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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 10-27-2013, 04:32 AM
sburke91 sburke91 is offline
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50i Tuning Options--Experience/Thoughts?

I've done some searching, here, and on other forums, but can't find a good overall comparison on this.

I picked up a CPO 2011 50i a couple months ago, and love it. The primary warranty runs through September of 2014, then the 2-year CPO clock starts.

I'm considering a tune, both for the power (one has to be able to keep up with the M-Sports and the 2014's), and for the throttle response.

Based on the research I've done, the major options are:

Dinan stage 2 (http://www.dinancars.com/products/X-...2012-only.aspx)

Pros: Concurrent warranty through the end of my primary warranty, no 'piggyback' devices, good professed power gains
Cons: Cost, no ability to remove, some questions about actual power gains

ESS (http://www.esstuning.com/products/N6...-Software.html)

Pros: Lower cost than Dinan, removable, no 'piggyback devices', good professed power gains
Cons: Likely leaves a trace behind, which could create warranty/CPO issues

Kellners (http://www.bavauto.com/shop.asp)

Pros: Removable, good professed power gains
Cons: Cost, piggyback device, may require some wire splicing, seems to be less information available on this one

Burger stage 1 (http://www.burgertuning.com/N63_Jb_B...nce_Tuner.html)

Pros: Lowest cost (by far), completely removable
Cons: Lowest power gain, extremely 'piggyback'


Are there any other major players I'm missing? What are everyone's thoughts/experience with the above options? Also, does anyone have any experience towing with any of the above tunes?
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2013, 05:39 AM
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SteveinBelAir SteveinBelAir is offline
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Burger just purchased a 550i and is developing a Stage 2 JB4 for the N63. Based on my experience with his tune on my 335i, I'm confident the power gains will meet or exceed the others you list. I would hope to see 100whp tune only on 93 octane. It should be able to clear codes too. Don't listen to the piggyback haters - thousands are running them (Burger's and Vishnu's) on the N54 and N55 as well as the newer 4 pot and diesel motors. It is a proven tuning method and I have never had an issue with mine.

My biggest issue with the other tunes is the lack of before and after dyno charts from actual users. I think I've seen a Dinan one but no others. Maybe someone can prove me wrong.

You also missed Velos which is a flash but again, the only charts available are from Velos themselves.
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Last edited by SteveinBelAir; 10-27-2013 at 05:42 AM.
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2013, 10:42 AM
ard ard is offline
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Just know that any device that changes the engine operating parameters beyoud the stock configuration will leave behind traces in the DME in the event of a catastrophic engine failure. SHould BMW wish, the DME can be interrogated to determine what was happening when that rod broke.

They wont discover this when you bring the car in for an oil change...only if there is a big issue and something causes them to look.

Just fyi
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Old 10-27-2013, 02:15 PM
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SteveinBelAir SteveinBelAir is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Just know that any device that changes the engine operating parameters beyoud the stock configuration will leave behind traces in the DME in the event of a catastrophic engine failure. SHould BMW wish, the DME can be interrogated to determine what was happening when that rod broke.

They wont discover this when you bring the car in for an oil change...only if there is a big issue and something causes them to look.

Just fyi

I'm no expert but isn't this one of the advantages of a piggy? The DME never sees higher boost readings because the piggy intercepts the data and sends 'normal data' to the DME???
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  #5  
Old 10-27-2013, 06:13 PM
sburke91 sburke91 is offline
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Originally Posted by SteveinBelAir View Post
I'm no expert but isn't this one of the advantages of a piggy? The DME never sees higher boost readings because the piggy intercepts the data and sends 'normal data' to the DME???
I'm thinking there are still sensors that the piggyback isn't intercepting that will indicate operation outside the stock thresholds.

My big apprehension on the piggyback devices comes from working with motorcycles. I've had friends stranded at the side of the road when their PCIII died, leaving them with the option of running dangerously lean, or trailering the bike out.

