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7 Series - F01 / F02 (2009 - current)
The new re-designed 7 series F01 / F02 leads off the BMW Fxx chassis code!

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  #1  
Old 04-17-2013, 09:12 AM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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Driving with DSC off DTC on?

95% of the time the car is fine in normal mode, Drive, Comfort. But sometimes I feel that the power cuts down too conservatively when I have an aggressive take off, or low speed turn. Sometimes it's a little dangerous when I'm trying to make a quick turn in front of traffic.

Does anyone drive with DSC off DTC on? I grew up in the age where cars were starting to get more powerful but didn't have DTC/DSC, so do have my (older) share of experience with rear drive no nanny driving. I lost the rear a few times (hey I was young - scariest being at 90mph+ on a long freeway banked sweeper), but can mostly correct oversteer, keeping my foot into the accelerator. But I want to start slow given that the 7 is much more powerful, larger and heavier.

Can someone share their experiences? I'm even considering if I need xDrive on my next car, since it seems that cars are starting to become too powerful for just 2 driving wheels. I live in Dallas, where by and large the weather is mostly fine, and adverse Winter weather only a handful of days a year. So I don't need 4WD for weather, and I have a bad weather car. I don't feel I would be comfortable driving with everything off even on perfect days if I were being more aggressive. Although come to think of it, that's how all cars were 30 years ago. Just that they usually did not have 400+ hp.
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Last edited by chrischeung; 04-17-2013 at 10:07 AM.
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  #2  
Old 04-17-2013, 09:53 AM
Kar Don Kar Don is offline
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agreed, I'm considering X-drive after not being able to use the power on the AH7. Curious what people's thoughts are, I've never driven in sport plus.
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  #3  
Old 04-17-2013, 11:41 AM
BaranE BaranE is offline
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I don't think you can drive with DSC off and DTC on. However you can drive with DTC off and DSC on which is usually how I drive. It lets mild drift and moderate slippage. That mode is actually called Traction (press the DSC/DTC button only once) and imho gives you best 0-60, sporty feel without too hard suspension settings.
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:57 PM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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I think you have it the wrong way around. From the manual:

Deactivating/activating DTC Dynamic Traction Control
Activating the Dynamic Traction Control DTC provides maximum traction on loose ground. Driving stability is limited during acceleration and when driving in bends.

Activating DTC
Press the button. TRACTION is displayed in the instrument cluster and the indicator lamp for DSC OFF lights up.

Deactivating DTC
Press the button again. TRACTION and the DSC OFF indicator lamp go out.


My understanding that there are 3 modes:
1. DSC on (in this case DTC is on since DTC is a part of DSC) - default
2. DTC on and DSC off - by pushing traction button once
3. DSC off (in this case DTC is off as well as part of DSC) - by holding traction button down for 10 seconds
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3/12 ED 7 - thread ID 610350
1/11 ED 6 - thread ID 5767556&postcount=175
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5/08 ED 4 - thread ID 290679
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  #5  
Old 04-17-2013, 01:03 PM
BaranE BaranE is offline
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Dude check your first post. This confirms what I said. You can't drive with DSC off and DTC on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
I think you have it the wrong way around. From the manual:

Deactivating/activating DTC Dynamic Traction Control
Activating the Dynamic Traction Control DTC provides maximum traction on loose ground. Driving stability is limited during acceleration and when driving in bends.

Activating DTC
Press the button. TRACTION is displayed in the instrument cluster and the indicator lamp for DSC OFF lights up.

Deactivating DTC
Press the button again. TRACTION and the DSC OFF indicator lamp go out.


My understanding that there are 3 modes:
1. DSC on (in this case DTC is on since DTC is a part of DSC) - default
2. DTC on and DSC off - by pushing traction button once
3. DSC off (in this case DTC is off as well as part of DSC) - by holding traction button down for 10 seconds
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  #6  
Old 04-17-2013, 01:54 PM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaranE View Post
You can't drive with DSC off and DTC on.
Why not? Did you read my Post 4? From the manual:

Activating DTC
Press the button. TRACTION is displayed in the instrument cluster and the indicator lamp for DSC OFF lights up.


Unless my understanding is incorrect, I'm taking "Activating DTC" to be "DTC on". And I undestand "DSC OFF lights up" means "DSC is OFF".

