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7 Series - E65 / E66 (2002 - 2008)
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  #1  
Old 03-31-2013, 09:09 AM
BMWbaffoon BMWbaffoon is offline
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Smoking 2006 750i

After 3 years, problem solved! All you smoking N62 V8 owners take heart in the following post. My smoke issue began long ago after waiting in the idling car with A/C on (during FL summer) for approximately 20 minutes. When I drove off there was a mushroom cloud of light grey smoke, which stopped after a little regular driving. This problem occurred anytime the car was warmed up, and encountered prolonged idling (long lights, traffic jams, etc.). Oil consumption has been high, but not obscene.
With 110K miles, I took the car to the stealership. They changed the CCV valve assemblies, which did not help. They further said that the engine would need to be torn down to replace the valve guides and valve stem seals. No Thanks! After discussing issue with my independent mechanic, he said to live with the embarrassment, and just add more oil. It’s cheap. The repair job is complex and expensive, and not worth it for a car with such mileage. He and others have reported that this engine is prone to this problem: the valve guides wear out quicker than the rest of the engine parts. Replacing the valve stem seals can help, but that job is extensive enough that you may as well go all the way and replace the guides, where the root of the problem lies – NOT TRUE IN MY CASE!
Yesterday, with renewed motivation to resolve the issue or replace the car, I conducted a simple test. I know oil is getting into the combustion chamber, and a lot of it when manifold pressure is low (i.e. at idle), so I went looking for causes upstream from the head. I removed, cleaned and reassembled the CCV valves. The orange rubber diaphragms were in good shape (confirming the stealership actually replaced them), but there was good cause for cleaning. I then removed the vent pipe, and it broke in my hand (see picture).

The pipe was dirty, and it contained fresh oil. Only the heavy insulation was holding the brittle plastic pipe intact. My probing figure then confirmed fresh oil in the intake manifold at the vent pipe opening (pictured below).


HERE IS THE TEST: I sealed this opening with a rubber boot from a bar stool leg (fit perfectly), and ran the engine at idle for ˝ hour with the CCV vents open on the top of the valve covers: NO SMOKE. I revved the engine after lengthy intervals and confirmed not a bit a visible smoke. The engine actually idles well (this is how pre-smog engines operated). The revving was a little rougher as the air meter sensor was removed and engine was sucking unfiltered air – but good enough to affect the test. In the picture below, you can see small amount of blow-by gases coming out of the CCV vents at a very normal rate, and rubber boot plug on the intake manifold.


Blocking the CCV vents with my thumbs for just a second confirmed the presence of slight positive pressure in the crankcase – normal. This test concludes that my oil burner was being supplied through the intake manifold, not the valve guides.
I’m not sure whether the stealership made a good or poor installation of the CCV diaphragms, but I recommend they be removed, inspected, and cleaned in this manner in regular intervals (such as oil changes). Also inspect the condition and seal of your vent pipe, and replace any of them that show any signs of deterioration (these are cheap parts - $55 vent pipe, $30 CCV diaphragms, and easily replaced by even a novice DIY). There’s more to the CCV System (cleaning vent channels underneath of valve covers, gaskets, oil separators in timing cases, etc.), but these are the weak links and they’re easy to get at.

If you conduct this test and have no smoke, it’s a crankcase ventilation system issue, not a valve guide or stem seal problem. Remember: the valve train, guides and related engine parts are advanced, highly-engineered pieces of German metal machinery; the entire Crankcase Ventilation System is a bunch of rubber and cheap plastic tubing. Common sense would indicate the latter has a far greater chance of failure. I plan to report again after monitoring rate of oil consumption. Bottom line: 160K and I will keep the car! Runs like a champ, and I never rode in a more comfortable car.

Thanks to all of you posters on various subjects that are informative, and have motivated me. -BMWbaffoon
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  #2  
Old 03-31-2013, 10:04 AM
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Wallace754 Wallace754 is offline
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Nice write up.
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  #3  
Old 03-31-2013, 10:04 AM
BuiltnBoostedZ BuiltnBoostedZ is offline
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Nice post. Thx.
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  #4  
Old 03-31-2013, 05:04 PM
JUBMW JUBMW is offline
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Nice job but I have to ask you think the others that had the same smoke problem this also would have help solve their problem?
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  #5  
Old 03-31-2013, 07:41 PM
BMWbaffoon BMWbaffoon is offline
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For DIY-ers who have been told they have bad valve guildes or valve stem seals (huge expense), this simple test can be done in the driveway in 1/2 hour and it's conclusive. I believe there are many more sucking oil in through the CCV vent pipe than there are engines requiring valve work.

