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7 Series - F01 / F02 (2009 - current)
The new re-designed 7 series F01 / F02 leads off the BMW Fxx chassis code!

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  #26  
Old 06-04-2013, 06:57 AM
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dagoo98 dagoo98 is offline
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Originally Posted by aom7 View Post
I was under the impression that BMW has a lot of experience w/ turbo engines? I recall in Europe they've got turbo diesels, turbo 4, 6 (that we get here) etc. and have been doing so for years?

I don't like these 15k oil changes. Yes, both MB and even Lexus have shorter intervals. My mechanic doesn't like them either. BUT that said... I've seen folks send out their oil for analysis at the 15k mark and it comes back just fine (barring any other engine or system issues) vs. what you'd expect (like significatly more breakdown). So if the oil doesn't show significant breakdown, how does changing it more often make a difference to the timing chain guides?
Good question.....The contaminates that develop in the Oil and result of heat bond to the plastic timing chain rails and speed up the crystallization process on this timing chain guides. When the rails fail they literally crack up and then break piece but piece similar to how you brake a piece of chocolate off of a candy bar.

Those oil tests actually check the molecular structure of the "Synthetic Bonds" used to make synthetic oil. So the short answer is that the oil is doing it's job molecularly but doesn't address oil contamination.

So what is supposed to stop this contamination you ask? Simple answer is the oil filter but does anyone test oil filters at the end of their 15k mile interval to see if it was still effective in removing contamination from oil? I know I've never done it and I've never even heard of anyone do it. But once again I would rather be over pre-cautious than guess when my oil filter is no longer effective.
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  #27  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by beamlord View Post
..it doesn't.

The "change your oil as often as you can" is sponsored by the multi-billion oil industry and not by any possible common sense.

Like you mentioned, the oil is just fine and there's no scientific evidence of it losing it's most important qualities after said 15k miles.
I also chuckle at the religious differentiation between brands...Majority of them originates at the same places anyway..

It's like all those reeboks and nikes and pumas all of which are made in china from the same materials

Being in the Automotive industry and attending seminars all over the country I would like to tell you that everything you've just explained in this previous post is incorrect. I will also try to do so without being condescending.

First lets talk about your current situation with your car, I wanted to tell you that an engine replacement in your F01/F02 was not necessary but instead an over precaution based on the design of these motors. Timing chain guide failure is anticipated in the engineering process and as such pulling the Lower and Upper Oil Pan on your motor would have retrieved 99.9% of the debris from this event. With that being said, I can't argue with your logic especially since they subsidized this expense and you have a piece of mind.

Secondly, the Millions of dollars spend on Research and Development by the major Oil companies to get approvals from organization like BMW and National Oil Organizations involve incredibly detailed testing in order to gain approval.

Please refer to my previous post on the importance of your oil filter and how contaminates deteriorate Crankcase systems, Timing Chain Guides, etc. Everyone claims to know everything about Oil but never mentions Oil filters and how they perform after this silly 15k interval. Have you guys ever looked at an oil filter that literally crumbled and fell apart after removing it from the oil filter housing? There is no way that filter is still doing it's job? I have definitely seen this after a 15k mile oil change interval especially in city driving with many shirt trips.

Just providing some food for thought for the group, if you don't agree that's your choice but you should at least do some research on your own and make an informed decision instead of just listening to someone who says they know what they are talking about......(Like myself......lol)
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  #28  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:19 AM
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beamlord beamlord is offline
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Originally Posted by dagoo98 View Post
Being in the Automotive industry and attending seminars all over the country I would like to tell you that everything you've just explained in this previous post is incorrect. I will also try to do so without being condescending.

First lets talk about your current situation with your car, I wanted to tell you that an engine replacement in your F01/F02 was not necessary but instead an over precaution based on the design of these motors. Timing chain guide failure is anticipated in the engineering process and as such pulling the Lower and Upper Oil Pan on your motor would have retrieved 99.9% of the debris from this event. With that being said, I can't argue with your logic especially since they subsidized this expense and you have a piece of mind.

