Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > M Series > E90/E92/E93 M3 (2008+)

E90/E92/E93 M3 (2008+)
The latest and greatest V8 powered M3!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 07-28-2009, 06:01 AM
Dave 330i's Avatar
Dave 330i Dave 330i is offline
The King of Common Sense
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 92
Send a message via Skype™ to Dave 330i
Mein Auto:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt_OH View Post
1. It ISN'T about 22lbs. It's about why the coupe isn't 200lbs lighter. Isn't the coupe SUPPOSED to BE sportier? Or is it just LOOK sportier, but BE slower (which it is)?

2. It is ALSO about if the LB diff between coupe and sedan on 335 is 22lbs, then if the M3 coupe has a carbon roof, then shouldn't the LB diff on M3 coupe vs sedan be GREATER than the LB diff on 335 (no carbon roof on coupe)?!

3. If you don't think 1.7" matters, perhaps you should read all the crap put out by auto manufacturers about 10mm ride height reductions with their multi-thousand dollar sport suspensions. It matters a BUNCH. That's ~3% reduction in height and corresponding CG reduction.
1. I suspect the coupe is quicker and faster because of better aerodynamics, not that it weighs less. Where does the "200lbs" come from? Did you arbitrary made that number up?

2. You got me confused for a while when you used "LB" instead of "weight". Fact: carbon fiber roof is 44 lbs less than a coupe with moonroof. That tells me the coupe weighs more than the sedan if it had a metal roof. I suspect that the coupe chassis is reinforced (more structural weight) somewhat to get the stiffness of the sedan?

3. I agree with you here. Mfgs use sophisticated ways to lower the car height and its CG. Maybe 17" wheels would be best for the M3? It would offer lower height, less weight, better aerodynamics, less unsprung weight, quicker turning response, but you won't get Rommel to agree because he is bitching about the speedometer inaccuracy.
__________________
Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. Albert Einstein

Swim upstream. Go the other way. Ignore the conventional wisdom. If everybody is doing it one way, there’s a good chance you can find your niche by going exactly in the opposite direction", Sam Walton.

Last edited by Dave 330i; 07-28-2009 at 06:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-28-2009, 07:14 AM
akh23456 akh23456 is offline
Registered User
Location: New Jersey
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 25
Mein Auto: M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 330i View Post
1. I suspect the coupe is quicker and faster because of better aerodynamics, not that it weighs less. Where does the "200lbs" come from? Did you arbitrary made that number up?

2. You got me confused for a while when you used "LB" instead of "weight". Fact: carbon fiber roof is 44 lbs less than a coupe with moonroof. That tells me the coupe weighs more than the sedan if it had a metal roof. I suspect that the coupe chassis is reinforced (more structural weight) somewhat to get the stiffness of the sedan?

3. I agree with you here. Mfgs use sophisticated ways to lower the car height and its CG. Maybe 17" wheels would be best for the M3? It would offer lower height, less weight, better aerodynamics, less unsprung weight, quicker turning response, but you won't get Rommel to agree because he is bitching about the speedometer inaccuracy.
the performance in the e90 m3 vs e92 m3 are evenly matched. if your going to have a e90,e92 m3 vs e93 m3 the e90,92 m3 will win due to the weight of the convertible. i think he may have gotten that 200 because of the carbon fiber roof for the coups.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-28-2009, 08:47 AM
TLudwig's Avatar
TLudwig TLudwig is offline
Stuck in Monday
Location: Houston, TX
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,765
Mein Auto: 2009 M3
I do wish the E9X M3, and particularly the E92 M3, was a bit lighter, but I (and I suspect most others here) are having too much fun driving their cars to really worry about how much they weigh comparitively.
__________________
2009 Interlagos Blue E92 M3
2004 Silver Gray 330Ci ZHP (Sold)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-28-2009, 05:04 PM
Kurt_OH's Avatar
Kurt_OH Kurt_OH is offline
First Timer
Location: Columbus, Ohio
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 746
Mein Auto: Me: M3; Her: 335i
1. Coupe isn't ANY faster on a track; in fact, it's unlikely to keep up. From what others have posted here - I'll search for it if I get more interested, the sedan is actually SUPERIOR aerodynamically and structurally, and is thus faster in a track comparison.

2. I have no idea why the coupe would outweigh the sedan; whatever the rationalization, it is insufficient to make the ALLEGED sportiest version, the heavier/slower version.

3. Yea, the 200 lbs was just a shot in the dark by me, regarding the difference BMW SHOULD shoot for to make the coupe sportier than the sedan. I made it up and have read it no where else. I think that's enough weight reduction to impact acceleration, handling and braking. That's it.

