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E63 / E64 6 Series (2003 - 2013)
The E63/E64 BMW 6 Series builds on BMW's sporty heritage with aggressive lines and an incredible motor to back the design up. Available in coupe and convertible trims with a standard 4.8 liter engine producing 360 horsepower and 360 lb-ft of torque, the 6-series is a popular choice that exceeds expectations.

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  #26  
Old 07-22-2013, 10:51 AM
mws mws is offline
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Also, I have no idea what your mechanical abilities are, but unless you're going to research this out, and do most or all the work yourself, I would recommend against the swap and do a supercharger. Or even sell your 6 and buy an M6 if you want more HP. The difference in the premium between a used 645 and an M6 with the same miles is not anywhere near what it was when they were new, of course.

I've done a few twin turbo swaps for former clients of mine, on 300ZXs and I always had to take them through some pre-swap counseling to make sure they understood that given the current market, they could just sell their non-turbo and buy a used TT in good shape and have just as much car, if not more. It's kind of like asking someone before a sex change "are you really really REALLY sure you want to do this?" :-)

Even for me, having a V12 sitting around (which needs $3800 worth of HPFPs just to get it running again), the cost benefit ratio does not pencil out unless I can buy a decent 645 with a blown engine for like $10K or less. M6s are getting into the $29K range with 100K on them. I'm not afraid of 100K miles.

In the past, the main reason my clients would do the 300ZX TT swap is because they had a ton of money into the body, stereo and paint on their car, or they had a configuration that did not come in turbo from the factory, like a convertible, or a 2+2 or a slicktop. The 300ZX TTs were all 2-seaters and T-tops cars.

Last edited by mws; 07-22-2013 at 10:59 AM.
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  #27  
Old 07-23-2013, 04:56 AM
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MakaveliFaison MakaveliFaison is offline
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Im not afraid of these cars I know them inside and out and know how to make the 650 accept the v12 already electronically. So that part wouldnt be hard but the fuel pumps is the only thing that makes me step back a little. I can get a m6 but I just wanted something different. And a v12 6series is different
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  #28  
Old 07-23-2013, 08:09 AM
mws mws is offline
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I'd like to discuss with you the electroncis thing via PM sometime soon. The HPFP thing is a big deal, but a forum member did find a dealer willing to sell a pair for only $3800. better than the list of $5000 for a pair. The good news is, the HPFP is completely different than the 3.5L HPFPs that go bad all the time. My first pair lasted 135K miles. But people are reporting them dying after only 80K or so.
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  #29  
Old 10-08-2013, 02:34 PM
mws mws is offline
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Some interesting comparison points to aid in the decision to do a N73 swap in a 645-650 or not:

1] drove an E63 M6 for the first time, finally. Have driven plenty of E60 M5s, but had not had the opportunity to test-drive the M6. I know from driving 545s and 645s that the engine note and sporty feel is more pronounced in the 6 (duh). The M6 did not disappoint me in the engine note or sporty-feel dept. I liked it a lot, and I plan to buy one used in the next year or so. I miss having a sporty coupe, after I sold my 600 RWHP Z32 300zx.

2] today just drove my pals Aston Martin DB9 (6.0L V12). it has 420 ft lb of torque and 450 hp, compared to the 760Li's N73 engine 440 ft lbs torque and 439 hp. On the Aston, I hit the rev limiter around 7000-7200 RPM. I could feel the fact the N73 has more torque down low, compared to the Aston. On my 760Li, when I mash the pedal at 2000 RPM, you feel almost all the torque instantly. Probably due to the Valvetronic, as well as VANOS. The other interesting point was, since the Aston's peak torque arrives later than the N73 motor, you have the same experience as with a M6 of really needing to rev it up to around 4000 RPM and then stabbing the pedal to get pushed back into your seat. So, driving wise, the Aston and M6 are fairly similar. Not exactly, but close.

So, a 645 with an N73 would be pretty brutal. More total torque down low than the Aston or M6 (60 ft lbs more than the M6) and torque arrives much sooner RPM wise, but still no slouch in the HP dept compared to the Aston. The N73 revs close to 7000 RPM which is also not slouchy. I'm just not sure I could justify the cost of doing the swap (yet :-) when higher-miles M6s are so amazingly cheap and compare so well with an Aston, costing 3-4X the price, used.

3] forgot to mention I also drove another pals 2007 CLS 63 AMG. The 6.3L NA V8 they made for just a few years. This car has more brute torque down low, as you might imagine. Feels a lot like the 760. The feel of a V12 645 would be very similar to that car. If anyone is thinking of the swap, try to get a drive in one of those.

