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E39 M5 (1998-2003)

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  #26  
Old 05-31-2013, 09:42 AM
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Ok, stock to stock: Stock E39 M5 vs. Stock E60 N54, the E39 M5 wins.

I appreciate the N54. I have an S52 in my M Roadster, and it screams... but the M5 is a tick faster even though the roadster weighs like nothing.
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2013, 02:09 PM
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Last edited by F1.tifosi; 07-12-2013 at 08:34 PM.
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  #28  
Old 06-25-2013, 09:49 PM
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ok bro no one here is talking about the N54... the person who came to ask was referring to the e39... one of the best built bmw of all time... which btw the feeling you get in an e39 cant be matched by an e60 no matter how much faster it is. we all know the n54 is probably bmws most moldable engine but... when you see an e39 m5 you just know its a special car and everyone who sees it knows its a special car... when you see a e60 535i... its just meh... any real bmw enthusiast will agree.
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  #29  
Old 07-01-2013, 09:28 PM
Punisher9113 Punisher9113 is online now
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Re: How to get an e 39 to out perform a e60

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
You have no clue WTF you are talking about.

I do agree that improving the 'air pumping efficiency' is the key to power.... but your suggestions demonstrate a deep ignorance as to the state of the art on the E39 M5.

A K&N cold air kit will LOWER performance. And exhaust adds NOTHING.

Short of a supercharger you cannot get at E39 to outperform at E60. Even a Dinan S2 wont do it.

Oh, 'synthetics'...please
Volumetric Efficiency is not the key to power, but merely the potential for power. Fuel and fuel delivery, and by that I mean a high flow fuel delivery system (fuel lines, pump, filter, regulator, and injectors. You would also need to reprogram the DME for the added fuel delivery efficiency. By then once you added the air intake, you will definitely pass the E60 but not a gas station.

Good luck though
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  #30  
Old 07-04-2013, 08:06 AM
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  #31  
Old 07-04-2013, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher9113 View Post
Volumetric Efficiency is not the key to power, but merely the potential for power. Fuel and fuel delivery, and by that I mean a high flow fuel delivery system (fuel lines, pump, filter, regulator, and injectors. You would also need to reprogram the DME for the added fuel delivery efficiency. By then once you added the air intake, you will definitely pass the E60 but not a gas station.

Good luck though
This might be fun...

So you are saying, just upgrade the fuel delivery system on th eE39- bigger "fuel lines, pump, filter, regulator, and injectors"- and change the DME to add more fuel ....and this will increase power?

Oh, wait- add a BS 'air intake'- and this will "definitely pass the E60"????????

Here is a hint: the DME drives the AFR to stochiometric, approx 14. Add more air and the DME will autiomatically add more fuel. Add an intake and the stock DME/stock fuel system has plenty of 'spare' fuel. Injector timing has more headroom at WOT redline. Increasing the fuel system and telling the DME to add more fuel will simply result in a rich running car and unburned fuel out the exhaust. (actually the DME would prevent this but I assume your magic programming would tell the DME to add fuel past stochiometric...)

You are absolutely clueless on this one.

But have fun with that.

A

PS Here's a comparison: Dinan takes the E39, adds a cold air intake- the BEST one there is...they add larger throttle bodies; they add headers, they add exhaust...the upgrade fueling via the DME...the BEST they can get is 470HP. I guess you are saying Dinan just needed to increase fueling instead of all that work they did on moving air?

They got LESS than an E60 M5.

So tell us boy genius, how would you do better?
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Last edited by ard; 07-04-2013 at 02:22 PM.
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  #32  
Old 07-04-2013, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F1.tifosi View Post
Dude, just answer me how many awards did the E39 M5 engine win? Go check and see on the N54..

Do you think the folks awarding are fools..

do you know how to read? go back and read what I wrote. I didn't say the N54 was bad did I? Personally I am in love with the N54. i plan on buying a 135 as my next car just because of how fun it is to mod... but my point is still e60s are left and right... and e39 M5 anyone who sees it will know its a special car. and again no matter how fast an e60 is it will not match the feel of an e39 m5. drive one and find out.
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  #33  
Old 07-05-2013, 06:06 AM
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Last edited by F1.tifosi; 07-12-2013 at 08:33 PM.
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  #34  
Old 07-09-2013, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
1. It still isn't an m5.

