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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #51  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L0F View Post
what I would like to know is the factory stated standard operating temperature..
I'm not sure how much applies to the M52, but for the record, we covered the M54 & M62 (thermostat) temperatures in this thread:
- What is the temperature of the coolant & when the thermostat opens under normal conditions (1)


Here is the cooling system flow through the M52 engine:
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Last edited by bluebee; 03-12-2013 at 10:42 PM.
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  #52  
Old 03-13-2013, 05:17 AM
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This interesting description was on the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie528iT View Post
The nipple on the expansion tank is not an overflow tube.

The other end is connected to the radiator via the nipple on the top of the LH/hot radiator tank. The hose goes under the top of the radiator shroud to the nipple on the hot tank. As far as I can work out its a continuous bleed from the hot tank to the expansion tank to remove any air trapped in the top of the radiator.

If you take off the cap you will see coolant flow from the hole in the side of the filler neck. What happens when the cap is in place is one of those questions I haven't been able to work out. The hole exits into the neck between the 2 O rings on the cap. I haven't got around to cutting open an old radiator cap to find out.

You will notice the top radiator hose has an S shaped section between the bleed nipple and the radiator. This is to stop air trapped in the radiator tank from getting back into the head etc.

I have also cut up my old expansion tank to see what is inside. I don't have the level sensor switch (low level instrument panel and you need the high level panel and the "I" data bus etc) but its a Hall Effect switch which is triggered by the magnet on the level float.

I think the cover in the other half of the tank is just a stilling arrangement to stop the coolant level sensor from being activated by water flow from the auxiliary water pump.

Its operating all the time to ensure enough water is pumped through the heater because of the unusual cooling system flow through the head and block. The M52TU and M54 engines cooling systems are completely different to the earlier single vanos M52 engine which has a conventional cooling system arrangement.

They use a minimal water flow through the block with maximum precisely controlled water flow through the head. At high engine speed and load the aux water pump is needed to ensure adequate flow through the heater as most of the water flow is back to the radiator. There is a PDF on one of the E46 boards which explains how it works but I can't find it right now.

Also don't remove the radiator cap if the engine is hot. Apart from the risk of scalding you can end up with air trapped in the system and then its back to square one and the cold bleed process all over again. How do I know? Been there and done that!

Also don't open any of the bleed screws with the engine hot or cold after you have successfully bled the system. All you will do is let air back into the system. You can test this with the engine cold. Take off the radiator cap and check the coolant level then undo the top radiator hose bleed nipple and observe the water level rise in the expansion tank as air enters the top hose and the water finds its own level in the system.

You now have air in the system and have to do the cold rev bleed procedure to bleed the system again. The normal level in the expansion tank is below the water level in the top hose. The water level in the top hose and the engine block, head etc is held there by a sort of siphon effect and opening the bleed screw destroys this and allow air to enter the system.
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  #53  
Old 03-13-2013, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I'm not sure how much applies to the M52, but for the record, we covered the M54 & M62 (thermostat) temperatures in this thread:
- What is the temperature of the coolant & when the thermostat opens under normal conditions
Early m52's use a mechanical 92* thermostat, so there's no question about when it starts to open.
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  #54  
Old 03-13-2013, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefwej View Post
Would not any temp/pressure assumptions would be different based on altitude?
The values that JimLev posted are gauge pressures. That is pressure above atmospheric pressure. To get absolute pressure you would need to add the local barometric pressure at the time he made the readings.

I think the gauge pressures should be the same regardless of the local barometric pressure (or altitude). Since the system is closed, I assume the temperature readings would also be the same.