4. I agree, they're a blast.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNate
I just love how a 4 year old car/design is STILL the benchmark which other automakers aspire to reach. Still winning comparisons . Still very much in the conversation. Is the E9x M3 a legend? You bet your @ss it is.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-28-2009, 06:24 PM
Dave 330i's Avatar
Dave 330i Dave 330i is offline
The King of Common Sense
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 92
Send a message via Skype™ to Dave 330i
Mein Auto:
Enough wild guesses. I got the E46 sedan because it came with 2 extra doors for free.
If I were to get a M3, I would get the coupe because it looks more appropriate for a sporty car, even though the sedan is probably more rigid and the doors slam more solidly.
__________________
Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. Albert Einstein

Swim upstream. Go the other way. Ignore the conventional wisdom. If everybody is doing it one way, there’s a good chance you can find your niche by going exactly in the opposite direction", Sam Walton.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 08-02-2009, 09:56 PM
Kurt_OH's Avatar
Kurt_OH Kurt_OH is offline
First Timer
Location: Columbus, Ohio
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 746
Mein Auto: Me: M3; Her: 335i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 330i View Post
If I were to get a M3, I would get the coupe because it looks more appropriate for a sporty car . . .
EXACTLY my point. Here I was burbling along, thinking the coupe was differently but not significantly better looking/styled, but significantly lighter/sportier, and therefore more desirable.

Turns out the coupe is a poseur!

Yes, it's hyperbole. Turns out it just really makes no performance difference. I thought (wrongly) the coupe would have a weight advantage, ESPECIALLY in the M3 w/cf roof.

I do still find it stunning that the M3, BMW's premier high performance car, is TALLER than the other 3 series.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNate
I just love how a 4 year old car/design is STILL the benchmark which other automakers aspire to reach. Still winning comparisons . Still very much in the conversation. Is the E9x M3 a legend? You bet your @ss it is.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-03-2009, 12:40 PM
Dave 330i's Avatar
Dave 330i Dave 330i is offline
The King of Common Sense
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 92
Send a message via Skype™ to Dave 330i
Mein Auto:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt_OH View Post
EXACTLY my point. Here I was burbling along, thinking the coupe was differently but not significantly better looking/styled, but significantly lighter/sportier, and therefore more desirable.

Turns out the coupe is a poseur!

Yes, it's hyperbole. Turns out it just really makes no performance difference. I thought (wrongly) the coupe would have a weight advantage, ESPECIALLY in the M3 w/cf roof.

I do still find it stunning that the M3, BMW's premier high performance car, is TALLER than the other 3 series.
So, are you going to get the sedan w/o the moonroof, and w/o all the high tech stuff and no bells and whistle to make sure your car is at the minimum weight? It's less expensive, stiffer chassis, and you get two extra doors for free.
__________________
Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. Albert Einstein

Swim upstream. Go the other way. Ignore the conventional wisdom. If everybody is doing it one way, there’s a good chance you can find your niche by going exactly in the opposite direction", Sam Walton.

Last edited by Dave 330i; 08-03-2009 at 12:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-03-2009, 02:37 PM
Kurt_OH's Avatar
Kurt_OH Kurt_OH is offline
First Timer
Location: Columbus, Ohio
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 746
Mein Auto: Me: M3; Her: 335i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 330i View Post
So, are you going to get the sedan w/o the moonroof, and w/o all the high tech stuff and no bells and whistle to make sure your car is at the minimum weight? It's less expensive, stiffer chassis, and you get two extra doors for free.
Nah, but I may keep talking about it because it seems to entertain you!

:-)

If I was choosing right now . . . E92 w/o sunroof, or E90 probably WITH just to keep my wife happy. I WOULD get DCT and technology package.

Doesn't matter; it's all academic: I'm not buying now.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNate
I just love how a 4 year old car/design is STILL the benchmark which other automakers aspire to reach. Still winning comparisons . Still very much in the conversation. Is the E9x M3 a legend? You bet your @ss it is.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-13-2009, 10:04 AM
artec540 artec540 is offline
Registered User
Location: St Louis, MO
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 44
Mein Auto: 135 i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt_OH View Post
In the 335i, there is 23lbs difference between coupe and sedan.

In the M3, there is 22lbs.

Seems to me that:

1. Coupes should have a GREATER weight advantage generally
2. M3 coupe should have GREATER weight advantage than 335, or what the heck is the point with that roof?


Separately, why does the BMW web site list the M3 as sitting almost 2" taller than the 335? Does that seem odd to anyone else here? Is that correct?

Not here to kick the M3: I LOVE them, and want one. Wife has 335i now, which is a very nice car.

I have no idea why the coupe would be taller but I know why it's likely to be heavier. The B-post in a sedan contributes a good deal of structural rigidity, especially torsional rigidity. If you take it away and leave a bloody great hole in its place, you have to add structure elsewhere in a search for the lost stiffness. That's why coupes and convertibles are almost always heavier than their parent sedans. It also doesn't help that the coupes nearly always have more equipment because they're aimed at the higher end of the market.

