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7 Series - F01 / F02 (2009 - current)
The new re-designed 7 series F01 / F02 leads off the BMW Fxx chassis code!

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  #1  
Old 03-19-2013, 01:10 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is offline
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Considering having my car detailed (compounded)...

Considering having my car detailed (compounded) for the first time, but have some questions:

1. Is it true that any amount of compounding removes some clear coat? If so, is the amount truly negligible or does removing any amount make the paint more susceptible? (detailing / compounding / waxing is not something I do / plan to do on a regular basis)

2. Will compounding leave buffer / hologram marks, and if so, do detailers use ‘glaze’ to (temporarily) cover up same, such that I wouldn’t realize same until a few weeks later, when the ‘glaze’ wears off? (I can ask the detailer what their practices are, but who’s to say I’d receive an honest answer)

P.S.: I’d use a reputable local shop that’s been around for a long time and details all types of cars, high end exotics included.

Thanks!
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:21 PM
coole65i coole65i is offline
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1. Yes. It's also called "paint correction" where they remove a micro-milimeter of clear coat to flatten the paint to remove deeper imperfections. Any professional who knows what they are doing will measure the paint thickness electronically before taking on this feat. This is NOT something you should do regularly. Once the paint has been corrected and sealed, you should make an effort to keep the surface from getting marred from cheap car washes. This is typically a 5-6 hour process.

2. The whole point of polishing using compounds (fine abrasives) is to remove swirls and holograms. The paint must be sealed and waxed after the polishing.

If you are in NY, I think there is detailersdomain.com in NJ who is f'in awesome. Here's a sample of their work. I only wish I were in NJ.
http://forums.5series.net/detailing-...i-coat-130015/

Last edited by coole65i; 03-19-2013 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:26 PM
AdamG13 AdamG13 is offline
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removed. ended up posting almost exactly what Coole65i said! I guess detailersdomain is the place to be since we've all heard of them all the way out here in CA!
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:52 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is offline
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Thanks guys!

So you're saying the paint should be 'sealed' after 'compounding'.

Maybe I should ask my question in a different way:

If I don't plan to seal / glaze / wax my car on a regular basis (never have for any of my cars), should I not have a shop 'compound' my car?

Thanks again!
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:50 PM
coole65i coole65i is offline
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LOL, yea.. call Philip at Detailers Domain, he'll answer all your questions. :-)
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  #6  
Old 03-19-2013, 06:53 PM
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csmeance csmeance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs600 View Post
Considering having my car detailed (compounded) for the first time, but have some questions:

1. Is it true that any amount of compounding removes some clear coat? If so, is the amount truly negligible or does removing any amount make the paint more susceptible? (detailing / compounding / waxing is not something I do / plan to do on a regular basis)

2. Will compounding leave buffer / hologram marks, and if so, do detailers use ‘glaze’ to (temporarily) cover up same, such that I wouldn’t realize same until a few weeks later, when the ‘glaze’ wears off? (I can ask the detailer what their practices are, but who’s to say I’d receive an honest answer)

P.S.: I’d use a reputable local shop that’s been around for a long time and details all types of cars, high end exotics included.

Thanks!
1. Any time you use any sort of abrasive (polishes, compounds, sandpaper, etc) you are removing a VERY tiny amount of paint. However you have to remember that paint on a car is only as thick as a sheet of paper for the most part (german cars can be thicker, IE 2+ sheets of paper).

A professional detailer who handles exotics and such will use a paint depth meter to check the thickness to see what the appropriate course of action is such as one from here:
http://www.defelsko.com/coatingthickness.htm . That way they don't "burn" through the paint and expose the metal underneath. An unexperienced detailer using a rotary buffer can burn though paint on a BRAND NEW CAR if they don't know what they are doing.

Lastly, you mentioned compounding regularly; In a perfect world you only compound the paint once to remove ALL defects and then keep it sealed with a Polymer Wax, Ceramic Coating, etc so it doesn't oxidize. As well you polish it whenever necessary (about once a year or so, clay it, etc) and do a yearly detail. Compounding should be done ONLY when necessary. It's not something you should be doing every 6 months or on a time schedule. If you learn proper techniques for washing, keep your car sealed with a wax or sealant, you should be fine without compounding for as long as you own your car.

2. Sometimes compounding and polishing can leave behind trails, holograms and worse defects if the detailer does not detail properly. If they use the wrong combination of pads and compounds, move to fast, etc they can cause all of that. As well if they don't follow up with a second stage of smaller abrasives they can leave some marring. Some low quality detailers will do exactly what you stated, compound and then fill in with a glaze to hide. The best way to ensure that you don't have any sort of marring is to wipe the car down with Isopropyl Alcohol and remove any sort of oils and fillers before any sort of glaze or sealant is applied. That way you can see it all and fix it if they are there.