thankx
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  #6  
Old 04-01-2013, 04:09 AM
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dolfan13 dolfan13 is offline
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I know it seems unrelated but Mustang owners have had a similar problem.I have not done much research on there fix but from what I understand the Mustang owners have devised a oil mist separator.Looks like what would be used on a paint system.
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  #7  
Old 04-01-2013, 06:08 AM
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02QTR28 02QTR28 is offline
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Bmw has a new design on this pipe with better insulation around it so it doesn't dry rot so fast! If I remember correctly its a 2 piece pipe now!!!
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  #8  
Old 04-01-2013, 06:37 AM
BMWbaffoon BMWbaffoon is offline
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thnaks, OTQ: That's good news. I've ordered the replacement and temporarily using old one bound by duct tape
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  #9  
Old 04-01-2013, 08:06 AM
Keif Keif is offline
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What is involved in doing the valve stem seals (a decent patch for the problem): DIY - Valve stem seal replacement - smoking / burning oil at idle
What is involved in replacing the valve guides and seals (repair the root cause): DIY - E65 Alpina B7 - Supercharger / intake manifold / valve cover / head removal

The issue in the above links is that the valve guides (brass, I think) are the sacrificial wear items surrounding the valve stem; they wear, get sloppy, and allow a little wobble in the valve -- there is a little blurb in TIS about measuring the amount of wobble, and what the tolerance is. According to the machine shop that I took the B7's head to (to press in new valve guides) it happens mostly on the exhaust valves because of their angle.

Replacing the valve stem seals alone is no small task - there are a few others here on the board who have done theirs as well; I think Rahulk is boxing his back up currently, or may have finished - but it's possible to do. If you have a lift and can drop the engine out the bottom you may be able to finish faster, otherwise no real words of wisdom here, it just plain sucks to do it.

I do truly hope you have luck with your fixes mentioned above; if not, I just wanted to give you information about what is involved and why you'd have a high shop bill. If you do have this issue, one approach could be buying an aftermarket warranty, just sucking it up and having it smoke until the warranty coverage begins, then having them fix it.
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  #10  
Old 04-01-2013, 12:02 PM
BMWbaffoon BMWbaffoon is offline
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Thanks. I reviewed that exact report on how to replace the valve stem seals prior to calling my mechanic. If you're removing the whole camshaft assemly to get at the seals, removing the heads themselves to replace the guides is not much more work. You can then do both with the heads off, and not have to worry about pressurizing the cylinders to hold the valves closed, or dropping retainers into the crankcase.

I see your point on how the exhaust side is more vulnerable as there's much higher temperature exposure on this side. There would not be, however, any oil burning associated from the wear in these guides as there is never vacuum on the exhaust guide to draw oil into the cylinder - only positive or equal pressure.

Unfortunately for me, I am also the victim of warranty scam: Warranty Direct...Beware. I hired a lawyer to pursue - not worth the cost. They are no longer approved to write insurance in Florida. They scammed everyone. I doubt they ever paid a legitimate claim.
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  #11  
Old 04-01-2013, 01:34 PM
ndcsucks ndcsucks is offline
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Fix?

I am not sure I understand the fix if the above is true? Are you suggesting to clean the CCV's or replace if torn?
How does cleaning the CCV’s stop the oil from getting up into the intake? Are the dirty CCV’s letting oil by that flows through the tubes to the intake?
What would happen if you where to cap off all three openings. Would the car run the same, but just not recirculate the gasses from the valve covers back into the intake? Or would the valve covers build up too much pressure?

Thanks.
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  #12  
Old 04-02-2013, 04:28 AM
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dolfan13 dolfan13 is offline
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Capping valve cover off would cause pressure to build I think,maybe blowing seals?Maybe could put an open vent with filter as in how most hotrods are setup.
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  #13  
Old 04-02-2013, 08:15 AM
ndcsucks ndcsucks is offline
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I hear ya... All that would happen is the blow by gas would not get reused... A little worse for the enviroment.

I get the small puff of blue when sitting at a light for a couple mins. I am willing to give this test a shot!!
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  #14  
Old 04-16-2013, 07:36 AM
525iT_Feen 525iT_Feen is offline
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This is useful information. My x5 has the same exact issue but the dealer performed the intermediate lever repair 15k before I bought it and had the heads out of the car. I saw that valve guides and all the eccentric shaft stuff was done but can't find a receipt for valve stem seals (which I can't see them not changing while they performed the other work). My hoses look old and brittle so reading this is someone of a relief. I ordered the hoses and valves and will be changing them tonight.

Thanks!
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  #15  
Old 04-16-2013, 07:51 AM
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First_745Li First_745Li is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 525iT_Feen View Post
This is useful information. My x5 has the same exact issue but the dealer performed the intermediate lever repair 15k before I bought it and had the heads out of the car. I saw that valve guides and all the eccentric shaft stuff was done but can't find a receipt for valve stem seals (which I can't see them not changing while they performed the other work). My hoses look old and brittle so reading this is someone of a relief. I ordered the hoses and valves and will be changing them tonight.