Secondly, the Millions of dollars spend on Research and Development by the major Oil companies to get approvals from organization like BMW and National Oil Organizations involve incredibly detailed testing in order to gain approval.

Please refer to my previous post on the importance of your oil filter and how contaminates deteriorate Crankcase systems, Timing Chain Guides, etc. Everyone claims to know everything about Oil but never mentions Oil filters and how they perform after this silly 15k interval. Have you guys ever looked at an oil filter that literally crumbled and fell apart after removing it from the oil filter housing? There is no way that filter is still doing it's job? I have definitely seen this after a 15k mile oil change interval especially in city driving with many shirt trips.

Just providing some food for thought for the group, if you don't agree that's your choice but you should at least do some research on your own and make an informed decision instead of just listening to someone who says they know what they are talking about......(Like myself......lol)
Thank you for this - I am in no way "in denial", my previous post may have sounded a bit off but not meant to be insulting.
There are - many- lines between black and white. In the end we choose one of those lines and stick to it.

Anyway I do admit your explanation re: crumbling timing chain guide makes a lot of sense. I just can't help wondering didn't they have that in mind? I mean, built in a part that brittles if oil becomes too contaminated?
Is that some kind of a built-in punishment or a mechanism to deliberately shorten the engine life..
I am by no means an automotive specialist but I am almost certain there's a use some material for the chain guides that DOESNT brittle from oil contaminants (?)
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  #29  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:20 AM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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One thing that is being misquoted here is the 15k oil change. The interval is a fluid number, changed by driving conditions. My 750 went for an oil change at just under 11k miles. The service required notification came up and I scheduled a visit- so if you are doing all city, your interval will be shorter and if you are all highway it should be longer...
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  #30  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:21 AM
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On a different note: can I just tamper the oil change interval or cause the scheduled oil change to be earlier by changing it in the system?
So that I can have BMW do it for me (I've got the 100k / 5 year service package)
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  #31  
Old 06-04-2013, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by beamlord View Post
On a different note: can I just tamper the oil change interval or cause the scheduled oil change to be earlier by changing it in the system?
So that I can have BMW do it for me (I've got the 100k / 5 year service package)
The logic in the BMW Service Tool (ISIS) only allows technicians to reset the Oil service Interval. I'm not sure if there is some sort of aftermarket tool that is capable of doing this.
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  #32  
Old 06-04-2013, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Emilner View Post
One thing that is being misquoted here is the 15k oil change. The interval is a fluid number, changed by driving conditions. My 750 went for an oil change at just under 11k miles. The service required notification came up and I scheduled a visit- so if you are doing all city, your interval will be shorter and if you are all highway it should be longer...
This is also true.....very surprised to see that you got so far away from the 15k Mile mark. Secondly, the reason why every one quotes that number is because when the Condition Based Service for the Oil Change is reset it defaults to that interval but nevertheless you bring up a good point.

Either way my opinion is still stands that that is still too many miles for an oil filter especially if you are doing city driving. This becomes even more dangerous to your engine as your engine gets older and developed deposits and sludge and contamination.
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  #33  
Old 06-04-2013, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by beamlord View Post

I am by no means an automotive specialist but I am almost certain there's a use some material for the chain guides that DOESNT brittle from oil contaminants (?)
I do not know the answer to this question and it is a good one. I can hypothesize two things......First there is probably an issue of minimizing cost here.......Secondly I think the conflict here is that the chain rides on the rail so maybe they want to be cautious about how potentially abrasive the rail material can be if it was to come in contact with the chain.
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  #34  
Old 06-04-2013, 08:42 PM
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I went to an indy shop in Anaheim Hills(to get my roof wrapped by Don N. on here), and spoke with the owner and he showed me pictures of a E90 engine that has gotten the free 15k oil changes only, and another that has them done at 7500 miles. There was a HUGE difference, the one every 7500 miles/twice a year was night & day clean, the other one was filthy.

