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X3 F25 (2011 - current)
The latest X3 brings some added style and some new features to the BMW SUV family. Talk about the new F25 now!

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  #1  
Old 02-26-2013, 06:53 PM
bimmernut1 bimmernut1 is offline
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New X3 35i versus used Cayenne GTS

I'm normally a very decisive person but I've gone back and forth on this decision for months. I've been comparing a new X3 versus a 3-4 year old used Cayenne GTS. I actually put in an offer on a 2009 GTS but it sold the same day so I was back to square one. Finding a Cayenne GTS with the dynamic chassis control is very difficult. I saw maybe two for sale with this option out of hundreds. This was a "must have" option for me to buy a Cayenne.

It ended up being a good thing I could not find a Cayenne GTS because the more practical side of me had time to take over and I ended up buying a 2013 X3 35i today, black on black with the M Sport package. I'm supposed to get all the paperwork done tomorrow and pick it up this weekend. It was the color I wanted and has every option I wanted without having to wait to have it factory built. I had decided to forego the dynamic handling and head up display options; as fate would have it this one had neither.

The things that finalized my decision were:

1) For the same price or less I get an SUV that is just as fast as the GTS, but with a 4 year/50k mile warranty; few 09 Cayennes had the CPO warranty remaining.
2) The technology in the X3 is 4 years more advanced than the used Cayenne. I love the adaptive lights. See link below; very cool.
3) The 35i is plenty fast, and being turbo charged is easier to modify than a NA car.
4) Compared to the Cayenne, the 35i sort of flies under the radar; a wolf in sheep's clothing so to speak.
5) The X3 can use all season tires; the Cayenne GTS has 21" rims (odd and unusual size); no manufacturer makes all seasons for 21" rims; meaning I would need a summer set and a winter set of tires.
6) Gas mileage for the X3 was about 8 mpg better on the highway without sacrificing any performance.
7) I currently have a 06 X3 and it has been highly reliable; the X drive works great in the snow so I assume the new one will be even better.

Lastly, I decided I needed a nice birthday present this week so this was it. Assuming all the paperwork gets done I'll post photos later.

Forgive me if you've seen this video. It's a technology I think is cutting edge.

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Last edited by bimmernut1; 02-26-2013 at 08:23 PM. Reason: correction
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  #2  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:00 PM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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I agree. for more or less the same reasons, especially #1. Besides the better warranty on the BMW, just think about the expense to maintain a complex out of warranty Porsche. Moreover, I have always found the service at my local BMW dealer to be a more pleasant experience generally vs. my Porsche dealer. Porsche and BMW remain my favorite brands, but every time I think about my prior Porsche service experience, I buy BMW.

I prefer the very focused sporty dimensions of the X3 - the X3's under the radar Q ship persona is very hip. After an 8 week wait, I should be getting my 3.5 M Sport - carbon black/oyster in the next week or so. Btw after much deliberation, I did order dynamic handling but not heads up
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:29 PM
bimmernut1 bimmernut1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
I agree. for more or less the same reasons, especially #1. Besides the better warranty on the BMW, just think about the expense to maintain a complex out of warranty Porsche. Moreover, I have always found the service at my local BMW dealer to be a more pleasant experience generally vs. my Porsche dealer. Porsche and BMW remain my favorite brands, but every time I think about my prior Porsche service experience, I buy BMW.

I prefer the very focused sporty dimensions of the X3 - the X3's under the radar Q ship persona is very hip. After an 8 week wait, I should be getting my 3.5 M Sport - carbon black/oyster in the next week or so. Btw after much deliberation, I did order dynamic handling but not heads up
Sounds like a nice setup you have coming. I went back and forth on the DH but could not get a straight answer from any dealer on the impact of DH on the torque that could get shifted to the front wheels. They said it makes the X3 more rear wheel drive biased but I wanted to know if the same percentage power as the non-DH setup could be directed to the front if needed. I probably would not have turned the deal down if the X3 I found had it, but it wasn't a deal breaker for me because of the lack of clarity i had on how it operates.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:07 PM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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I understand - most frustrating, I could never find a 3.5 with DHP at a dealership that I could drive. I ordered mine based on reading lots of prior posts on Bimmefest and Bimmerpost...I hope.....