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...modelcode=137B - page 122 after downloading.
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3/12 ED 7 - thread ID 610350
1/11 ED 6 - thread ID 5767556&postcount=175
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Last edited by chrischeung; 04-17-2013 at 01:57 PM.
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  #7  
Old 04-17-2013, 02:00 PM
BaranE BaranE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
Why not? Did you read my Post 4? From the manual:

Activating DTC
Press the button. TRACTION is displayed in the instrument cluster and the indicator lamp for DSC OFF lights up.


Unless my understanding is incorrect, I'm taking "Activating DTC" to be "DTC on". And the "DSC OFF" lighting up means "DSC is OFF".
DSC is dynamic stability control, BMW's name for ESP. DTC is dynamic traction control BMW's name for anti slip regulation (ASR). They use the same indicator lamp on the cluster, however while DSC is ON and DTC is OFF indicated by the Traction mode, if you try to drive in the extremes and purposefully activate stability control you'll see it intervene. But you can get the tires to slip (DTC is disabled). The main purpose of this mode is to let you drive your way out of snow. You can slip your tires in deep snow to break lose and get some traction from the pavement under the snow.
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:12 PM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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How old is that? I suspect you are reading something that applies to older cars. Note there is a difference "DTC is OFF" and "DTC is disabled". In the case you have quoted, "DTC is disabled" also means that at that time DSC is off. It doesn't mean DSC is on (note they don't mention DSC is on in that case). It's the scenario of turning everything off (holding the Traction button for 10 seconds).

All my references are from the 2013 USA manual or current sites. Here's another link - http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...n_control.html

"the DTC can be activated by pressing a button and this allows more slip and reduces the DSC's curbing of the engine."

"The DTC also makes driving on snow and ice-free roads more dynamic. When activated, the DTC allows sporty drivers more room to manoeuvre around curves than the Dynamic Stability Control and even permits controlled drifts"
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3/12 ED 7 - thread ID 610350
1/11 ED 6 - thread ID 5767556&postcount=175
4/10 ED 5 - thread ID 453501
5/08 ED 4 - thread ID 290679
3/07 ED 3 - thread ID 201013
3/06 ED 2 - thread ID 136454

Last edited by chrischeung; 04-17-2013 at 02:21 PM.
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  #9  
Old 04-17-2013, 09:19 PM
Kar Don Kar Don is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaranE View Post
Dude check your first post. This confirms what I said. You can't drive with DSC off and DTC on.
Yes you can. Sport plus mode. Dsc off and dtc still on. Click up to sport plus and it will describe if you
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  #10  
Old 04-18-2013, 03:06 AM
BaranE BaranE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kar Don View Post
Yes you can. Sport plus mode. Dsc off and dtc still on. Click up to sport plus and it will describe if you
OK DTC in BMWs terminology means limited ASR regulation. It isn't the name for ASR. That makes sense. So normally you drive with TC not DTC.
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  #11  
Old 04-18-2013, 04:13 PM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaranE View Post
So normally you drive with TC not DTC.
This is a clarification, but may be what you are thinking. In the normal mode, the car is in DSC mode, not TC. I mean TC to be Traction Control as defined here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_control_system. The difference is that with cars generally, and this may differ slightly with BMW, in that DSC means the front wheels are also braked. This is often to counter understeer and make the car more stable with oversteer. With TC, or DTC in BMW's case, only the rear wheels are braked. Then if needed, power is also cut.

This is my understanding of what will help/save you:

Power oversteer - DSC first then DTC
Lift off oversteer - DSC (DTC won't help since there is no power to cut since you have already lifted off)
Understeer - DSC (DTC won't help since it only works on the rear wheels, and you need the front inner wheel to be braked)

So, according to what I think, if you drive with DSC off, DTC on, you need to correct or allow for cases of lift off oversteer, understeer, and less aggressive power oversteer. If someone knows otherwise, please share. I don't want to be driving in a scenario where I think the car will save me, but it won't.
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2012 ActiveHybrid 750i ED

3/12 ED 7 - thread ID 610350
1/11 ED 6 - thread ID 5767556&postcount=175
4/10 ED 5 - thread ID 453501
5/08 ED 4 - thread ID 290679
3/07 ED 3 - thread ID 201013
3/06 ED 2 - thread ID 136454

Last edited by chrischeung; 04-18-2013 at 04:21 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-19-2013, 04:35 AM
BaranE BaranE is offline
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This is the definitive answer.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Dynamic Stability Control.pdf (844.0 KB, 148 views)
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