I want something removable for a couple of reasons:
  • In case I want to return to stock before a long trip
  • For future trade-in or sale to a non-enthusiast
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  #6  
Old 10-27-2013, 06:36 PM
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SteveinBelAir SteveinBelAir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sburke91 View Post
I'm thinking there are still sensors that the piggyback isn't intercepting that will indicate operation outside the stock thresholds.

My big apprehension on the piggyback devices comes from working with motorcycles. I've had friends stranded at the side of the road when their PCIII died, leaving them with the option of running dangerously lean, or trailering the bike out.

I want something removable for a couple of reasons:
  • In case I want to return to stock before a long trip
  • For future trade-in or sale to a non-enthusiast
There are 'tuner codes' on the N54 that can be tripped if you are over-zealous with your settings. I think one has to do with fuel flow or pressure. The JB4 (for N54) can clear them on the fly or you can do it on demand from the steering wheel. Takes about a minute.

The JB4 for N54 is completely plug and play. It installs in the DME's watertight compartment and gets a power connection from there too. I had to remove mine once and from hood up to hood down was about 15 minutes. I have also intalled 3 others on friend's cars and I can do it in a similar time. Simple.

You can also disable it from the steering wheel when going in for oil changes etc. Map 0.

I'm hoping Terry brings all this to the N63 tune.
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  #7  
Old 10-27-2013, 07:18 PM
thackl thackl is offline
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Originally Posted by SteveinBelAir View Post
There are 'tuner codes' on the N54 that can be tripped if you are over-zealous with your settings. I think one has to do with fuel flow or pressure. The JB4 (for N54) can clear them on the fly or you can do it on demand from the steering wheel. Takes about a minute.

The JB4 for N54 is completely plug and play. It installs in the DME's watertight compartment and gets a power connection from there too. I had to remove mine once and from hood up to hood down was about 15 minutes. I have also intalled 3 others on friend's cars and I can do it in a similar time. Simple.

You can also disable it from the steering wheel when going in for oil changes etc. Map 0.

I'm hoping Terry brings all this to the N63 tune.
The JB4 for the N54 is great. I have it and a DCI for my 335i coupe. If Terry has something in mind for the 50i, I would be first in line to try it! I prefer a well done piggyback tune.
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2013, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveinBelAir View Post
I'm no expert but isn't this one of the advantages of a piggy? The DME never sees higher boost readings because the piggy intercepts the data and sends 'normal data' to the DME???
No.

I'm not talking about 'tuner codes' or 'hidden codes'...just operating parameters. The piggy only 'spoofs' some of the inputs to the DME.

Look, the odds of something happening is low- admittedly. I just get annoyed when tuners say "no codes" (and tell you they have a device to clear codes and tuner codes) as if that is the whole story.
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  #9  
Old 10-28-2013, 06:09 AM
sburke91 sburke91 is offline
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I watched the JB4 videos on Burger's site. It looks like a well-engineered solution. Has anyone had any experience with their stage1 on the X5? The N63 page doesn't list X5 as one of the applications for it.
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  #10  
Old 10-28-2013, 06:22 AM
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SteveinBelAir SteveinBelAir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sburke91 View Post
I watched the JB4 videos on Burger's site. It looks like a well-engineered solution. Has anyone had any experience with their stage1 on the X5? The N63 page doesn't list X5 as one of the applications for it.
I am putting one in in the next couple of weeks. The test car for Stage 1 was a 400HP N63 in a early 750i. It will work in the X5. Gains are something like 25 whp and 40tq

Someone here recently ran a 12.78 quarter in an X5 with the M Performance (450hp) motor and this tune.

Steve
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  #11  
Old 10-28-2013, 11:38 AM
Brian425 Brian425 is offline
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I would desinging computer systems for the finance industry. We talk with developers from all industries. I will bet EVERY PENNY that I have that BMW (and all other manufacturers) store data for events that are out of a specified range. Manufactures do this for multiple reasons. They want to understand the max and min values for all failures. This will allow them to trouble shoot their code.