BTW I did look at a new Cayenne - and I found it very appealing but in the end my X3 was a better fit in terms of my needs and desires. I must admit, it's fun to think about the X3's 0- 60 time vs. the Cayenne - given the X3's 0-60 time of 5.5 seconds is way faster than a Cayenne V6, faster than a CayenneS, and is only 1/10 a second off the GTS' 5.4 0-60 time.

I jus' luv besting a Porsche! Vroomm!
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:39 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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Yes but it doesn't have a stick like the Cayenne GTS or V6. And of course its not a Porsche. You will enjoy your BMW X3 for all the above stated reasons. Better mileage, better warranty, better 0-60 times, etc. But, you will always find yourself looking at the Porsche's -- not the BMW's. BTW the pre '11 Cayennes are vastly better off road than any of the BMW X cars -- but who would ever take their pristine Cayenne off road anyway? Enjoy your new ride.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:05 AM
bimmernut1 bimmernut1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleJ View Post
Yes but it doesn't have a stick like the Cayenne GTS or V6. And of course its not a Porsche. You will enjoy your BMW X3 for all the above stated reasons. Better mileage, better warranty, better 0-60 times, etc. But, you will always find yourself looking at the Porsche's -- not the BMW's. BTW the pre '11 Cayennes are vastly better off road than any of the BMW X cars -- but who would ever take their pristine Cayenne off road anyway? Enjoy your new ride.
Thanks a lot. I'm sure I'll enjoy it. As far as missing the Porsche, I currently have a 79 911SC and a 96 C4S, so I won't miss the Cayenne too much. I've had the SC for 29 years.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:10 PM
BruceOmega BruceOmega is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmernut1 View Post
Sounds like a nice setup you have coming. I went back and forth on the DH but could not get a straight answer from any dealer on the impact of DH on the torque that could get shifted to the front wheels. They said it makes the X3 more rear wheel drive biased but I wanted to know if the same percentage power as the non-DH setup could be directed to the front if needed. I probably would not have turned the deal down if the X3 I found had it, but it wasn't a deal breaker for me because of the lack of clarity i had on how it operates.
I wasn't aware that Dynamic Handling could impact the shifting of torque between front and rear axles. My understanding is Dynamic Handling addresses the damping (or is that dampening) of the suspension.

Does the xDrive work differently for vehicles with and without Dynamic Handling?

Bruce
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  #8  
Old 02-27-2013, 02:20 PM
cadman50 cadman50 is offline
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the OP's comment about the adaptive headlights and video makes me wonder if mine has them. I have a 2012 35i with most options except Msport but I do have SAP. I remember reading about my adaptive headlights but don't recall if they do all that was in the video. Is that something new for 2013 or 2014? I like the way the headlights turn in the direction of the steering. Never thought I would until I got it. and the automatic high beam option was absolutely worth the $250.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:21 PM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleJ View Post
.... And of course its not a Porsche.....
Ha Ha ...guess I got lucky!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmernut1 View Post
Thanks a lot. I'm sure I'll enjoy it. As far as missing the Porsche, I currently have a 79 911SC and a 96 C4S, so I won't miss the Cayenne too much. I've had the SC for 29 years.
A well maintained classic 911 is truly special but two classic 911s? - sorry to inform you that you are displaying the symptoms of "verum fanaticus" Most likely your illness manifests itself in obsessive compulsive maniacal behavior....do you find yourself irresistibly drawn to howling at the full moon? I understand...my sickness took the form of a modded 930 for many years...I still back slide at times and muse about the "perfect" 993 Turbo - my antidote - a quick foray in my M3. Thank you BMW.