2. As the title of the thread asks, it doesn't not 'out perform' an e60 m5

3. It isn't an m5

100% correct!

First, you have to get that almost everything you read on here is someones opinion. Many of them are valuable but don't make the mistake of taking them as facts. Go drive some cars. The one that fits you just right will show up pdq. Don't drive just one, take some time and drive a couple of each model year you are interested in. That's the only way you will know what feels best and what you want.

I started with an E39 528 sport. I thought that was a great car, and it is, until you try to accelerate from 80 to much more than that. I drove an E39 540 sport. It was like a faster version of the 528.

Then, I drove an E39 M5 (and bought it!). To quote the guy from the show Wheeler Dealer when they did the 2000 M5 episode, "If there is one thing you do before you die, drive an M5!"

Words can not do justice to the thrill I get every time I get behind the wheel of my car. IMO, the opinion of the magazine gurus who tested them in 2000 and everyone I have met so far that owns one, the E39 M5 is the greatest blend of refinement and raw power that has ever been draped in the cloak of a family sedan. Seriously, it has 400 HP, 400 ft lbs of torque, gets to 100 as fast as a Corvette, and my wife drives it to Costco with two kids in the back.

The thing I changed on the car that made a tremendous difference is switching out to a UUC lightweight flywheel and kevlar clutch. The car was fast before, but the acceleration now is much quicker. So quick in fact that I had trouble for the first few weeks catching 2nd gear before I hit the rev limiter. It's impossible to get through first without smoking the tires, 2nd spins a little and third chirps easily.

There is nothing wrong with the E60 M5 unless you don't like the interior or the exterior. Those are the biggest complaints I have heard about the car.

As for starting with an M3 instead of buying an M5? That makes as much sense as a fat chick on a scooter. There isn't anything really wrong with it, but that doesn't make it right.

You can buy a 100K mile E39 M5 for $15K Get an inspection done by an independent shop that does a lot of M5 work or by someone who really knows the cars. The short list of things that can be wrong with the will set you back a couple of grand.

After you buy one join the M5board then go get the muffler delete done. You will be in love!

Oh, speaking of the M5board, go ask your questions there. Then you will get feedback from people who own and drive the cars.

Ken
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  #35  
Old 07-09-2013, 07:51 AM
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Oh, I forgot to mention, the guy who posted above me is smoking crack!

The E39 M5 has the S62 engine. My E39 M5 costs about $50K less than your 535 and drives much better! Do they even make that car in a stick? How do you float your clutch on a launch?

It says a lot about a car when Business week reviews it. It says even more about tit when they liken it to a 7 series but emphasis that it gets good gas milage. Those were never words used to describe the M5.

Bring your 535 to Greenville on the 20th. We are having a mountain run. It will give you a chance to see several M5's pulling away from you at once.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/usa...ntain-run.html
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  #36  
Old 07-09-2013, 04:05 PM
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Last week drove home from San Francisco, 380 miles, without stopping for gas. Averaged 24 MPG in the M5. I had 50 miles range left as I pulled into the garage.

I have a pic of the dash after resetting the CONS2 while coasting downhill... 98 MPG

Try that in the E60 M5.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:25 AM
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Very lively and interesting discussion here. To the OP question: how do you get an E39 M5 to walk on an E60 M5? The answer: buy an E60 M5. If you are only getting into this to be "faster than..." you are 1) potentially going about this all wrong and 2) will never be satisfied with an E39.