A different time I spoke with a SA at my local dealer about preventative oil changes sooner than 15k miles. He said he was a SA for over 12 years, and he hasnt seen the need for extra oil changes, the monitor will adjust the mileage based on usage as well know.

I tend to lean toward the indy shop owner, I don't think BMW's free maintenance is a smart idea. Whether or not I decide to keep my car past the lease is another story, but until I get to that point, incase I do - I'll be doing them every 7500 miles incase. If its not me, the next owner should hopefully get a more solid, and longer lasting 7. The cost to me is only say $150 a year if I have the dealer do it for me, and the other oil change will be free, small price to pay in my opinion.

Chris
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Last edited by ChrisF01; 06-04-2013 at 08:44 PM.
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  #35  
Old 06-04-2013, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dagoo98 View Post
Good question.....The contaminates that develop in the Oil and result of heat bond to the plastic timing chain rails and speed up the crystallization process on this timing chain guides. When the rails fail they literally crack up and then break piece but piece similar to how you brake a piece of chocolate off of a candy bar.

Those oil tests actually check the molecular structure of the "Synthetic Bonds" used to make synthetic oil. So the short answer is that the oil is doing it's job molecularly but doesn't address oil contamination.

So what is supposed to stop this contamination you ask? Simple answer is the oil filter but does anyone test oil filters at the end of their 15k mile interval to see if it was still effective in removing contamination from oil? I know I've never done it and I've never even heard of anyone do it. But once again I would rather be over pre-cautious than guess when my oil filter is no longer effective.
I see you point about the filters. I had a friend that decided to use synthetic on his Jeep Liberty V6 and figured he could now get away with 15k intervals like all these "expensive cars". I then informed him that the problem isn't the oil (that would probably last 15k, all things equal), but then I told him that it's his filter (as someone pointed out on another board), that if the filter wasn't designed to run 15k, it WILL break down sooner and let all those contaminants loose. BMW designed their filters for 10k+ oil changes... I don't think Jeep did.

That said, another board conversation did mention that the BMW filters are doing their jobs (and I've personally changed the oil on all my E46, E38 and E39 and the filter was the least of the problem in my experience) and that actually these oil testings do measure not only breakdown (and a whole bunch of other metrics), but also contamination. And they didn't show any anything to speak of for those guys that submitted it (barring a coolant leak or other engine issue).

In fact, most tests showed that 15k oil had the same properties as 10k or 8k or 5k oil (in some cases). These testing places can't tell how long it's been running, per se, so they leave it up to customer to mention that, but they've reported back that more often then not, it's pretty much the same. So if the oil is still good and there are no noticable contaminents, then wouldn't that mean that in BMW's case, the filters seem to be doing their jobs?

I'm not trying to contradict you, don't get me wrong. I WILL be changing it every 7.5k. Just because it's easy and I can and I'm used to it. But w/o any noticeable contamination present, all things equal... I'm still a bit perplexed.

One shop foreman on a board mentioned "You know what I do w/ all that syn oil that people have me change for them at 5k or 7.5k?... I put it MY car, HAHA!"
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  #36  
Old 06-05-2013, 05:46 AM
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beamlord beamlord is offline
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I always knew the oil itself can't be that much different or lose it's main qualities (viscosity, lubrication) even after 50k miles.

I tend to believe the filter theory. It makes a lot more sense to me. It also explains the contamination in the oil during the time it's actually in the engine and during operation, without the oil itself being bad when tested in lab.
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  #37  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisF01 View Post
I went to an indy shop in Anaheim Hills(to get my roof wrapped by Don N. on here), and spoke with the owner and he showed me pictures of a E90 engine that has gotten the free 15k oil changes only, and another that has them done at 7500 miles. There was a HUGE difference, the one every 7500 miles/twice a year was night & day clean, the other one was filthy.

A different time I spoke with a SA at my local dealer about preventative oil changes sooner than 15k miles. He said he was a SA for over 12 years, and he hasnt seen the need for extra oil changes, the monitor will adjust the mileage based on usage as well know.