I am sure my coming X3 will provide an equally satisfying driving experience in its own inimitable BMW way - I am really looking forward to its arrival! I know you just got yours - initial thoughts?
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:31 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmernut1 View Post
I'm normally a very decisive person but I've gone back and forth on this decision for months. I've been comparing a new X3 versus a 3-4 year old used Cayenne GTS. I actually put in an offer on a 2009 GTS but it sold the same day so I was back to square one. Finding a Cayenne GTS with the dynamic chassis control is very difficult. I saw maybe two for sale with this option out of hundreds. This was a "must have" option for me to buy a Cayenne.

It ended up being a good thing I could not find a Cayenne GTS because the more practical side of me had time to take over and I ended up buying a 2013 X3 35i today, black on black with the M Sport package. I'm supposed to get all the paperwork done tomorrow and pick it up this weekend. It was the color I wanted and has every option I wanted without having to wait to have it factory built. I had decided to forego the dynamic handling and head up display options; as fate would have it this one had neither.

The things that finalized my decision were:

1) For the same price or less I get an SUV that is just as fast as the GTS, but with a 4 year/50k mile warranty; few 09 Cayennes had the CPO warranty remaining.
2) The technology in the X3 is 4 years more advanced than the used Cayenne. I love the adaptive lights. See link below; very cool.
3) The 35i is plenty fast, and being turbo charged is easier to modify than a NA car.
4) Compared to the Cayenne, the 35i sort of flies under the radar; a wolf in sheep's clothing so to speak.
5) The X3 can use all season tires; the Cayenne GTS has 21" rims (odd and unusual size); no manufacturer makes all seasons for 21" rims; meaning I would need a summer set and a winter set of tires.
6) Gas mileage for the X3 was about 8 mpg better on the highway without sacrificing any performance.
7) I currently have a 06 X3 and it has been highly reliable; the X drive works great in the snow so I assume the new one will be even better.

Lastly, I decided I needed a nice birthday present this week so this was it. Assuming all the paperwork gets done I'll post photos later.

Forgive me if you've seen this video. It's a technology I think is cutting edge.

Congrats.

Points of interest.
If you wanted a curve hugger, why did you opt out for the DHP?

But regardless, a new German car is better than an 4 year old german car....even though its a Porsche,
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:36 PM
bimmernut1 bimmernut1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceOmega View Post
I wasn't aware that Dynamic Handling could impact the shifting of torque between front and rear axles. My understanding is Dynamic Handling addresses the damping (or is that dampening) of the suspension.

Does the xDrive work differently for vehicles with and without Dynamic Handling?

Bruce
It also impacts the torque to the axles. Your last question is the one I could not get a straight answer on. Normally without DH, the torque split is rear/front 60%/40%. It can shift as much as 100% to the front if needed. Now if you read the description of DH on the BMWNA website, or here (ZDH option):

http://www.automobilemag.com/am/99/2...s_options.html

it says "maintains rear-wheel-drive-oriented torque split". What is meant by "maintains"? Does that mean it will no longer shift up to 100% of the torque to the front under certain situations? According to another link I found, x-drive already can move 100% to the rear under certain conditions. (See link below). Where I live, I need the AWD capability more so than the rear wheel orientation. Since I couldn't get a firm answer even from the dealers, I skipped the option.


http://www.awdwiki.com/en/xdrive/
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:44 PM
noka noka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmernut1 View Post
It also impacts the torque to the axles. Your last question is the one I could not get a straight answer on. Normally without DH, the torque split is rear/front 60%/40%. It can shift as much as 100% to the front if needed. Now if you read the description of DH on the BMWNA website, or here (ZDH option):

http://www.automobilemag.com/am/99/2...s_options.html

it says "maintains rear-wheel-drive-oriented torque split". What is meant by "maintains"? Does that mean it will no longer shift up to 100% of the torque to the front under certain situations? According to another link I found, x-drive already can move 100% to the rear under certain conditions. (See link below). Where I live, I need the AWD capability more so than the rear wheel orientation. Since I couldn't get a firm answer even from the dealers, I skipped the option.


