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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 / F36 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #51  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:56 AM
OBS3SSION OBS3SSION is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
One main requirement on pure electric car is a charging station at home, for most US apartment renters that is a big challenge. The BMW i3(and probably future i5 and such) on the other hand has a range extender version that is rumored to use a small air-cooled 2 cyclinder engne(from motobikes) to charge the batteries. That, and other cars like Volt, seems to be more practical than pure electric cars.
Good point. But I think you'll start seeing apartment and condo complexes integrating charging capabilities in the near future. Especially the higher-end places, and especially in more urban areas. It would be a positive selling point: Now you see places advertising "free heat and hot water". Soon it will be "free EV charging stations."

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Originally Posted by Moatsy View Post
The infrastructure problem is the grid... not nearly enough electrons to replace half of the carbons burners on the road today.
Well, most of the charging would take place at night, when demand on the grid is lower and there is plenty of capacity left from the generating plants anyway. You may just find that as more and more EVs are on the road, the power plants don't cut back generation as much at night.

Besides, do we look at this in a short-term or long-term point of view? If we shun EVs because they are "too new", "use too much electricity", or whatever, we will never build up a better power-generating infrastructure. In the long term, if we don't begin the migration to EVs, we will run out of fossil fuel. With China, India and other countries sucking more and more oil, plus the demand the rest of the world is already creating, we're going to run out of the stuff. And we're not talking about centuries from now... we're talking about decades from now!

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Originally Posted by HugH View Post
No oil changes, no broken belts to replace, no mufflers, no change of anything. Brakes and tires and what else? As far as batteries, they are covered for 8 yrs and they have been lasting much longer on the Toyotas. In my case, I get bored driving the same car for over 3 yrs. If this car turns out so great, I'd be trading it for the next version as soon as it comes out, or for a competitive car by different manufacturer...BMW? Battery... no problems!
Indeed!

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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Good points. At 4600+lbs, I do wonder how many miles typical Model S drivers can squeeze out of those 21-inch performance tires, which are probably $2k+ for a set of 4.
I don't see any difference between the Tesla and any of those so called premium SUVs that weight the same or more and have the same "dubs" on them.
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  #52  
Old 03-28-2013, 11:58 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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I was all for testing the S model until I sat in one, and it was too big. If they build a smaller family sport sedan, all electric, and for a little less money, it will be on top of my shopping list in a few years.
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  #53  
Old 03-30-2013, 04:39 PM
sunilsf sunilsf is offline
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Once I'm in the market for a $50K car (still stunned that a new 3-series wagon with a few options will run this much, but a bit off-topic), I'm inclined to just get a Tesla with a 60kw battery... probably cost around $77k before tax credits which will bring it down to $67K. For me, this is probably a year out which works out well... both Edmunds and CR will have had their cars in their fleet for a year and so I'll get a sense of potential issues and Tesla will have worked out any issues on their end.

I love the idea that someone started an American car company from the ground up, and has a compelling offering!

The S is a bigger car, but I thought it handled like an E39... sizable, but moves like a smaller car and damn quick.
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  #54  
Old 03-30-2013, 08:44 PM
cblandin cblandin is offline
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As much as it sometimes pains me to admit it...electric or extended range electrics are definitely the future. 8 months ago I sold my E39 M5 with only 69k miles on to lease a Chevy Volt...a year ago I would have mocked me for that decision! The most compelling feature isn't the fuel savings, it is that electric is so ridiculously smooth it makes everything else feel a bit crude. Of course the paltry 35 gallons of fuel I've used over the last 8700 miles doesn't hurt. ;>
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  #55  
Old 03-31-2013, 12:36 AM
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mr_clueless mr_clueless is offline
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As much as it sometimes pains me to admit it...electric or extended range electrics are definitely the future. 8 months ago I sold my E39 M5 with only 69k miles on to lease a Chevy Volt...a year ago I would have mocked me for that decision! The most compelling feature isn't the fuel savings, it is that electric is so ridiculously smooth it makes everything else feel a bit crude. Of course the paltry 35 gallons of fuel I've used over the last 8700 miles doesn't hurt. ;>
GM is losing money on every Volt that they sell.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In...really-cost-GM
How sustainable that is and whether costs can be controlled moving forward is anybody's guess.

For example, Google pulled the plug on its solar project.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/...pulls-the-plug
They have some of the smartest people, so if they couldn't figure out the economics, it's probably something non-trivial.

In the mean time, gasoline and diesel continue to make strides. I don't know that we'll see electric go mainstream even for another decade.

I like natural gas a lot more...don't know why that isn't a more mainstream option.
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  #56  
Old 03-31-2013, 09:16 AM
cblandin cblandin is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
GM is losing money on every Volt that they sell.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In...really-cost-GM
How sustainable that is and whether costs can be controlled moving forward is anybody's guess.