I tend to lean toward the indy shop owner, I don't think BMW's free maintenance is a smart idea. Whether or not I decide to keep my car past the lease is another story, but until I get to that point, incase I do - I'll be doing them every 7500 miles incase. If its not me, the next owner should hopefully get a more solid, and longer lasting 7. The cost to me is only say $150 a year if I have the dealer do it for me, and the other oil change will be free, small price to pay in my opinion.

Chris
The dealer doesn't see a difference because he doesn't see the engines broken down like someone who actually works on the car would see. Also, the person with that 75k mile engine that is sludged up is definitely not going to the dealer to get the car repaired because the repairs would probably cost close to the value of the car......lol.......
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  #38  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by aom7 View Post
I see you point about the filters. I had a friend that decided to use synthetic on his Jeep Liberty V6 and figured he could now get away with 15k intervals like all these "expensive cars". I then informed him that the problem isn't the oil (that would probably last 15k, all things equal), but then I told him that it's his filter (as someone pointed out on another board), that if the filter wasn't designed to run 15k, it WILL break down sooner and let all those contaminants loose. BMW designed their filters for 10k+ oil changes... I don't think Jeep did.

That said, another board conversation did mention that the BMW filters are doing their jobs (and I've personally changed the oil on all my E46, E38 and E39 and the filter was the least of the problem in my experience) and that actually these oil testings do measure not only breakdown (and a whole bunch of other metrics), but also contamination. And they didn't show any anything to speak of for those guys that submitted it (barring a coolant leak or other engine issue).

In fact, most tests showed that 15k oil had the same properties as 10k or 8k or 5k oil (in some cases). These testing places can't tell how long it's been running, per se, so they leave it up to customer to mention that, but they've reported back that more often then not, it's pretty much the same. So if the oil is still good and there are no noticable contaminents, then wouldn't that mean that in BMW's case, the filters seem to be doing their jobs?

I'm not trying to contradict you, don't get me wrong. I WILL be changing it every 7.5k. Just because it's easy and I can and I'm used to it. But w/o any noticeable contamination present, all things equal... I'm still a bit perplexed.

One shop foreman on a board mentioned "You know what I do w/ all that syn oil that people have me change for them at 5k or 7.5k?... I put it MY car, HAHA!"
I will duly note your points but let me ask you a question......when you drain your oil do you get every drop of oil out of the engine? Let me answer for you.....NO!!!! So the oil that these processing centers analyze is the "less thick oil that comes out" for lack of a more scientific term. So this left over oil/contaminants/sludge that is left over mixes with the new oil which is why if you change your oil and drive and around the block and drain it your oil will come out almost as black as the oil you just changed. As you extend your oil change intervals, this left over mixture gets thicker, more sludgy, more contaminated and makes your fresh oil start off worse than it should. Hypothetically, if you could start with a new engine or actually drain every single drop of oil during every oil change there would be nothing wrong with this oil change interval but we don't live in a fairy tale.

I'm simply trying to share some knowledge but I think I'm going to leave everyone wondering why they are having these premature failures of Timing Chain Guides, Crankcase System Leaks, Valve Covers that leak Prematurely, Premature Turbo Leaks, etc. It's very simple guys, these cars have to be designed and produced within very small tolerances that don't take into account wear and tear or engine built up whether it be carbon deposits on valve from Direct Injection Engines or Sludge/Contamination from extended Oil change intervals.

One last piece of knowledge, does anyone ever wonder why BMW's have such prominent oil leaks? Let me answer for you, poor crankcase ventilation. What causes this? Two causes, poor maintenance from owners who can't afford their cars, and the second lack of oil changes from the first owner who just used the free oil changes from BMW. The contaminants that develop in the engine begin to actually harden the Breather hoses which are the "arteries" of the Positive Crankcase System. This increases the pressure in the crankcase and reduces the life of the Gaskets in the engine.