http://www.awdwiki.com/en/xdrive/
I could be wrong but from some reading I have done, my sense is that X-drive is X-drive and it works basically the same. With DHP, the rear bias is maintained longer, perhaps partly due to the ability to shift power between rear-axle wheels (I think it's referred to as "Performance Control"). If that doesn't do the job to stabilize the vehicle, then X-drive further adjusts power between front and rear axles, as it would without the DHP and Performance Control. Keeping the bias towards the rear wheels longer provides the typical BMW sportier handling characteristics. That's my take on it anyway.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:03 PM
Want the Thrill Want the Thrill is offline
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Here are some explainations right from BMW's website:

Dynamic Damping Control.
How do you want to drive today? With Dynamic Damping Control, the BMW X3 adapts to meet your every wish: with the press of a button, you can activate any one of a range of settings and change the driving characteristics of your BMW X3.
More
Press the Driving Experience Control button next to the gear select lever and change from COMFORT to SPORT, or even to SPORT+. The engine responds more spontaneously, the eight-speed automatic transmission Steptronic lets the rpm go higher before each fast and precise gear shift. The suspension becomes stiffer and sportier.

Dynamic Damping Control uses data collected by sensors throughout the BMX X3: each second, it gathers thousands of readings about the position of the steering wheel, the strength of lateral forces, wheel rotation speeds and much more. The system calculates the best possible setting for each individual wheel and continually adjusts its suspension accordingly. The BMW X3 hugs the road through tight bends and still provides a comfortable, safe ride for all occupants.

Dynamic Driving Control is an option available with Dynamic Damping Control, with eight-speed automatic transmission Steptronic, or with variable Sports steering.



Dynamic Performance Control switches power between the left and right rear wheels to stabilise the vehicle within milliseconds and help increase traction and lateral acceleration. Handling is lighter and more precise during normal as well as difficult driving conditions.

How Dynamic Performance Control works can best be described in canoeing terms: if you want to turn right when canoeing in the main current, you can brake using the paddle on the right side of the canoe. This is how most common electronic stability programs work. Alternatively, you could use the paddle powerfully on the left side of the canoe in order to have more control in progressing forwards and turning right. This is the principle behind Dynamic Performance Control.
It links the standard rear differential with a mechanical planetary gear set and an electronically controlled multi-plate clutch for each rear wheel. Its mechatronical system combines informatics, electronics and mechanics to process complex data such as the yaw rate, wheel speeds, steering angle and engine torque so that it can react immediately: when required, the system ensures that drive power distribution to the rear wheels can be freely varied and increased on either side as needed. The power distribution can also be displayed on the onboard computer.
Dynamic Performance Control increases directional stability when accelerating out of bends and provides the driver with extra support when dealing with difficult driving conditions. Before under- or oversteer can take place, lateral guided force is used to keep the vehicle on track. Precise steering significantly increases driving comfort and safety.
Dynamic Performance Control is also effective when the vehicle is coasting - when the driver removes their foot from the accelerator - or when they have pressed the clutch pedal. If the rear wheels are on different types of surfaces, Dynamic Performance Control improves traction by supplying more drive power to the wheel with more grip. A wheel torque difference of up to 1,800 Nm can be actively created between the left and right rear wheels. This increases driving stability and allows for much faster acceleration.
As a logical progression to the xDrive all-wheel drive system, Dynamic Performance Control can be matched to all drive concepts and engines. Whereas xDrive variably controls the power distribution between the front and rear axles, Dynamic Performance Control intelligently distributes power between the two rear wheels. This results in precise handling whatever the driving conditions.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:13 PM
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Where's the info about DHP?
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:37 PM
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I have found BMW variable suspension settings to be very desirable and worth every cent. My concern with DHP is the "variable sport steering". A few years ago I had a 335i convertible with every option including variable sport EPS - in a word - a mess. I never knew what the front tires were doing - consequently I found myself constantly having to make corrections with little feedback - all this was not very BMW-like - the hydraulic steering in my M3 is sublime. As most know here, more recent reviews of standard BMW EPS have been mixed - to be kind. Unable to find a demo X3 3.5 with DHP I had to rely on reviews - frustrating and scary. Surprisingly, there has been a paucity of professional reviews focusing on X3 3.5 M Sports with DHP. The few pieces I have read have been favorable. Most posters here on Bimmerfest have strongly recommended the system. Recently I drove a Porsche 991 with EPS and it was very satisfying - somebody is getting it right - I hope my new X3 3.5 with DHP is endowed with a modicum of this feel and precision. I feel like I am driving fast blind into a corner....I hope my fellow festers got this one right! I will find out soon enough - dealership called this evening - they expect my car tomorrow.
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:13 AM
BruceOmega BruceOmega is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmernut1 View Post
It also impacts the torque to the axles. Your last question is the one I could not get a straight answer on. Normally without DH, the torque split is rear/front 60%/40%. It can shift as much as 100% to the front if needed. Now if you read the description of DH on the BMWNA website, or here (ZDH option):