Here are the things to understand:
- the E39 M5 was - and sometimes still referenced as - the benchmark for high performance sedans for nearly a decade
- the 400hp that the E39 M5 lays down is still impressive and will embarrass a lot of newer cars
- with the exception of a few, most cars that can keep up with an E39 are modded...heavily
- the E39 M5 is 13 years old and has limited - expensive - performance options
- you don't buy an E39 M5 with the idea of "tuning" it

F1.tifosi's ride is an excellent example of an enthusiast taking pride in their car and pushing it to the limit. I have no doubt that, thanks to all his mods, he could quite possibly outpace an E39 M5. And at a cost of several thousand dollars, I can imagine he probably spared no expense in doing so. If I saw his car and it did indeed best my beast, I would nod, shake his hand and say, "That is an impressive machine!"

Would I be butt hurt? No. Would I be embarrassed? Not in the slightest. You know why? Because if I wanted to, I could 1) spend 5K and get a Stage 1 ESS KIT - 552hp/460tq (ESS supercharger) and show him and anyone else a thing or two about speed or 2) be proud that after all that hard work and thousands of dollars spent, a heavily modified car was just able to beat my entirely stock Beast.

rconner if you want to play the tuner game, then sure, get the E39 and plan to shell out an additional 7k for the supercharger (includes installation price). Oh and to play it safe, an additional $1500 to handle "general maintenance" to get the car up to factory tune if you are buying a used E39 M5 with a few lovingly extra miles on her prior to getting the supercharger put on.

If you want to say you have the fastest car, then consider some other options the non M5 guys are talking about. Just bear in mind, they don't drive M5's. They bought cars they could afford and are doing everything they can to give their cars the performance and power an M5 delivers. And I'm not being negative...that's the truth. And in many cases, after a lot of money, they now have cars tweaked to all hell that can keep pace with or best an M car. But believe me when I tell you, an M car is pure driving pleasure and no amount of mods or upgrades can replace that.

However, something not mentioned, the point of getting an M car isn't to mod it per se. It's to own a rare category of cars that have been tuned from the factory to be lucifer on wheels. These cars are mean, powerful, angry machines when they want to be but as tame as a lamb as needed. You buy an M car because you aren't trying to be like everyone else. 540. 535. 135. 335. 550. 330. Anyone can own those cars.

It's something special to say you drive an M: the most powerful letter in the alphabet.

Good luck with your decision rconner.

Last edited by Meltron; 07-10-2013 at 10:25 AM.
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  #38  
Old 07-10-2013, 08:34 AM
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And, figured I'd plug our group outing this coming Sunday if anyone happens to be in the Atlanta area and wants to meet other M enthusiasts. Weather permitting it should be a lot of fun. What up rrides!

Intown Atlanta ///M Lunch Meet n Eat



...

Last edited by Meltron; 07-10-2013 at 08:35 AM.
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  #39  
Old 07-10-2013, 10:55 AM
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Mel is right:

"It's something special to say you drive an M: the most powerful letter in the alphabet."

Although I think he made the alphabet business up!

You buy and drive an M5 because it is and that just speaks for itself. If it doesn't speak to you, you are not an M5 guy/gal. There is nothing wrong with that. It's just what's so. Clearly you should forgo the time and expense of owning one of these. Cars and driving them is an American pass time. Drive the car that makes you most happy and be proud of it because it is yours and that makes it special. What anyone else thinks is about as worthless as wearing a raincoat while pissing into the wind.

In 1988 I bought one of the first GSXR 750's imported into the country because it was an iconic step in motorcycle design. It was brutal to ride most magazine reviews called the body position compared to other race bikes of the day as maniacal but WOW!

It handled like a 250 two stroke and had the power of a 1000. There was nothing like ridding it. In 1990 I bought the new GSXR 1000. The power was almost uncontrollable and it was a lot of work making it handle nimbly but it was worlds of fun to rid.

The last bike I bought was an R1 when they first came out. I bought it for the same reasons I bought the other bikes. It was iconic. And brother, let me tell you, if I never ride another fast motorcycle again, the R1 was enough!