Usually you get what you pay for; in all honesty I'd talk to that shop and tell them you've had a ****ty detail before that was filled in with glaze and you don't want that. You want a full paint correction and you want it sealed with a good sealant that can hold up for a good bit of time. Don't expect it to be a standard 150 dollar detail.

When I first got my 760, I spend 500 dollars with a detailer to have him come to my place and spend about 10+ hours correcting any sort of RIDs, Scratch, etc on my car and sealing it with a durable sealant. The car has looked stunning since!
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  #7  
Old 03-19-2013, 08:07 PM
AdamG13 AdamG13 is offline
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Avoid the dealer detailer bro they've always sucked in my experience. Just have a pro come to you. It'll save time and probably some drama.
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  #8  
Old 03-19-2013, 08:57 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is offline
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Woah, csmeance! Quite the post! (<-- I usually just give a smiley face! lol.)
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:53 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is offline
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Detail done for $200 and very happy with the results!

Let's see how it holds up...

Thanks guys!

Last edited by dbs600; 03-22-2013 at 08:52 PM.
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  #10  
Old 05-30-2013, 04:18 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is offline
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A month after detailing I noticed these not previously present hologram marks throughout my car, most noticeable on the hood (just now had the time to take and post pictures).

Suffice to say, very upset, and the "detailer" didn't have the right attitude when I showed him; ended in argument (so don't want him trying to fix this either).

Any insight into whether or not this can be fixed, without continual / ongoing sealing / maintenance?
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  #11  
Old 05-30-2013, 04:43 PM
Kar Don Kar Don is offline
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Considering having my car detailed (compounded)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs600 View Post
A month after detailing I noticed these not previously present hologram marks throughout my car, most noticeable on the hood (just now had the time to take and post pictures).

Suffice to say, very upset, and the "detailer" didn't have the right attitude when I showed him; ended in argument (so don't want him trying to fix this either).

Any insight into whether or not this can be fixed, without continual / ongoing sealing / maintenance?
Yea that's what happens when you get the cheapo detail. Puts on a high speed glaze with a rotary buffer and u are so impressed when you pick it up. A month later when it evaporates you are pissed and he just pins the blame on you. Like we said before anyone that calls it compounding you should avoid, but you did it anyway.


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Old 05-30-2013, 04:52 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is offline
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Quote:
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Yea that's what happens when you get the cheapo detail. Puts on a high speed glaze with a rotary buffer and u are so impressed when you pick it up. A month later when it evaporates you are pissed and he just pins the blame on you. Like we said before anyone that calls it compounding you should avoid, but you did it anyway.
Yes, stupidly.

Thoughts on repair?
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  #13  
Old 05-30-2013, 04:55 PM
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This is horrible, I'd rip this "detailer" his arms off, and to think he charged you 200 bucks for fking up you paint, ffs.
Even a blind dog with a rotary would leave less swirls and holograms than that.

This CAN (and should) be fixed, but please use some serious shop and be ready to pay up to 500 since they have to really correct the paint now.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs600 View Post
A month after detailing I noticed these not previously present hologram marks throughout my car, most noticeable on the hood (just now had the time to take and post pictures).

Suffice to say, very upset, and the "detailer" didn't have the right attitude when I showed him; ended in argument (so don't want him trying to fix this either).

Any insight into whether or not this can be fixed, without continual / ongoing sealing / maintenance?

Just a question, how is your car washed? Doing a bad job on washing, can result in what you're seeing. If it's not been washed at all in the month since it was detailed, then yes, that's a very, very bad job.
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:15 PM
Kar Don Kar Don is offline
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Originally Posted by aom7 View Post
Just a question, how is your car washed? Doing a bad job on washing, can result in what you're seeing. If it's not been washed at all in the month since it was detailed, then yes, that's a very, very bad job.
you would NEVER get marks like that from washing... unless you wash your car with a rotary buffer. That is very clearly rotary buffer marks.
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kar Don View Post
you would NEVER get marks like that from washing... unless you wash your car with a rotary buffer. That is very clearly rotary buffer marks.
Hard to tell from the photos, but the last one at least looks like swirlmarks from a bad wash/dry job. I detailed for a few years in my younger days... I'd be shocked by the folks that would pay us 300-500 (back in the 90s) for a detail job... then take their cars to a machine car wash (or have their kids wash their cars). Not saying that was the case here... but just wondering.