OK I'm really finished now, spent way too time in this thread. Please do your research gentleman. And FYI, research is not something that some other guy who has access to the internet says or not something that someone who wears a BMW shirt says.....especially if he's been a service advisor for 12 years.........lol. Sorry I couldn't resist it's just fun and games. Cheers guys.....
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  #39  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by beamlord View Post
I always knew the oil itself can't be that much different or lose it's main qualities (viscosity, lubrication) even after 50k miles.

I tend to believe the filter theory. It makes a lot more sense to me. It also explains the contamination in the oil during the time it's actually in the engine and during operation, without the oil itself being bad when tested in lab.
Couldn't have said it better. Everyone should try it in their garage one day......Change your oil and Filter, drive around the block and then drain your oil again. What do you think made that nice light brown oil so black? It's common sense guys.......
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  #40  
Old 06-05-2013, 11:04 PM
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Two things:
1- I have a GMC Denali in my garage. GMC does not use synthetic oil, uses much cheaper filters, and does not cover the cost of maintenance. The recommended interval between oil changes is 7500 miles. Going 15,000 miles in my BMW with synthetic oil and what appears to be a much better filter does not seem unreasonable by comparison.
2- BMW maintenance DOES cover more frequent oil changes than 15,000 miles. You are entitled to at least one oil change per year regardless of mileage. These "in between" oil changes do not reset your service indicator, so you still get another oil change when the on board computer indicates it (somewhere around 15K miles depending on your driving habits).
My car has 18,000 miles on it and has already had TWO oil changes. The first when it was a year old (around 8K), and the second when the service indicator told me to (around 14K). Both of these oil changes were covered under the maintenance program.
I suppose this doesn't help you if you put a lot of miles on, but for someone like me (I drive about 8K/year), it means my oil is changed about every 8000 miles.
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  #41  
Old 06-16-2013, 06:09 AM
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wjhughes420384 wjhughes420384 is offline
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Well, they have replaced both my turbos, one catalytic converter, the high pressure fuel pump, one bank of coils, a few sensors and I still have the problem. Technician is great, working back and forth with me on fixes. He still has one more thing to change.
It is recording an over boost fault in the DME. only happens under hard acceleration at the high end usually around 100mph. then I loose boost. Shutting the car off and restarting it temporarily fixes the problem.
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  #42  
Old 06-28-2013, 07:07 PM
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wjhughes420384 wjhughes420384 is offline
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even after replacing both turbos, they would loose boost around 100mph, pushing hard. finally the dealer tried changing a few selenoids and sensors. looks like it is finally fixed
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  #43  
Old 06-29-2013, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by wjhughes420384 View Post
even after replacing both turbos, they would loose boost around 100mph, pushing hard. finally the dealer tried changing a few selenoids and sensors. looks like it is finally fixed
Well if that fixes it... it looks like another case of dealer incompetence rather than BMW's fault. Again, these cars are going to have problems, but after 5 years, the problems have been astonishingly fewer (than the E65, for instance), that I'm beginning to feel that dealer ineptitude is contributing to so many of these "I've got this problem and it can't be fixed so they're lemoning the car, or changing out my engine, or they replaced this but the car's still broken, etc." which then gives the perception that the cars are designed to fail.

It's funny, I had a 1.8T VW a few years ago, I sold it at 70k miles because I knew the that turbos would usually need replacing by 100k--but everyone on the VW board understood that to be "normal" and no one complained. Are turbo supposed to last forever otherwise?