That is why I bought an E39 M5. It is an icon. It can't out pace some other cars in a straight line, it can't slalom as fast as a few others and it weighs to much so it chews up rear tires. But, it is exactly everything I want in a performance car. The power is huge and the handling is a thing of beauty! I can easily control a full power slide at 60 MPH through most corners smoking the tires in 3rd gear. With the muffler delete it sounds better than anything I have ever heard. Most importantly I grin like cheshire cat, strike that, way more than a cheshire cat every time I turn the key and feel the rumble. The driving experience just improves from there!
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  #40  
Old 07-10-2013, 08:18 PM
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  #41  
Old 07-10-2013, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F1.tifosi View Post
ESS option for an E39 M5

N54 has gone way past it

http://benzboost.com/content.php?348...l-dyno&page=10

http://www.audiboost.com/content.php...el-dyno&page=3

Note- All these are not hypes posted in BMW sites or forums..

Btw rrides- I am heading for vargas or RB's soon, let me know where to meet you and your folks for a race.. Waiting..
I hope this isn't where we're taking this thread...

F1.tifosi, no one is doubting the performance of your 535i. In fact, I'm impressed at the level you've claimed to take your car. Kudos!

If and when I want to make my car any faster than it already is, I'll cross that bridge when I get there. For now, with the little things I've done to her, she is plenty fast and delivers all the quoted 400hp I need. I drive home with a smile everyday and I'm sure you do the same. *tips hat*

To the original poster. If owning a BMW to make it blistering fast is your goal, consider non M models like F1.tifosi has done, and go to town. Maintenance is cheaper and parts aren't M specific. Although once you go the custom route to get more speed, parts are much more particular and costly.There is a give and take...

Or, if you want to own a BMW without having to do much else other than get in it and drive hella fast, get an M (E39, E46, E60, E90, E92). All very fast cars that will not disappoint and all come with the exclusivity of saying you own an M car (its self fulfilling for sure, but sh1t, to say you drive an M5 (no matter what year) vs a 5xx...I can't lie...feels good) .

At the end of the day, F1.tifosi drives a fast 535i. A 535i. If that's your goal, then go for it. ard, rrides, 900, mark_m5, and I drive M cars. That's what we wanted and we're plenty happy we stepped up and made the plunge.

rconner, do what's right for you. Drive the cars. Feel them out. Then at the end of the day, make a decision. Forget internet arguments. Subjective, biased articles. Youtube videos and races. Buy with your heart and what feels good to you and more importantly, your wallet. You can never go wrong when you do that.

F1.tifosi, Ill see you on the road. If and when we meet, first round of drinks are on me.

Good luck, rconner!

Last edited by Meltron; 07-10-2013 at 09:59 PM.
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  #42  
Old 07-10-2013, 10:14 PM
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Also, I'd be remissed if I didn't mention, again (as it has already been brought up) that the S3 stroked and supercharged kit can lay down an impressive, minimum 620HP. While it does come at a significant cost, if rconner says he has 40k to spend on a car, he could get a 14 - 17K E39, spend 18K on an S3 performance tune, $160 to tint his windows lest the cops see him, and could walk on a lot of cars. But that means there is a significant love for the legend and body style that is the E39. Meaning he would be willing to spare no expense in making that car a monster.

Anyway, just putting that out there.
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  #43  
Old 07-11-2013, 02:17 AM
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Last edited by F1.tifosi; 07-12-2013 at 08:33 PM.
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  #44  
Old 07-11-2013, 06:55 AM
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I'm not hurted! Mel is sensitive to these things cause he has kids.

Here is the info on the Greenville run from the M3 post:

Here's the plan:

Meet at 9:30AM

Ingles (in the parking lot)
1500 Geer Hwy
Travelers Rest, SC 29690

We will leave at 10AM. We will split everyone into 3 groups (with someone local that knows the route leading each group), leaving 10 mins apart. Please come already fueled up. We will then drive on Caesar's head, head towards Brevard for lunch (get there at 11:30ish if not earlier), then we will drive on part of the Blue Ridge Parkway. There will be a stop for a small photoshoot around a place called Skinny Dip falls.

After that, the group from ATL can start heading South if they want, while the NC folks can break off too. The SC crew will prob go a bit further and then call it a day.