Also, I wouldn't let anyone but me rotary buff my car... otherwise, I'd expect them to use a Random orbital polisher (so you'd avoid this stuff in the first place).
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:51 PM
Kar Don Kar Don is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aom7 View Post
Hard to tell from the photos, but the last one at least looks like swirlmarks from a bad wash/dry job. I detailed for a few years in my younger days... I'd be shocked by the folks that would pay us 300-500 (back in the 90s) for a detail job... then take their cars to a machine car wash (or have their kids wash their cars). Not saying that was the case here... but just wondering.

Also, I wouldn't let anyone but me rotary buff my car... otherwise, I'd expect them to use a Random orbital polisher (so you'd avoid this stuff in the first place).
you're spot on. Classic case of you get what you pay for.

Spend the money and buy the products/equipment to do it yourself... or call phil in new jersey to do your car.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:07 PM
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asci01 asci01 is offline
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you would NEVER get marks like that from washing... unless you wash your car with a rotary buffer. That is very clearly rotary buffer marks.
Agree. Thats not from car washing but from bad rotary buffer technique.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:17 PM
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OP, assuming their "compounding" actually took care of the major defects in the first place, note: I would also NEVER compound an ENTIRE 2 year old car unless it's gotten paintwork or has never seen a garage , you could probably just polish it yourself (or take it to someone or have them come to you). The polishing will take care of the swirl marks (and again, make sure they use a random orbital, not a rotary) and make sure they don't put any glaze or wax when they are done (you WANT to see what it looks like raw).

Before you make payment, wash a panel, in the shade--never in direct sunlight (cloth diaper, fresh clean bucket of water, dishwashing soap, like palmolive from top to bottom.. you can just use bottled water too. I use one set for the top half of the car, then another for the bottom half, but for this purpose, you don't have to, just wash the top half of a panel. Dry with another clean cloth diaper and see if any swirls/marks are present. If not, then you're golden, if so, then they need to redo or they lied and did use some kind of glaze).

It's a pity the original place was so hard to work with (back in the day, we'd have corrected that, even if it was the owner's fault and even after a month). Maybe you could leave them a bad Yelp review or something. Also, 200 is indeed cheap for a "detailing". That's kind of just a good carwash at that point. Detailing is more like 600+ nowadays and if they claim they charge 200 to "detail" exotics, I'd run, fast. Back in the day, our insurance policy to detail exotics wouldn't even be covered by a 200 charge, haha. That said, if you're just getting the car polished, that should probably be <200. There's not much correction that needs to be done here (unless they cut into the clearcoat and really messed up). It's going to be a 2 hour job... so it shouldn't cost too much. If you want to get it waxed afterwards, either do it yourself or then pay extra for it... but the actual fix isn't going to break the bank. Good Luck!
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:27 PM
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OH, DBS600, you said that the guy had a bad attitude when you brought it back to him. May I ask how the conversation went? What was he detailer's defense? I'm always curious how shop owners respond to customer issues. Everyone is human, we all make mistakes and in the grand scheme of things, there are a lot of other important things in life that deserve our attention. BUT I'd expect them to take my concern seriously and find a way to resolve it, especially if they have such a good reputation... it really doesn't make sense that it would turn out like this (with you getting into an argument), did you speak to the shop owner or was it "just" the detailer?
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:47 PM
coole65i coole65i is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs600 View Post
Yes, stupidly.

Thoughts on repair?
You will need to get "paint correction" from a pro. Your detailer used a buffer that spun way too fast and basically marred the clear coat. Just thank the stars that the hack didn't burn through the clear coat where the only recourse is to repaint.

Now that you have learned your lesson with a cheapo detailer, please take my original advice and take it to someone who knows what they are doing. It's now going to cost you a bit more because your paint is in worse condition than before. Detailer's Domain, Detailer's Domain, and Detailer's Domain.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:48 PM
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Agree. Thats not from car washing but from bad rotary buffer technique.
You know, it's pictures 4 and 5 that are throwing me off... They seem to be too wide, like they were using a 12" pad or something (which makes no sense), otherwise, I'd expect them to look narrower and finer, rather than the swirls/scratches taking on wide swaths of clearcoat--it would actually be very laborious to create that w/ just a rotary and if they did (ie, it's not been washed at all), then wow, I'm speechless.

The first three are definitely rotary (though even those have some swirl marks too), but then it might have been made worse by a bad wash. If the car's not been washed since the detailing and this cropped up, then wow. If it has been washed then it'd be good to know how, that will also help in diagnosing what kind of correction is done and at what cost. I'm more curious at this point really.