Bluebee's conversions seem to be correct. The different conversion factors are related by standard atmospheric pressure, 14.696 psi. If you add the value of the first conversion factor to the second, you'll get the standard pressure value (14.504 + 0.192 = 14.696).
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  #55  
Old 03-13-2013, 05:16 PM
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I just realized, from Aussie528i's post below ... that the fluid flow through the expansion tank is DIFFERENT for each of these four E39 engines;
1. M54 expansion tank fluid flow
2. M52TU expansion tank fluid flow
3. M52 expansion tank fluid flow
4. M62 expansion tank fluid flow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie528iT View Post
Bluebee,
There are a number of different threads on the board so maybe they need to be combined. I have read many of them and there are some quite divergent views about the cooling system components and how they work. Many don't understand that the M52 and M52TU engines are completely different animals. It probably would have been better if BMW had called the M52TU the M54 and the M54 the M54TU. The M52TU has much more in common with the M54 than with the M52. The fact that the M52TU has a throttle cable but is still "fly by wire" seems to cause confusion as well.

Regards
RonR
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  #56  
Old 03-14-2013, 07:35 PM
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Ill be picking up one of these sooner or later and pointing a handful of friends to do so as well.

Also ill just leave this here for further discussion.
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  #57  
Old 03-16-2013, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *****zo View Post
Alex, I did not say I was part of the consensus and yes, I still run a 1.4 bar cap. going on 3 yrs now. I have not noticed issues with losing coolant.
Robert and all,

I just found a small leak in my coolant system, this explained why I've been loosing coolant slowly. The 1.4 bar cap is not the culprit of my coolant lose.

Last edited by 16valex; 03-16-2013 at 05:17 AM.
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  #58  
Old 03-16-2013, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16valex View Post
Robert and all,

I just found a small leak in my coolant system, this explained why I've been loosing coolant slowly. The 1.4 bar cap is not the culprit of my coolant lose.
Thanks for the update, Alex.

It is interesting to learn that BMW has reverted to using a lower pressure cap on some of the newer cars.
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  #59  
Old 03-25-2013, 05:26 PM
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One question arose in a different thread today about the REVERSE of the venting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdl View Post
Radiator caps usually have a one way check valve to allow air into the system if pressure falls below atmospheric. I assume the BMW cap does too.

Keep in mind that there is always air plus water & EG vapor in the top of the expansion tank. When the system cools overnight from the temperature during the bleeding process the vapour contracts which reduces pressure, perhaps below atmospheric at which point the cap's check valve opens to allow air to enter and equalize pressure. If the check valve doesn't operate properly, the rad hose collapses. The effect would be magnified if the bleed isn't complete and there is another air pocket in the head or cabin heater circuit.

I think this effect is the reason that many people report having to add a bit of coolant the next morning after bleeding the system. Once that 2nd small fill is done the system is stabilized to ambient temperature and no further addition is needed (at least we sincerely hope
So, I ask: Does the GAS 1.2 bar cap (or the original 2-bar cap) have such a check valve?
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  #60  
Old 03-25-2013, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
So, I ask: Does the GAS 1.2 bar cap (or the original 2-bar cap) have such a check valve?
Yes, The G.A.S. 1.2 bar cap uses all brand new BMW internal components that have been recalibrate to vent at 1.2 bar, and the OEM cap has a negative pressure check valve that opens during cool down if the cooling system pressure drops below atmospheric.

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  #61  
Old 03-26-2013, 05:40 AM
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It has been known by most that the temperature gauge on the E39 is "dampened" such that the needle on this gauge will remain approx. dead center over a range of coolant temperatures, but to now know that this range is 75 degrees-113 degrees C is ridiculous in my mind. I can see BMW wanting owners to feel safe and not get overly excited about needle swings up or down, but I think if the gauge was not dampened to this degree, we might be able to observe trends in our cars before they become "critical". Most that have reported sudden over-heating state that one minute the gauge was dead center and then all of a sudden it shot up to "pegged" at the over-heated end and they were trying quickly to find a place to immediately pull-over. I believe if BMW trusted owners to be able to see what is really going on temperature-wise on our cars, we could decide for ourselves whether we need to take proactive action based upon driving our cars everyday and getting used to "what is normal". I just love that BMW feels a need to protect us from reality! "WE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"-says Jack.
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  #62  
Old 03-26-2013, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
I think if the gauge was not dampened to this degree, we might be able to observe trends in our cars before they become "critical".
So true. A few months ago my gas mileage started deteriorating but I attributed it to the colder temps. After a while I noticed that my temp gauge had moved slightly (about 1/8 ") to the left of centre so I unlocked my display to check the actual coolant temp, it ranged between 68-70 deg C. Once I changed my thermostat the coolant temp bounced back to 95-97 deg C and my mileage improved by 20%.