Note that rigidity.... stiffness.... and strength are not the same. Stiffness has to do with deflection and strength with ultimate failure. You often see descriptions of new models that talk about how the use of high-strength steels help increase stiffness.... it doesn't. The modulus of elasticity and of rigidity of high strength steels are the same as for mild steel.... or virtually the same, all steels vary a bit..... and deflection depends on those modulus figures, not ultimate strength.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-15-2009, 02:26 PM
elp_jc elp_jc is offline
Registered User
Location: El Paso, TX
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 84
Mein Auto: '08 E92 M3 6MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by artec540 View Post
The B-post in a sedan contributes a good deal of structural rigidity, especially torsional rigidity.
Coupes have one too. Where do you think the seat belts are anchored? It looks like doesn't have one, but it's behind the glass. The coupe might be slightly heavier because it's longer. The convertible NEEDS additional structural support, and THAT car is significantly heavier than both coupe and sedan. Good day.
__________________
'08 E92 M3 6MT, SSII/Black (moonroof), all options. MODS: black OEM muffler, ultimate aluminum pedals,
OEM black grilles, body-color gills, reflector delete, euro light switch, tint, black OEM 19s, ZHP lighted knob
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-15-2009, 06:07 PM
Dave 330i's Avatar
Dave 330i Dave 330i is offline
The King of Common Sense
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 92
Send a message via Skype™ to Dave 330i
Mein Auto:
sedan w/o fold down seats is much stronger than coupe.
__________________
Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. Albert Einstein

Swim upstream. Go the other way. Ignore the conventional wisdom. If everybody is doing it one way, there’s a good chance you can find your niche by going exactly in the opposite direction", Sam Walton.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-15-2009, 06:23 PM
TLudwig's Avatar
TLudwig TLudwig is offline
Stuck in Monday
Location: Houston, TX
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,765
Mein Auto: 2009 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 330i View Post
sedan w/o fold down seats is much stronger than coupe.
Indeed, but the differences were far more noticeable on the E46 than on the E9X.
__________________
2009 Interlagos Blue E92 M3
2004 Silver Gray 330Ci ZHP (Sold)
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-27-2009, 03:06 PM
SkullF16 SkullF16 is offline
Registered User
Location: NJ
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13
Mein Auto: 2010 MR E92 M3 Coupe
There are a lot of variables at play here, and the focus has been on only one (height of vehicle). Yes, 1.7" is significant. Maybe that led to the CF decision (assuming it was more than style). But the benefits of 18" or 19" wheels that have been mentioned as contributing to the height may more than make up for the penalty of the raising the CG. The point is the design of any vehicle is a trade-off, be it a car, bicycle or fighter jet. From the outside, we don't know the trade-offs the engineers made to produce what most people describe as a fantastic car. So if it is a little taller, who cares? And if it does bother you, don't get one. There are an awful lot of really good cars out there right now.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-27-2009, 04:42 PM
dalekressin's Avatar
dalekressin dalekressin is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Oshkosh Wisconsin
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,993
Mein Auto: 2010 M3
There are an awful lot of really good cars out there right now.
That's why I'm gettin the M3.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-28-2009, 10:42 PM
rehostman rehostman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 647
Mein Auto: 2007 X5 4.8i, 2009 E90 M3
__________________