http://www.automobilemag.com/am/99/2...s_options.html

it says "maintains rear-wheel-drive-oriented torque split". What is meant by "maintains"? Does that mean it will no longer shift up to 100% of the torque to the front under certain situations? According to another link I found, x-drive already can move 100% to the rear under certain conditions. (See link below). Where I live, I need the AWD capability more so than the rear wheel orientation. Since I couldn't get a firm answer even from the dealers, I skipped the option.


http://www.awdwiki.com/en/xdrive/
Interesting. Just finished reading the description of Performance Control on the X3 at the BMW USA web site and agree, it is not clear.

I can't remember what the web site had on this specific aspect back when we were researching and ordering our 2011 (F25) 35i, but there was definitely a lack of clarity on the various options back then. Too bad issues still exist today; e.g.,
- The stand alone Dynamic Handling Package does not explicitly state that Dynamic Damper Control is included, although it would be illogical to not include DDC
- The M Sport package lists Dynamic Damper Control in its contents

FWIW, back when the F25 first came out, there was a big question of whether engaging Sport mode made any changes to the suspension if the vehicle did not have dynamic dampers. Eventually figured out the answer was no. Would have been helpful if BMW's information was more explicit and / or have a BMW rep participate in discussion forums like this one.

Bruce
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Last edited by BruceOmega; 02-28-2013 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:19 AM
BruceOmega BruceOmega is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Want the Thrill View Post
.....
Dynamic Performance Control switches power between the left and right rear wheels to stabilise the vehicle within milliseconds and help increase traction and lateral acceleration. Handling is lighter and more precise during normal as well as difficult driving conditions .....

It links the standard rear differential with a mechanical planetary gear set and an electronically controlled multi-plate clutch for each rear wheel .....
I think this is a feature of the X6 but not the X3. If I am reading the web site correctly, the X3 can have Performance Control but not Dynamic Performance Control.

Bruce
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:09 PM
bimmernut1 bimmernut1 is offline
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I've done a little research on the Intelligent Headlights in the video and here is my take. They are not available, at least up to MY 2013 on the X3. Maybe it will be available on the 2014.

To get this "intelligent" function you need two things:
1) Adaptive headlights (lights turn as you corner) which is available on the X3
2) Automatic High Beams (option 5AC on the 3 series)

Option 5AC doesn't show up in the options list for the X3. For the 3 series, the cost is only $250.

So it appears the X3's lights at best can be semi-intelligent. I didn't check other models but I bet option 5AC is available on the 7 series as well.
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:23 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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The tech in the video is for the LCI 7 w/ LEDs. I doubt we will see them offered on anything below a 5 anytime soon. Possibly next complete update of the x3.

The x3 has auto high beam assist however unfortunately it comes w/ the DAP for $2100. Not really worth it IMO. The tech Is good for interstates and rural to suburbia where the roads are straight, and poorly lit but if you frequent cities or densly populated areas then the tech is more a gimmick for techies.