Last edited by mws; 10-08-2013 at 02:55 PM.
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  #30  
Old 10-10-2013, 11:17 AM
castercorey castercorey is offline
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can the transmission handle the power?
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  #31  
Old 10-10-2013, 11:43 AM
mws mws is offline
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you can triple-check using realeom.com but the 760Li and 645 trannies are the same part number as far as I know.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...67&hg=24&fg=05

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...86&hg=24&fg=05

So the answer to your question is "definitely yes" The big difference, as I pointed out was: the 6 has a lower-geared final drive ratio in the differential than the V12 cars. The V12 has so much more turque than the V8, it does not need the help of a lower final drive gear ratio to get it to accelerate quickly. If they are otherwise the same diff casing, the two diffs could be swapped out if you wanted, I have no idea if this is possible.

If you left the stock 6 diff on the 6, the final drive gears would make the V12 even quicker and squirtier off the line than it would be if it had it's own 760Li diff installed on the 6. Could be very VERY fun. You'll get slightly poorer gas mileage and lower final top speed, but it would be minimal.

You could basically fix the difference between final gearing by simply going to a larger tire circle size. Your larger diameter tires would set things pretty much back to what the V12 expects to see.

Last edited by mws; 10-10-2013 at 11:48 AM.
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  #32  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:50 AM
Greg Lecewicz Greg Lecewicz is offline
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You can only gain below 10hp per each 100 pounds lost so take the hp of the V12 and subtract 20 hp because this is how much you've gained in weight. This is to the wheels hp assuming the gearing is similar. Nevertheless the technology is very impressive for somebody with a tremendous technical skill cause there are only very few people that would be able to do this transplant and your mechanic is not one of those people. You have to rip out everything from the car, "dry" fit the engine and weld the mounts for it and the transmission as well, reroute all the sensors, cables and change the brain, cut and weld the shaft, redo the entire exhaust, spend hours and hours reprograming the car. Besides this can you imagine the amount of little things, brackets etc you have to fabricate, machine, repaint etc.? One benefit is you don't have to use the lowering springs cause the 200 nose heavy weight would amount to some drop. I would assume you should counterbalance the rear to get close to 50/50 distribution with the same poundage so here goes an extra 200 pounds to the rear in the form of steel bars and the batteries maybe. So I guess you have to subtract close to 40 hp from the V12 output. It is a wonderful , very impressive , exciting dinosaur- and as such, extinct. If you need the hp add a turbo (10 000 bucks) or buy another car with more hp. You'd be better off just leaving the 650 as is and install the Lumma body kit 25 grand. It's a better eye catcher than any turbo but if you have the money do both and enjoy the car for a couple of years. 35 grand expense is huge for it- return none. Buy a Porsche for the value of your car plus 35 grand you just wanted to spend and you will have something that would still hold some value no matter how old.
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  #33  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:54 AM
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bigscore bigscore is offline
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Would it also need a "custom" suspension set-up (specially valved shocks and springs) to deal with the extra weight and dimensions of the V12 properly?
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  #34  
Old 10-12-2013, 10:55 AM
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Last edited by bigscore; 10-12-2013 at 11:00 AM.
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  #35  
Old 10-12-2013, 01:29 PM
mws mws is offline
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Greg, FWIW I agree with you on pretty much everything. It would be a waste of money. No doubt. The supercharger on a V8 would be the way to go, or even better, buy an M6. But it might be a fun project. The only reason to do it would be for fun, not to create something someone else wants to buy, for sure. I've done stuff like that before and had a ton of fun.

To tell you the truth, I am mostly concerned with crap like: no leather dash, no M bits in and on the car. stuff like that. I like the M package. The BEST way to go--performance-wise-- with a 6-- would be the M6 with supercharger, or the Dinan stroker kit, which is even better. You gain more torque with the stroker kit.

re: this statement: "You can only gain below 10hp per each 100 pounds lost so take the hp of the V12 and subtract 20 hp because this is how much you've gained in weight." Not sure what you mean? You are swapping an engine that usually pushes a 4800 lb car into a 3800 lb car, and maybe making that 3800 lb car weigh 4000 (just an estimate), you've still lost 800 lbs off the 760Li weight. I think the 660i would scoot quite nicely. The HP is a constant. You might be talking about how many tenths of a second of acceleration you gain?

As for bigscore's question re: suspension? who knows??.. you'd have to set it up and try it. It's always possible the struts are so similar in shape and size you might be able to swap a set of 760 front struts right over. I have no idea, but since so many other front suspension parts are the same, it's something worth checking into. BMW is great that way. Lots of interchangeable parts.
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  #36  
Old 10-12-2013, 06:48 PM
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  #37  
Old 10-13-2013, 12:29 PM
paultyk paultyk is offline
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Awesome
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