Patrice
2009 E90 M3 Melbourne Red on Black Leather
2007 X5 4.8i Monaco Blue on Saddle Brown
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 10-01-2009, 12:38 PM
Minnesota M3 Minnesota M3 is offline
Registered User
Location: Southern Minnesota
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 69
Mein Auto: 2009 E92 M3
Thus far, everyone has missed an obvious reason why the coupe is heaver and taller than the sedan - because the coupe is the basis for the convertible (or vice-versa). The coupe is, basically, a convertible with the B-pillars and roof attached. It is taller because the base architecture for the convertible forces it to be a little taller. BMW isn't going to generate a separate body structure for the convertible given so few sales - it will modify something it already has (i.e., the coupe) for use to save money. The coupe is reinforced to also serve as the chassis for the convertible, so it is heavier and taller than it otherwise needs to be. That's not a complaint - it's a fact. The coupe has the CF roof in order to lower its CG to be more performance oriented. If it has the regular roof (and, god-forbid, a sun roof attached to it as well), it will be far less agile than it should be. The sedan has its own chassis, and that's why it is the way it is. If the coupe were made as a stand-alone chassis, it could be made far more potent than it already is, but since the vert' must come with it, there are compromises.
__________________
2009 E92 M3 - Jerez Black/Black, carbon leather, 6M, technology, convenience, premium, 19" wheels, USB/iPod, satellite radio, H&R springs, Vorsteiner front lip, carbon side gills, carbon kidney grills, Borla exhaust, UUC Evo3 SSK w/ DSSR, power pulley kit, clear bra
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10-01-2009, 07:41 PM
Kurt_OH's Avatar
Kurt_OH Kurt_OH is offline
First Timer
Location: Columbus, Ohio
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 746
Mein Auto: Me: M3; Her: 335i
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkullF16 View Post
But the benefits of 18" or 19" wheels that have been mentioned as contributing to the height may more than make up for the penalty of the raising the CG.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and call total BS on the whole tire size nonsense. I don't believe there's ANY appreciable difference in tire diameter or ride height irrespective of which factory tire you get on a new M3 (or any variant of any 3 series, within that same variant).
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNate
I just love how a 4 year old car/design is STILL the benchmark which other automakers aspire to reach. Still winning comparisons . Still very much in the conversation. Is the E9x M3 a legend? You bet your @ss it is.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 10-01-2009, 07:42 PM
Kurt_OH's Avatar
Kurt_OH Kurt_OH is offline
First Timer
Location: Columbus, Ohio
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 746
Mein Auto: Me: M3; Her: 335i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota M3 View Post
Thus far, everyone has missed an obvious reason why the coupe is heaver and taller than the sedan - because the coupe is the basis for the convertible (or vice-versa). The coupe is, basically, a convertible with the B-pillars and roof attached. It is taller because the base architecture for the convertible forces it to be a little taller. BMW isn't going to generate a separate body structure for the convertible given so few sales - it will modify something it already has (i.e., the coupe) for use to save money. The coupe is reinforced to also serve as the chassis for the convertible, so it is heavier and taller than it otherwise needs to be. That's not a complaint - it's a fact. The coupe has the CF roof in order to lower its CG to be more performance oriented. If it has the regular roof (and, god-forbid, a sun roof attached to it as well), it will be far less agile than it should be. The sedan has its own chassis, and that's why it is the way it is. If the coupe were made as a stand-alone chassis, it could be made far more potent than it already is, but since the vert' must come with it, there are compromises.
Wow, now that you've enlightened us, it seems so obvious!

Thanks!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNate
I just love how a 4 year old car/design is STILL the benchmark which other automakers aspire to reach. Still winning comparisons . Still very much in the conversation. Is the E9x M3 a legend? You bet your @ss it is.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 10-23-2009, 09:55 AM
550isport 550isport is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Connecticut
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 162
Mein Auto: 550i
The 550 sport sits a lot lower than the M5.

This doesn't mean it handles better? Personally the M ride heights along with the M bodywork look much more proportioned. The lowered ride heights of the 335 and 550 sport packs make the car look a bit "dropped", which from an aesthetics point of view makes the car look long and a bit squashed, like the regular car got stepped on. Just my opinion.

DRP

P.S. I would have expected the Ms to weigh much more than their 335 counterparts. Its the options that add to the weight and the Ms have all the options of the standard cars essentially plus beefier wheels, tires, brakes, larger (although very light) engine etc..

I've never driven one, but I have a friend overseas with an M3 CSL, he says its light years beyond a standard E46 M3 mostly because of the weight difference.

Would be nice to have a CSL edition here in the E92. It's the least BMW can do now that it cancelled it's F1 program...
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03-14-2013, 08:50 PM
Dave 330i's Avatar
Dave 330i Dave 330i is offline
The King of Common Sense
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 92
Send a message via Skype™ to Dave 330i
Mein Auto:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ffej View Post






Why are we arguing the merits of 22lbs difference on a car that weighs almost 2 tons, again?
And holy crap, put in a fat dude and compare that to my 155 lb, the 22 lb difference is meaningless.
__________________
Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. Albert Einstein

Swim upstream. Go the other way. Ignore the conventional wisdom. If everybody is doing it one way, there’s a good chance you can find your niche by going exactly in the opposite direction", Sam Walton.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 03-31-2013, 10:47 PM
CliffJumper CliffJumper is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Los Angeles, CA
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 616
Mein Auto: 09 M3 Sedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 330i View Post
And holy crap, put in a fat dude and compare that to my 155 lb, the 22 lb difference is meaningless.
I love the irony of "The King of Common Sense" digging up a 3.5 year old thread just to post this
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 04-03-2013, 03:38 PM
aznalan15 aznalan15 is offline
Registered User
Location: sf
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 58
Mein Auto: e36 328i e46 m3
Lol I am 145 lb I call it weight reduction mod.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 04-06-2013, 11:30 PM
Mar48 Mar48 is offline
Registered User
Location: MN
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5
Mein Auto: 08 STi/01 S2000 400whp
hmm really interesting info glad it was brought back from dead
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > M Series > E90/E92/E93 M3 (2008+)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms