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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 11-07-2013, 02:51 PM
Bmwlvr60 Bmwlvr60 is offline
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2014 Motor Trend Car of the Year Online

First I have the link to the entire online issue. Second, I cut/pasted the part about the 5 Series. Unfortunately, BMW didn't give MT a new 535d to review, nor an "updated 528i". An updated 528i? I find the news media to be either lazy, incompetent, uninformed or all three. Why wouldn't Jonny Lieberman know that all 5 Series received "an update"?

So, BMW gives MT an M5 model and it's a some positive and some negative review.

I wonder why BMW didn't give MT a 535d to review? How about a 535 or 550 with DHP or a RWD version with M Sport Passive suspension?

http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/...s/viewall.html


Contender: BMW 5 Series
By: Jonny Lieberman We Like: Abusive amounts of power result in skull-cracking acceleration. We Don't Like: Hefty, complex, and surprisingly numb. We were quite excited to get our hands on the updated 528i and the new 535d. We'd had a not-very-loved long-term 528i, and hoped the refresh would fix some of what we didn't like (i.e., stop/start). And we're cuckoo for diesels. Sad to say, BMW couldn't get us either car in time for Car of the Year. It did, however, happen to have the new M5 Competition lying around. For $7300 over the $95,125 base price, you get an additional 15 hp; a new, sportier-sounding exhaust system; 10mm-lower ride height from a revised suspension; and 20-inch lightweight alloy wheels. If that seems a little for a lot, it is. Especially considering that you still have to pay an additional $9250 for the carbon-ceramic brakes. 2014 BMW M5 Front End In Motion
2014 BMW M5 Front End 2014 BMW M5 Rear End 2014 BMW M5 Side 2014 BMW M5 Wheels 2014 BMW M5 Side Vent 2014 BMW M5 Front Badge However, said Evans, "It's definitely better than the last M5 I drove." Loh liked this uprated M5, too: "I can say I'd rather have this over the M6." And it's handsome. Said Kiino, "Looks the part. Bulging fenders set over big wheels and huge carbon brakes give it a menacing, powerful look." While the Competition version of the M5 does help the car scoot along better, the old flaws are there. Chiefly, it feels as if you're driving a bank vault with a speedometer that constantly reads 100 mph. Said Theodore, "Deceptively quick, which can get you into trouble. Every time I looked down, I was doing over 100 mph." But the issue isn't speed, which we like. It's that you're way too isolated from said speed. Then there's the whole programmability problem. Kiino put it rather harshly: "Just give me a sport mode or two, but not the 50 million combinations of throttle, steering, transmission, and suspension. Ridiculous and overwhelming." (243 for those who are counting.) The Competition package definitely raises the M5's game, but for the F10 5 Series, it's a case of too little too late. 2014 BMW M5 Rear Three Quarters
2014 BMW M5 Interior 2014 BMW M5 Cockpit 2014 BMW M5 Interior Front Seats 2014 BMW M5 Instrument Cluster 2014 BMW M5 Center Stack 2014 BMW M5 Center Console 2014 BMW M5 Engine 2014 BMW M5 Brake Calipers 2014 BMW M5 Grille Badge 2014 BMW M5 Front Three Quarters In Motion 03 2014 BMW M5 Rear Three Quarter In Motion 2014 BMW M5 Front Three Quarters In Motion 2014 BMW M5 Dimensions

2014 BMW M5
BASE PRICE $93,125
PRICE AS TESTED $117,075
POWER (SAE NET) 575 hp @ 6000 rpm
TORQUE (SAE NET) 500 lb-ft @ 1500 rpm
ACCEL 0-60, MPH 3.7 sec
QUARTER MILE 11.9 sec @ 122.2 mph
BRAKING 60-0, MPH 106 ft
LATERAL ACCEL 0.95 g (avg)
MT FIGURE EIGHT 24.3 sec @ 0.82 g (avg)
EPA ECON (CITY/HWY) 14/20 mpg


Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/...#ixzz2k0C9ceef
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:42 PM
piredon piredon is offline
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All of the major automotive publications have really written off the F10 5 series since it was first released. LCI hasn't helped much. They all seem to agree that the E39 was the peak and its been down hill since. I think the F10 is a pretty amazing car. To each his own, I suppose...
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  #3  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:59 PM
Fastpaddler Fastpaddler is offline
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The poor excuse for a review just shows that auto journalists like to entertain themselves with quaint(read cute) expressions and meaningless terms about auto characteristics which they view from a subjective point of view because to a large degree they dont understand the engineering of said vehicle and inadequate single tests are hardly very relevant. To complain about a "bank vault" feature as if is a negative is clearly a reflection of the shortcomings of the journalist. If one really wants a seat of the pants BMW with flingability, lots of errant noises especially from the road surface or from outside, then get one of the cheaper 3 series, for heaven's sake and dont be a 5 basher because it is fashionable. I believe we can ignore his review. Other auto journalists confirm this is the best 5 series ever and I agree. And I include the 550 too which I cannot afford--well I can but won't--but which has the pedigree on it's side.
Thats my take and I commend the OP for bringing his report to our attention .
AL

Last edited by Fastpaddler; 11-07-2013 at 05:02 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-07-2013, 05:47 PM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Originally Posted by Fastpaddler View Post
.... I believe we can ignore his review. ....AL
ignorance is bliss.....