Thanks!
I love that X5!
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  #16  
Old 04-16-2013, 11:07 AM
bkc0508 bkc0508 is offline
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I really hope that fixes it for you. I just replaced the valve seals in mine and I can tell you from looking at the old seals and new the seals bmw used get really hard. You can do that same test by having the car running and you should have vacuum on the dipstick tube. This issue is not limited to just the 7 anything that has the n62 and n72 engine.
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  #17  
Old 04-17-2013, 06:27 AM
525iT_Feen 525iT_Feen is offline
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Reporting back

Quote:
Originally Posted by First_745Li View Post
I love that X5!
Thank you. I do too haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkc0508 View Post
I really hope that fixes it for you. I just replaced the valve seals in mine and I can tell you from looking at the old seals and new the seals bmw used get really hard. You can do that same test by having the car running and you should have vacuum on the dipstick tube. This issue is not limited to just the 7 anything that has the n62 and n72 engine.
Well like I mentioned before I'm almost 100% sure my seals were done when the heads were out for intermediate lever repair. With that said, I performed the work yesterday when I got home from work. I changed both hoses (with updated insulated BMW hoses) and both valves. The inlet to the intake was FILTHY and gunked up with oil which I cleaned out as much as I could. The hoses weren't brittle but were clogged with oil pretty bad. I warmed the car up for about ten minutes and it blew out quite a bit of smoke (left over) but after driving it around lightly last night and beating on it REALLY hard this morning I can happily say I think I With that said, I performed the work yesterday when I got home from work. I changed both hoses (with updated insulated BMW hoses) and both valves. The inlet to the intake was FILTHY and gunked up with oil which I cleaned out as much as I could. The hoses weren't brittle but were clogged with oil pretty bad. I warmed the car up for about ten minutes and it blew out quite a bit of smoke (left over) but after driving it around lightly last night and beating on it REALLY hard this morning I can happily say I think I conquered the problem (hope I didn't jinx that).

Thanks to AndreNY for sending me this thread and to BMWbaffoon for posting it. I will be sharing my experiences on Xoutpost because we have several members experiencing the same problem.

Part #'s I used:
11 61 7 547 186 x1
11 61 7 547 185 x1
11 12 7 547 058 x2

Labor Time: 10 minutes







Powerfoam works really well for getting oil and crud off engine covers FYI:
the problem (hope I didn't jinx that).
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  #18  
Old 04-17-2013, 08:04 PM
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M4XBMW7 M4XBMW7 is offline
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Good info here , might change mine just for preventive maintenance .
Pic above are for the new parts you bought ?
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  #19  
Old 04-18-2013, 05:32 AM
525iT_Feen 525iT_Feen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4XBMW7 View Post
Good info here , might change mine just for preventive maintenance .
Pic above are for the new parts you bought ?
The two top ones are the new parts and the hose right below is the old one.
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:58 PM
johndade johndade is offline
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How hard is it to change those hoses for a rookie diyer?
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  #21  
Old 04-20-2013, 11:00 AM
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First_745Li First_745Li is offline
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What did these parts cost? Here's the quote I got. Does it sound right?

Part #'s
11 61 7 547 186 x1 - $89.01
11 61 7 547 185 x1 - $89.98
11 12 7 547 058 x2 - $41.37/each

I think I'll call them on Monday when my contact is there for better pricing. Hold up... Those parts are for the 750... Oops!



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  #22  
Old 04-20-2013, 12:28 PM
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745iguy 745iguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johndade View Post
How hard is it to change those hoses for a rookie diyer?
They literally pop out and pop in, hardest to reach is under tb, and if ur swapping out the old Y hose u can cut it and when you use the new ones, they pop in place


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  #23  
Old 04-23-2013, 06:00 AM
525iT_Feen 525iT_Feen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johndade View Post
How hard is it to change those hoses for a rookie diyer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by First_745Li View Post
What did these parts cost? Here's the quote I got. Does it sound right?

Part #'s
11 61 7 547 186 x1 - $89.01
11 61 7 547 185 x1 - $89.98
11 12 7 547 058 x2 - $41.37/each

I think I'll call them on Monday when my contact is there for better pricing. Hold up... Those parts are for the 750... Oops!



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Sounds right to me. Thats what I paid and crap your right.

750:
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...30&hg=11&fg=15

I believe my numbers apply to 745s though.
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  #24  
Old 04-24-2013, 07:05 PM
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First_745Li First_745Li is offline
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I think it's the same part number


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Last edited by First_745Li; 04-24-2013 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:41 AM
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First_745Li First_745Li is offline
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