For example, Google pulled the plug on its solar project.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/...pulls-the-plug
They have some of the smartest people, so if they couldn't figure out the economics, it's probably something non-trivial.

In the mean time, gasoline and diesel continue to make strides. I don't know that we'll see electric go mainstream even for another decade.

I like natural gas a lot more...don't know why that isn't a more mainstream option.
The article on GM's Volt cost has been debunked repeatedly. The article takes the R&D costs and amortizes it over just the Volts sold to date - goofy! Minimally, that means every Volt sold lowers the number...as does every future use of this tech in other GM products. It is no different that saying "If Apple spends $500M developing the iPhone 5, on the first day when they sell the first one for $400 that phone cost them $500M." R&D costs are spread out over time. Given that virtually every other automaker has or is introducing plug-in hybrids of one sort or another (including BMW with the upcoming i3), I'd say this tech is moving forward pretty steadily now. As an aside, BMW hired several of the Volt creators away to work on the i3. While sales are still modest GM did pump 25K Volts out the door last year.
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  #57  
Old 03-31-2013, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cblandin View Post
The article on GM's Volt cost has been debunked repeatedly. The article takes the R&D costs and amortizes it over just the Volts sold to date - goofy! Minimally, that means every Volt sold lowers the number...as does every future use of this tech in other GM products. It is no different that saying "If Apple spends $500M developing the iPhone 5, on the first day when they sell the first one for $400 that phone cost them $500M." R&D costs are spread out over time. Given that virtually every other automaker has or is introducing plug-in hybrids of one sort or another (including BMW with the upcoming i3), I'd say this tech is moving forward pretty steadily now. As an aside, BMW hired several of the Volt creators away to work on the i3. While sales are still modest GM did pump 25K Volts out the door last year.

The link I posted was one of the articles debunking the original claim, but it still acknowledged they are loss-making. Your analogy is not a good one. Apples iPhone was immediately profitable with the first model. But people ate that cost...the original iPhone was $600 (with the contract) and the battery barely lasted a day.

Electric cars are not there yet. I live in an apartment with no access to easy charging. Even on the road there is no access to easy charging. When the range of an electric car is 300-400 miles, and when it takes 15 min to charge the car at any gas station, then I might consider one. I believe we're a decade or more away from something like that happening.
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  #58  
Old 03-31-2013, 12:28 PM
HugH HugH is offline
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@ Mr_ clueless "I like natural gas a lot more...don't know why that isn't a more mainstream option."

So do I, but there are many reason why it's not a more mainstream option. Price, look at the Honda Civic, the only car that runs on natural gas. Weight of the gas tank to hold the compress gas is another. Gas stations would've to come up with around $10,000 for each pump plus gas storage, etc.

GM is supposed to come out with a dual fuel truck but last I heard the MSRP will be around $12,000 over a regular single fuel truck.

In our city, most school busses use natural gas. In Ft Worth, city busses do so and the savings are tremendous right now. As with any energy, prices fluctuate wildly...

As far a GM losing money for each Volt. Toyota lost even more for each Prius they sold during the first few years of their introduction. Look at them now!

When diesel fuel comes down to the price of low octane, I'll consider one again. In '81 I purchased a Maxima Diesel and loved it. Not long after, the fuel tax for diesel went up
and so did the gallon price at the pump. I kept that car for many years and never had any problems with it.
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  #59  
Old 04-02-2013, 07:24 AM
cblandin cblandin is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
The link I posted was one of the articles debunking the original claim, but it still acknowledged they are loss-making. Your analogy is not a good one. Apples iPhone was immediately profitable with the first model. But people ate that cost...the original iPhone was $600 (with the contract) and the battery barely lasted a day.

Electric cars are not there yet. I live in an apartment with no access to easy charging. Even on the road there is no access to easy charging. When the range of an electric car is 300-400 miles, and when it takes 15 min to charge the car at any gas station, then I might consider one. I believe we're a decade or more away from something like that happening.
The Apple example was fictitious, but you get the point about R&D amortization. I agree electric cars aren't there yet, which is why I think GM was so far ahead of the curve with the Volt. For "most" folks it works w/o all the drawbacks of a battery only EV. Ultimately, the Volt's success is what appears to have motivated BMW to offer the "range extender" (i.e. motorcycle engine powered generator) option. 87% of my driving is on the battery to date and if I ever run out (pretty often) it switches to the gas engine powered generator seamlessly - best of both worlds.
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  #60  
Old 04-02-2013, 08:36 AM
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mr_clueless mr_clueless is offline
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The Apple example was fictitious, but you get the point about R&D amortization..
I do get the point about amortization, but something is not economically viable if it doesn't get to profitability within a normal product cycle. Technology in these areas is changing so rapidly, that, while the lessons learned from technology of today may be useful, it probably won't exist in its current form in a few years.
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