The offshoot of this is that they can detect a "tune" that was added post production. BMW does not want to pay warranty cost for a tuner who focusses on max HP numbers and does not think of what HP/torqu the other components can handle. So if they see 18lbs of boost or an unusual fuel map, they are going to ask you how that could have happened.

If you want a tune, get a good one. There are several reputable companies. Just go into it with open eyes. You are not going to be able to fully mask the traces of the tune or piggy back. Manufacturers are not new to this game.
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:25 PM
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SteveinBelAir SteveinBelAir is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian425 View Post
I would desinging computer systems for the finance industry. We talk with developers from all industries. I will bet EVERY PENNY that I have that BMW (and all other manufacturers) store data for events that are out of a specified range. Manufactures do this for multiple reasons. They want to understand the max and min values for all failures. This will allow them to trouble shoot their code.

The offshoot of this is that they can detect a "tune" that was added post production. BMW does not want to pay warranty cost for a tuner who focusses on max HP numbers and does not think of what HP/torqu the other components can handle. So if they see 18lbs of boost or an unusual fuel map, they are going to ask you how that could have happened.

If you want a tune, get a good one. There are several reputable companies. Just go into it with open eyes. You are not going to be able to fully mask the traces of the tune or piggy back. Manufacturers are not new to this game.
The DME does store data but from what I understand, that memory has a finite capacity and it's first in first out. What you can do is trip a harmless code like TPMS and have it fill the memory buffer, pushing out data that could tip off BMW HQ of a tune.

This has been extensively discussed in the 3 series forums. I'll link to it.
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Last edited by SteveinBelAir; 10-28-2013 at 02:18 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-28-2013, 04:07 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by SteveinBelAir View Post
The DME does store data but from what I understand, that memory has a finite capacity and it's first in first out. What you can do is trip a harmless code like TPMS and have it fill the memory buffer, pushing out data that could tip off BMW HQ of a tune.

This has been extensively discussed in the 3 series forums. I'll link to it.
1. There is a vested interest in the "modding industry" to talk down these risks. Tuners and sellers will downplay the risk, and make up stuff like you are talking about.

2. If your engine or tranny blows up, REST ASSURED that the 'event' and the operating parameters leading up to this event are trapped. part of the event data recorder functions. Tuners cant see these. BMWNA can/will/has requested the DME be returned to them for interrogation. Not pulling codes.

You want to listen to yahoos speculate on how "you're cool dude, just disconnect the battery three times", fine. But the reality is that they CAN find out.

Truthfully the odds are low- a 55 YO guy with no mods and a professional appearance will likely get now questions. A 28 YO with baggy pants and gofast parts on the car will attract more attention.

And again, this is not rolling in for an oil service, and them 'spotting a tune'...this is an engine grenading for a BMW mfg defect (ie NOT the tune) and yet they look and find the tune..... If the car is running, you can clear codes, play with stuff, etc...

just understand there is no absolute assurance here.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:56 PM
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Kzang Kzang is online now
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I found this which can be added to your list..

http://www.gtbperformance.com/afe-sc...n55-motor.html
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:09 PM
sburke91 sburke91 is offline
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I found this which can be added to your list..

http://www.gtbperformance.com/afe-sc...n55-motor.html
This looks like it's N55 only, not N63. The V-8 tuning options are definitely sparse (and largely high $$) compared to the I6 options.
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Old 10-30-2013, 06:03 PM
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Available for N63 as well
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  #17  
Old 10-30-2013, 06:06 PM
sburke91 sburke91 is offline
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Yea--the ESS one was in my initial post. More and more I'm leaning toward the Burger stage 1. Bang for the buck is high, and it doesn't look like it VIN locks, so I can always sell it later.
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Old 10-30-2013, 06:45 PM
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Velos