Note:
5 LCI will have led, and the sensor for which this tech operates on is already present on the pre-LCI 5
7 LCI w/ full led guaranteed
6 has led option but not too sure about the intelligent beam pattern assist in the vid
X6.x5&6m have led but don't have the necessary f infrastructure necessary for the sensor
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:31 PM
dilbagh dilbagh is offline
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The 2014 X3 has the automatic high beams as a stand alone option for $250.
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  #21  
Old 02-28-2013, 06:43 PM
bimmernut1 bimmernut1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
The tech in the video is for the LCI 7 w/ LEDs. I doubt we will see them offered on anything below a 5 anytime soon. Possibly next complete update of the x3.

The x3 has auto high beam assist however unfortunately it comes w/ the DAP for $2100. Not really worth it IMO. The tech Is good for interstates and rural to suburbia where the roads are straight, and poorly lit but if you frequent cities or densly populated areas then the tech is more a gimmick for techies.

Note:
5 LCI will have led, and the sensor for which this tech operates on is already present on the pre-LCI 5
7 LCI w/ full led guaranteed
6 has led option but not too sure about the intelligent beam pattern assist in the vid
X6.x5&6m have led but don't have the necessary f infrastructure necessary for the sensor

thanks.
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Old 03-01-2013, 04:12 PM
j & j j & j is offline
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Location: New Mexico
 
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Mein Auto: 2013 X3 28i
Bimmernut1,

You are living my dream, which is to walk out each day to my 7-car garage and struggle with the decision between driving the M6, the Carrera S Cabriolet, or if it spitting a little rain or snow, maybe the X6 with the M sport package, or the Cayenne GTS. Congratulations on your new X3. You are very fortunate indeed to have such cool cars.

We have finally achieved my bimmer/beamer only garage.....ain't a Porsche, but I can still look back over my shoulder at my ride and grin.
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2010 535i Neptune Blue, Nevada Oyster
1999 K1200 RS Red
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:59 PM
bimmernut1 bimmernut1 is offline
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Thanks J&J. I agree. I'm definitely thankful for what I have. Life is short so we need to enjoy it while we can.

Nothing wrong with a BMW only garage. I've always been a German car enthusiast and can really appreciate the engineering behind both Porsche and BMW.

I got to see my new X3 today. I pick her up in the morning. Carbon Black with black interior. My local dealer did not have what I wanted so I took a day off work and drove 7 hours to the dealer that had one. Spending the night in a hotel then it's pickup and drive back tomorrow. There's nothing like that first dirve back with a new or used car. I'm sure it would be more enjoyable in Fall rather than Winter but it is what it is.

Seven car garage? I can see you putting the days of the week over each door to help you decide.
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:11 PM
bimmernut1 bimmernut1 is offline
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Well I made it back home with the new X3. I'm going to like this acceleration. I only averaged 24 mpg on the 450 mile trip because I varied the rpm several times for break in rather than just setting the cruise on 70 the whole way. I still kept it below 4000 rpm but several times I would slow down to 50 then switch it to manual and accelerate back up to speed using the paddle shifters. I'll put another 750-1000 miles on like this before I see what she will do.

Took a photo about halfway through the trip.
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1996 Porsche Guards Red 993 C4S
2003 BMW Ti Silver M5
2013 BMW X3 35i Carbon Black M-Sport
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  #25  
Old 03-23-2013, 09:46 PM
Dehcho Dehcho is offline
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Location: Sidney, Bc Canada
 
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Mein Auto: 2006 Cayman s
I have a 1983 911 SC which I purchased off of the second owner, he owned it for 26 years, wonderful cars!!! Just had the top end overhauled for the infamous head studs, upgraded the tensioners and added the pop up valve. It's Chiffon White, chocolate interior. It was originally purchased at Vasek Polak in California, really enjoy driving it, I also have a 2006 Cayman S and to be honest I find the SC more engaging.

Just about to pull the pin on an Msport..

Is there a cure for this sickness?

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Last edited by Dehcho; 03-24-2013 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Spelling
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