Here's the route:

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=1...=10&via=3&z=10

This is pretty much the same route as we took on this drive. Here are some pics:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=847689

Eric, please spread the word to the ATL guys about this new info. I'll also leave you my phone number so that we can all communicate.

Everyone else, please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
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I will post updates on the meet info as soon as I get it from the M3 board guys.

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  #45  
Old 07-12-2013, 08:34 PM
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Cobb (Race E30 Map PTF -Jake) | Injen DCI | BMS OCC | ER anodized FMIC |AR DP Catted |TIAL Q BOV | ER Diverter Valve Charge Pipe | Quaife LSD | RPI GT Race Catback Exhaust | P3(VIDI) Boost Gauge| BMS LT Thermostat | LED AE, Interior, Fog, Side Marker | 19" Style 433 M | Michelin PS A/S 3 |
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  #46  
Old 07-13-2013, 04:07 AM
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The map link didn't work the first time but this link does:

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=1...=10&via=3&z=10
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  #47  
Old 07-18-2013, 04:40 PM
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Mein Auto: 2002 M5, 1999 M Roadster
With the muffler delete, don't you get a lot more attention from the Five-Oh? Isn't that a noise violation fix-it ticket in the making?

When I was a young punk kid, I had a supercharged Camaro Z/28 with glass-pack mufflers that sounded almost like straight pipes. I recall one motorcycle cop telling me he heard me coming from a mile away before his speed trap. I learned to like "stealth" after that. But I do miss the loud noise. I rented a Ferrari and had a blast with the loud exhaust and high RPM. Just not sure I'd want that level of attention in my daily driver. Maybe in the M roadster, since it's the weekend car.
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  #48  
Old 07-18-2013, 07:59 PM
Meltron Meltron is offline
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Location: Atlanta
 
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Mein Auto: 2000 TiAg M5
It's not as bad as you might think. While it is louder than usual under full throttle, normal driving around town is fairly tame. Unlike an E60 M5 with muffler deletes or a Ferrari exhaust for that matter; those are massively loud.

Here is a video of me talking about my experience:


And here is what it sounds like outside the car (I missed second gear)

(its loud but remember I'm under full throttle)

...
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  #49  
Old 07-18-2013, 08:54 PM
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TheyCallMeNun TheyCallMeNun is offline
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Location: New Jersey
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 501
Mein Auto: 07 335i coupe
How to get an e 39 to out perform a e60

Quote:
Originally Posted by F1.tifosi View Post
My E60 535i can easily beat a E39 M5...


Nowadays the twin turbo is rocking... If you ever wanna get a car that can match with a E60 M5 or F10 M5, get a twin turbo and mod it..

All the best..
EDIT: Oops, I should really read all the posts in the thread, before commenting. Sorry...

I'm sorry, but I doubt your car can beat an E39, unless its chipped.. Assuming you have the newest e60.

e39 specs
weight
Kerb weight 1,826 kg (4,026 lb)
Power
I6 twin turbo, 7,000 rpm redline, 394 horsepower and 369 lb-ft of torque.

2008-2010 e60 535i
Weight
Kerb weight 1,660 kg (3,659 lb)
Power
N/A V8, 5,800 rpm redline, 306 horsepower and 295 lb-ft of torque.

So I think the M5 would beat you in a straight line. Also, I think he would beat you on a track. Not only that, if you talk mods.. Don't forget the M5 doesn't even have FI yet.


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Last edited by TheyCallMeNun; 07-18-2013 at 08:59 PM.
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  #50  
Old 07-27-2013, 07:09 AM
drmotorhead drmotorhead is offline
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Location: terra ceia, fl
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6
Mein Auto: e39 m5, acura nsx
I just bought an 2000 M5, and I expect to come very close to matching the newer version's performance with the following mods:
Headers, no xcats, thinner guage wall pipes and light mufflers from Burns Stainless, lightweight wheels, tires and brakes, CF hood and trunk, strip out some luxury items that I dont use(11 extra speakers, cd changer, nav, etc., tuning, light weight seats. I will lose about 10% in weight, pick up 10%+ in HP, which should do it. Not the cheapest way to go, but very fun to drive.
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