Velos tuning is another option. They are active on Xbimmers.

http://velosdesignwerks.com/tuning
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Old 10-30-2013, 06:47 PM
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RENNtech

Another option is RENNtech http://www.renntechmercedes.com/www/node/691
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  #20  
Old 10-30-2013, 07:54 PM
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SteveinBelAir SteveinBelAir is offline
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Originally Posted by sburke91 View Post
Yea--the ESS one was in my initial post. More and more I'm leaning toward the Burger stage 1. Bang for the buck is high, and it doesn't look like it VIN locks, so I can always sell it later.
Yup, no VIN lock as it is a piggy. Stage 2 coming soon too.
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  #21  
Old 10-31-2013, 04:25 PM
Brian425 Brian425 is offline
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50i Tuning Options--Experience/Thoughts?

Dinan, Renntech, ActiveAutowerks, and Velos are all very reputable.

I have the Dinan stage 2 tune with AR Design catted down pipes on my X5 50i. I know that adding the down pipes puts me at risk for both my Dinan and BMW warranties. It is a risk I am willing to take.

If you have warranty concerns, Dinan is the way to go. The Dinan tune costs more because they build in the cost of the warranty.

If warranty is not an issue, I would recommend Renntech, AA, or Velos. The only reason to pick Dinan over the other 3 is warranty. HP/Torque is very similar between all 4 vendors.

Personally, I am not a fan of piggybacks. Just buy a good bleed off valve and trick the DME into thinking you are making less boost. If it runs too lean, put bigger injectors in. Put a good boost gauge on so you can monitor actual boost. This will insure the DME will never see the true boost and fuel reading. You can get a good bleed off valve for $20-$30 or a cheap aquarium valve for $5. I had a WRX that added 50 hp at the wheels that way. I also grenaded that motor a few months later. Too much boost? Too little fuel? Too much abuse? Who knows; but, that was the last bleed off valve I have ever used.


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  #22  
Old 10-31-2013, 07:42 PM
Rickm5X3 Rickm5X3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
1. There is a vested interest in the "modding industry" to talk down these risks. Tuners and sellers will downplay the risk, and make up stuff like you are talking about.

2. If your engine or tranny blows up, REST ASSURED that the 'event' and the operating parameters leading up to this event are trapped. part of the event data recorder functions. Tuners cant see these. BMWNA can/will/has requested the DME be returned to them for interrogation. Not pulling codes.

You want to listen to yahoos speculate on how "you're cool dude, just disconnect the battery three times", fine. But the reality is that they CAN find out.

Truthfully the odds are low- a 55 YO guy with no mods and a professional appearance will likely get now questions. A 28 YO with baggy pants and gofast parts on the car will attract more attention.

And again, this is not rolling in for an oil service, and them 'spotting a tune'...this is an engine grenading for a BMW mfg defect (ie NOT the tune) and yet they look and find the tune..... If the car is running, you can clear codes, play with stuff, etc...

just understand there is no absolute assurance here.
Another thoughtful post. One of several hundred. JCL and ard same person? Sometimes I wonder.
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  #23  
Old 11-01-2013, 01:39 PM
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Balanced out by at least a few hundred d1ck posts.



JCL and I used to argue quite a bit, which made your comment rather funny. Ive come to respect him immensely.
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  #24  
Old 11-05-2013, 07:49 AM
mecheng1 mecheng1 is offline
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dyno or performance data

Does anyone have before and after performance or dyno data for these products?
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:05 AM
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SteveinBelAir SteveinBelAir is offline
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Originally Posted by mecheng1 View Post
Does anyone have before and after performance or dyno data for these products?
Someone running Terry's Stg 1 tune ran a 12.78 in a 440HP 2013 X5 50i. Time slip is up somewhere on one of the X forums.

Dyno charts seem to all be from the vendor, the exceptions being Dinan and Terry (BMS).
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