I can only guess how much gas I wasted before my temp gauge finally let me know that something was wrong. Now that I know just how much damping is on the gauge (almost 30 deg C) it seems more like an ornament than a source of info. I'll be unlocking my display on a regular basis from now on.
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  #63  
Old 03-26-2013, 10:29 AM
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Would there be any interest in a nice looking supplemental digital gauge that connected to the OEM sensor? Where do think it should mount, and what do you think it would have to be priced at to be a viable selling product?

Just curious because I don't have enough on my plate right now.

Gary
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  #64  
Old 03-26-2013, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary@germanautosolutions View Post
Would there be any interest in a nice looking supplemental digital gauge that connected to the OEM sensor? Where do think it should mount, and what do you think it would have to be priced at to be a viable selling product?

Just curious because I don't have enough on my plate right now.

Gary
Interesting proposition, Gary. I think I would like to place a gauge like that in the opening for the Foglight switch and then relocate the FL near the seat heater switches somehow.
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  #65  
Old 03-26-2013, 11:00 AM
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The "real" temp gauge would be nice to have. Fitting might be an issue to make it "standard". I use fog light switch, so I would not buy it if it's made for that spot. Maybe something that clips to the center vent, or the driver's "A" pillar?

Where are you with the new CCV?
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  #66  
Old 03-26-2013, 12:06 PM
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Nice idea. How about using the space where those plastic things that BMW calls "cup holders" sit? There could be 2 thin digital readouts, one for the coolant temp and one for (say) oil pressure or voltage.
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  #67  
Old 03-26-2013, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary@germanautosolutions View Post
Would there be any interest in a nice looking supplemental digital gauge that connected to the OEM sensor? Where do think it should mount, and what do you think it would have to be priced at to be a viable selling product?

Just curious because I don't have enough on my plate right now.

Gary
Gary, what would be really neat would be to have an actual coolant temperature readout WITH a user adjustable set point for an audible alarm. I am not aware that there is anything that BMW gives us that is readily audible that tells us that there is "coolant over-temp" except maybe the ding we hear when DIC says it is 37 degrees outside or the trunk lid is open. It could be easy to not hear if the radio is on and if you happen to not be scanning the dash every minute as you drive, your window to pull-over and shut of is a matter of how quickly you happen to see either the gauge move-up or see the coolant over-temp message. With at least your heads on the line if you fail to shut down your car quickly enough, you would think BMW would want us to have as much "heads-up" as possible. Or, would they rather give us the least warning as automotive engineering can supply so that we melt our heads and must buy more parts and labor from BMW. No one hear thinks BMW would engineer-in the likely hood of a melt-down by dampening the gauge to uselessness and then only providing a visual warning at the very last minute to help us save our investment. A real digital gauge with an adjustable alarm temp. that either lights a bright as hell LED or makes a high-pitched squeal or both. I have thought of building such an alarm since buying the car.
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  #68  
Old 03-26-2013, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
adjustable set point for an audible alarm.
How about in stead of doing a full gauge set-up that would need a visible mounting location and an audible alarm, just making an add on audible alarm with an adjustable or fixed set point? Maybe a beeping style output for a mild overtemp situation changing to a solid alarm at a more critical temp?

Gary
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  #69  
Old 03-26-2013, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary@germanautosolutions View Post
How about in stead of doing a full gauge set-up that would need a visible mounting location and an audible alarm, just making an add on audible alarm with an adjustable or fixed set point? Maybe a beeping style output for a mild overtemp situation changing to a solid alarm at a more critical temp?