Also, seems like the OP wanted to minimize future maintenance to the paint, so I'd always start with the washing method first.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:28 PM
AdamG13 AdamG13 is offline
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Typical hologramming covered with glaze. I've seen much worse, though. Hit up a paint correction specialist on the detailing forums of Luxury4Play.com and you can find one in your area. Alot of the detailers on there are top notch. I agree that it's going to cost >500 since it's going to take at least 2 stages of polishing - one coarse grade to take the crap out, another fine grade to shine it up to normal. In my experience, you should only let the mobile detailers wash and wax your car - no claying or polishing. The majority of detailers absolutely suck when it comes to polishing, as very few seem to know how to handle a rotary well - and a random-orbital polisher will take them too long. It's like going to Super Cuts and expecting a decent hair cut - maybe one out of every 36 employees knows what they're doing.

The detailers BMW dealers seem to use are generally just as bad as any random craigslist detailer out there. The only dealer I even let wash my car is Rusnak, as the others out there just have some unskilled dudes with hoses and dirty rags doing one car after another. Some SA's have even advised me against letting their guys wash my car since it's black. Starting to get angry about BMW service again so I'm going to call it quits on this post...haha
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:34 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is offline
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Thanks for the input and support everyone. Embarrassing, but I figured I'd post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aom7 View Post
The polishing will take care of the swirl marks (and again, make sure they use a random orbital, not a rotary) and make sure they don't put any glaze or wax when they are done (you WANT to see what it looks like raw).

Before you make payment, wash a panel, in the shade--never in direct sunlight (cloth diaper, fresh clean bucket of water, dishwashing soap, like palmolive from top to bottom.. you can just use bottled water too. I use one set for the top half of the car, then another for the bottom half, but for this purpose, you don't have to, just wash the top half of a panel. Dry with another clean cloth diaper and see if any swirls/marks are present. If not, then you're golden, if so, then they need to redo or they lied and did use some kind of glaze).

There's not much correction that needs to be done here (unless they cut into the clearcoat and really messed up).
Very good info! So polishing should take care of this? I don't think they cut into the clearcoat. Is there any way to tell from photos? How can I tell in person?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aom7 View Post
You said that the guy had a bad attitude when you brought it back to him. May I ask how the conversation went? What was he detailer's defense? Did you speak to the shop owner or was it "just" the detailer?
I spoke with the owner, who's one of four or so workers on site. I see he's generally "short" with customers, but some very expensive cars are worked on (Bentleys, Porsches, Lamborghinis and a nearby Audi dealer uses the shop to prep new and used cars).

Convo went something like this: I showed him the damage, he said "yes", I said "yes!?" and said "you told me this wouldn't happen". He didn't say much, looked around the car and said "you have to wax the car once a month". I said "I've never done that with any of my cars and specifically asked if this would happen and you said no". He said "there's not much to do". I said "ridiculous" and asked "what needs to be done to fix this?" He said "repaint". I snapped and said "what did you say(!?), I didn't bring my car to you only to have to repaint it; you're going to pay for that!?" There was another customer with a 911 GTS onlooking and the owner started walking away! I said "you want to make this into a problem!?", "everyone I know who uses you is going to know about this" and drove off. I've since told three people, one of which said they the shop ruined a boat of theirs a couple of years ago by using the wrong wax!

Quote:
Originally Posted by coole65i View Post
Just thank the stars that the hack didn't burn through the clear coat where the only recourse is to repaint.
So it doesn't look like it's burned through the clear coat, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aom7 View Post
You know, it's pictures 4 and 5 that are throwing me off... They seem to be too wide, like they were using a 12" pad or something (which makes no sense).

The first three are definitely rotary (though even those have some swirl marks too), but then it might have been made worse by a bad wash. If the car's not been washed since the detailing and this cropped up, then wow. If it has been washed then it'd be good to know how, that will also help in diagnosing what kind of correction is done and at what cost.
I used the same camera in all five pictures; an iPhone, but, yes, the car has been washed by a local brushless carwash since the "detailing", which I've used for a long time and I believe to be good.

It's all really crazy as the shop (Skips Detailing in Woodmere, NY) has / used to have a very good reputation. I know it changed hands six or so years ago, but I'm just not happy at this point...

Last edited by dbs600; 05-30-2013 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:40 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is offline
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Originally Posted by AdamG13 View Post
Starting to get angry about BMW service again so I'm going to call it quits on this post...
Tell me about it; problems all around.

Another question for the board: Why does scratched paint / plastic form a circular lattice pattern from normal washing / wear (i.e.: regular washing without waxing of paint or piano black wood trim)?

Last edited by dbs600; 05-30-2013 at 08:43 PM.
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