank, even has it's own filter to clean oil and particles out before going back to the tank) and then the tank vent tubing on top of the fuel pumps which goes to the tank vent valves which feed your throttle bodies with (hopefully) just a little bit of vented gas fumes. The tank vent valves should not be sending a litre per hour to anywhere. The drainback fuel lines are what you are referring to as shepherding a litre of gas per hour. It goes back to the tank.

I made a movie that shows the routing of all this, with engine out of car, but it's buried on an SD card somewehere.

I am pretty sure changing out the fuel pump with the regulator built in, will not fix your misfire, but if the car has any miles on it, it's not a bad thing to maintain.

I had a bumpy idle on the wreck donor car I got my fresher N73 engine from. The MAFs had oil on them. Not a small amount, I mean, they were caked in visible, dirty oil. I thought I had cleaned them, but--not enough. Even still the engine ran pretty good, but seemed to misfire, especially at idle.

I swapped out the MAFS for a cleaner set and the idle cleaned right up. I know I have the "bumpy idle movie" somewhere, I'll try to look for it. but here's the After movie:

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  #47  
Old 07-28-2013, 10:06 AM
V12seven V12seven is offline
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You're right, my bad. I was reading up on it late last night, hoping of course that my hpfp's are not the cause of my troubles. I plan to disconnect and plug both vent lines from pumps and connect tubing from pumps to a container to see if my engine will run better, this should tell me if fuel was making its way from the pumps to the manifold.
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  #48  
Old 07-28-2013, 01:44 PM
mws mws is offline
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not a problem, understanding this system is difficult. It's complex and not obvious. to make matters worse, TIS has no theory of operation of the vent system, that I could find, and there's no good diagram of the entire system. I had to piece it together by looking at the 3.5L turbo fuel system diagrams, and add our filtered drainback to the diagram in my head.

if you are having issues with the engine hesitating and bumping due to raw fuel being dumped in via your tank vent valves filling up, remove the two quick releases in this picture (make sure you click them back on firmly) and see if you have gas dribbling out. If you do, it's getting sucked straight into the TBs and intake manifold and choking your engine on occasion.



that would be bad, mmmkay..
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  #49  
Old 07-28-2013, 04:38 PM
V12seven V12seven is offline
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Well I just got done with my pump check, I didn't see you're reply but had already disconnected that yesterday and there was a little fuel there. Today I disconnected both hoses from the pump tops, plugged the hoses and connected clear tubing to pumps. On starting the engine the left bank pump quickly started filling the tube with 2 to 3cc a minute, right bank was ok. I fashioned a crude five point out of a 5mm hex key socket, it worked and was easy to use with an extension. There was some residual pressure left in system on removal of the cap and I could observe a small jet of fuel from one area at the edge of the diaphragm. The leaking pump has yellow writing on the cap as well as on most components relating to this pump, car was still under warranty when I purchased it but things are not perfect under the hood. My diaphragm looks a little messy, almost like its had sealant spread around the edge, could it be........? Could that work, short term? Not fully understanding what pressure is under the diaphragm makes me wonder, can that membrane really withstand 1700 psi or the 87 psi from the tank? I may try some petroleum resistant sealant, nothing to lose.
I've read these or forums for years, they are a great help, thanks for your input.
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  #50  
Old 07-28-2013, 07:21 PM
V12seven V12seven is offline
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I realize that the plastic cap limits the membranes movement, for this reason I hope that a coat of sealant compressed between the cap/ spring and diaphragm seat will effect a functional repair.

Mws, unrelated to pumps, I replaced my plugs with Bosch 4 prong thinking that's what was installed. All coils replaced with factory Bosch. Are the NGK laser platinum a better plug? Like I mentioned, I'm still getting misc. misfires, I'm wondering if the plugs could cause this. My car is 2003 and has 87,000 miles.
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