Gary
Gary, you are absolutely right and would make the whole deal easier to make and could be hidden under the dash somewhere. Perfect, as we can always get digital temp. from the DIC if we hear the adjustable alarm start to go off. You could adjust up a little at a time until you know it is set for say 110 degrees centigrade. I'll buy the first one. all you need is three wires- GND, +12VDC, and temp input. You researching how to access the temp. input wire in the best manner would be great and with a full 12VDC available to the buzzer, it could be damn loud!

Make it adjustable with small CB pot.

Bill

Last edited by 540iman; 03-26-2013 at 12:36 PM.
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  #70  
Old 03-26-2013, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
Gary, you are absolutely right and would make the whole deal easier to make and could be hidden under the dash somewhere. Perfect, as we can always get digital temp. from the DIC if we hear the adjustable alarm start to go off. You could adjust up a little at a time until you know it is set for say 110 degrees centigrade. I'll buy the first one. all you need is three wires- GND, +12VDC, and temp input. You researching how to access the temp. input wire in the best manner would be great and with a full 12VDC available to the buzzer, it could be damn loud!

Make it adjustable with small CB pot.

Bill
I'll buy the second one...
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  #71  
Old 03-27-2013, 08:11 AM
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And I'll buy the first CCV.
Realistically: how long do you think until it's ready? Or: realistically, there isn't a good solution in sight as of yet?
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  #72  
Old 03-27-2013, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
And I'll buy the first CCV.
Realistically: how long do you think until it's ready? Or: realistically, there isn't a good solution in sight as of yet?
I still am 100% convinced and committed to the current design concept. The main problem has been the success of the other G.A.S. products and the lack of human resources to ease some of my load so that I can devote serious time to the CCV.

I just received our second FDM rapid prototype for fitment testing. The mounting location is very constrained and it's been a challenge to juggle the dimensions to allow easy access to removing the cap for servicing the unit. Once the physical dimensions are worked out I can make a real functional prototype for testing.

As far as the human resources issues goes; our engineering intern has postponed finishing his degree and is now working here full time to help move things along (although I share him with my partners engineering firm). I'm also currently interviewing accounting applicants to take over my accounting responsibilities, which will free up even more of my time. Long term prospects for having a lot more design and engineering time look good, but short term is still a problem due to tax season and getting the new personnel up to speed.

We are also looking at the prospects of purchasing a new live tooling 4-axis cnc lathe in the fall. It would be a big asset in machining a lot of the CCV parts as well as some of our other current products. Rest assured that the CCV will go into production with or without the new lathe. The new lathe will just lower the production times and cost.

We have a bunch of REALLY good product ideas in the pipeline, just not enough people right now to help see them to fruition. Once a few more products are on line, the cash flow will help allow us to bring additional people on board. We have 3.5 really good design people right now, so further personnel additions will probably be machinists.

I'm sorry this has been dragging on for so long, please do not get discouraged or think that there is a lack of commitment on our end to see the product through.

Gary
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  #73  
Old 03-28-2013, 08:01 AM
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Thanks Gary. I will try to stretch out the usability of the CCv I have in the car then. Hopefully it will last until your unit is out. I'm not worried about that thing freezing, now that we're in March.
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  #74  
Old 03-28-2013, 10:01 AM
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  #75  
Old 03-28-2013, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary@germanautosolutions View Post
Would there be any interest in a nice looking supplemental digital gauge that connected to the OEM sensor?
Where do think it should mount, and what do you think it would have to be priced at to be a viable selling product?

Just curious because I don't have enough on my plate right now.

Gary
Yes...!


Gary,
Ever think about making a better/ less complicated Coolant Expansion Tank...?

Doru,
Love the new expansion tank cap...!
I am seriously considering purchasing one, since I need to buy Gary's Disa Valve Repair Kit as well, and I noticed that the cap can come as a package deal with the Disa Kit...
Or, I might just get the OEM E30 1.4 bar cap, which looks identical to the OEM E39's cap...

Thanks!
Jason
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