These are astonishingly complicated machines... so when you've got a technician working on it, they're usually inclined to just swap parts until they fix the problem or just give up and say "it's normal" rather than diagnosing it properly. I've had that happen so many times to me (and how often do they mess up the replacement procedure and scratch this or forget to plug that in... ugh!). Anyway, hope it works out for you and this finally fixes it! I'd start looking for a new dealership
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  #44  
Old 06-29-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by wjhughes420384 View Post
even after replacing both turbos, they would loose boost around 100mph, pushing hard. finally the dealer tried changing a few selenoids and sensors. looks like it is finally fixed
You are certainly getting more use out of your car than I am (or every will). How many of you out there are tracking the 7?
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  #45  
Old 07-02-2013, 06:53 PM
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actually I think I have a great dealer, I talk regularly with the tech that works on my car. The solenoids tested good with BMW procedures. they only failed on 2nd or 3rd trip to 6500 rpm in rapid sequence, at which point you are well north of 100. How many techs are willing to even test drive that. BMW had sent a tech to the dealer and they left. My guy is the one that figured it out.

If you have never tried it, take your 7 to a BMW track event, it is the most fun you can have with your clothes on, LOL!
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  #46  
Old 07-02-2013, 07:09 PM
aom aom is offline
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Location: SoCal
 
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Posts: 478
Mein Auto: 750i 740i 330ci
I don't know, with all the parts they replaced first, before finding the problem (and that is a long and expensive list), seems to me like he was what we call "throwing parts at the problem". If that were me (or if it was coming out of my pocket) I wouldn't be too happy. I can only imagine what my clients would say if I misdiagnosed a root-cause analysis failure. Hopefully you weren't w/o your car for too long throughout all this. But glad they tracked it down for you.

But it does go back to my conclusion that these are very complicated cars and most techs don't have the engineering skills to track down complicated issues on the first try (hence why we're seeing swapping out parts like turbos, engines, whole transmissions... and even entire cars--but I can't help but think how many of those might be caused by a 100 dollar solenoid?).
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F01 750i Dark Graphite Metallic
M-Sport | Driver Assistance | Luxury Seating | Camera | Convenience | Premium Sound | 20" 303M Wheels | Ceramic Controls
MODS: BMS Stage 1 Tune | PedalBox | M-Sport Paddle Shift Steering Wheel | 5000k HID | Tint | Taillight LCI Tint | Mtec V3 Halo LED | Coded.
E38 740i Jet Black
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  #47  
Old 11-16-2013, 02:08 AM
Abunde Abunde is offline
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Location: CT
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 29
Mein Auto: 2010 BMW 750ix
I am at 136,000 miles with no Turbo, or other issues. Vehicle still going strong. Mine is a 2010 750ix, with Dinan Stage 3, Dinan Exhaust, and PedalBox. Have only done maintenance items - Alternator, Plugs, Differential and Gear fluid changes, as well as transmission oil flush and change. Have had to replace my Crankcase breather valves at some point. All in all has been as reliable as my late 2001 E38.
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  #48  
Old 11-16-2013, 07:35 AM
midwestbmwguy midwestbmwguy is offline
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Location: Kansas City
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 111
Mein Auto: 2011 BMW 750LI Xdrive
Are turbos covered by the BMW cpo warranties and their warranty wrap program.
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  #49  
Old 11-16-2013, 08:29 AM
DLF750 DLF750 is offline
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Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Mein Auto: 2011 BMW 750i X Drive
Wondering if maybe we should do oil changes more frequently now that I've read this. It doesn't cost that much since it wouldn't be covered under the maintenance plan unless it's due. Better to be safe than sorry late on when you're out of warranty.
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  #50  
Old 11-16-2013, 01:05 PM
AdamG13 AdamG13 is offline
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Location: Los Angeles, CA / Hillsboro Beach, FL
 
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Mein Auto: 2013 750i
If you own rather than lease, I'd say just to do it ~7500 if you have spare time or happen to be at the dealer for something else. It's a pretty small price to pay to at the very at least kept the engine clean and running as well as it can, and gives you a little extra insurance against future drama. Isn't much more than some house keepers want to clean up my place after an after-party.

I'd think the frequency of oil changes would be more important when the engine is newer, since parts are being broken in and contaminating the oil more - but that's just a guess. Probably going to have mine done shortly to get rid of whatever nasty stuff is floating around after my break-in period.
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Last edited by AdamG13; 11-16-2013 at 01:06 PM.
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