Connectivity between man and machine is the essence of M. The pervasive sense of weight that permeates the F10 is antithetical to this most essential characteristic. The F10 M is what it is - a very fast luxurious executive transport but that is not an M from the point of view of many traditional M enthusiasts.
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  #5  
Old 11-07-2013, 05:54 PM
Fastpaddler Fastpaddler is offline
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ignorance is bliss.....

Connectivity between man and machine is the essence of M. The pervasive sense of weight that permeates the F10 is antithetical to this most essential characteristic. The F10 M is what it is - a very fast luxurious executive transport but that is not an M from the point of view of many traditional M enthusiasts.
You got it right!
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:09 PM
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:14 PM
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My old man has been telling me for 20 years how Cadillac is "back". I guess "being back on top" is more of a story to these journalists than, "those Germans win again." Can't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Last edited by Pringle; 11-08-2013 at 11:11 AM.
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by piredon View Post
All of the major automotive publications have really written off the F10 5 series since it was first released. LCI hasn't helped much. They all seem to agree that the E39 was the peak and its been down hill since. I think the F10 is a pretty amazing car. To each his own, I suppose...
I only hear that from people who haven't driven driven a 5 series since the E39.
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2013, 07:53 PM
GXAlan GXAlan is offline
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Originally Posted by Bmwlvr60 View Post
I wonder why BMW didn't give MT a 535d to review? How about a 535 or 550 with DHP or a RWD version with M Sport Passive suspension?
There's no one to blame but BMW NA right? Of the large print magazines in the US, you have Road and Track, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, and yes, Consumer Reports. Among those 4 magazines, it seems reasonable that priority should be given to supporting them with cars. When Motor Trend wanted to try out Mercedes Benz SLS Black for their "best driver's car" Mercedes air-freighted the car to them.

If there's an owner of a 535i/550i with 704 M-Sport in the Los Angeles area willing to donate their car as a demo, maybe you can contact him:

http://www.motortrend.com/staff/jonny_lieberman/

If you're polite, explain the whole "secret" 704 option that only showed up in 2013 and post-September 2013 production LCI and offer to have him give it a try and point him to the threads at Bimmerfest, it might be worth a shot. Even BMW enthusiasts know that BMW NA has made some crazy moves like 704'ing the suspension, not giving us a factory spare tire option, etc.

I'm driving a 2014 328i loaner car and the LCI non-M sport 535i has much better steering and actually much better seats and better bolsters. I can only imagine that the 704 suspension is superb on the track.
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  #10  
Old 11-07-2013, 08:23 PM
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If the real M5 was considered a pig in the review, why would a 'lowly' M-Sport suspension suddenly wow the same journalist? The current F10 is too heavy and isolated from the road to win over performance minded journalists, no matter which form it's presented in. The best we can hope for is that the next generation 5-Series trims down and brings back some driving feel, while still keeping the quietness and tech goodies that today's drivers demand.
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  #11  
Old 11-07-2013, 11:46 PM
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If I was BMW I'd slap these guys with their own magazine issue.

Since when is "feels like a Bank Vault" and an executive sedan feeling "TOO" isolated to where you can't tell how fast you're going" a bad thing for a Luxury Sedan? Sounds like BMW made the car TOO GOOD for its intended purpose and selfishly one-track minded "Journo's" don't care about why we as customers buy it in record droves, allowing it to take more market share from competitors than any 5 before it.

Fact is BMW over-engineered this car for the Midsize Luxury Sedan segment, using a 7 Series chassis which houses also a Rolls Royce Ghost it's TOO stiff, TOO quiet, TOO smooth. It's everything an expensive Luxury car is supposed to be, and attains that by being essentially a much more inherently expensive car than what its MSRP suggests and so much so that those who crave a rawer, louder, rougher, more connected feel (i.e what many would also consider a "cheaper" base of a car) lambast it. Funny.
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2013, 10:12 AM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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....
Since when is "feels like a Bank Vault" and an executive sedan feeling "TOO" isolated to where you can't tell how fast you're going" a bad thing for a Luxury Sedan? .......
F10 architecture may provide the basis for a very nice luxury car, but makes for an ersatz M. The very characteristics you hold dear are an anathema to most M drivers. M eschews isolation in pursuit of engaging, visceral and above all communicative. Many aficionados of M deem the F10 M5 to be an oxymoron.

BTW although the F10 M5 is not my cup of tea - too big and heavy for me - I do respect it and I am pleased BMW had the guts to build it. The M5 is an engineering marvel.
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  #13  
Old 11-08-2013, 06:05 PM
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F10 architecture may provide the basis for a very nice luxury car, but makes for an ersatz M. The very characteristics you hold dear are an anathema to most M drivers. M eschews isolation in pursuit of engaging, visceral and above all communicative. Many aficionados of M deem the F10 M5 to be an oxymoron.

BTW although the F10 M5 is not my cup of tea - too big and heavy for me - I do respect it and I am pleased BMW had the guts to build it. The M5 is an engineering marvel.
That's true. The M5 has been "hurt" the most on the F10 chassis.

Though, if you ask me, the current M5 as a holistic product is the best thing BMW has ever built. I tend to agree with Top Gears review of it ("possibly the best car in the world"). It's kind of "everything you need in one car". Bank vault solid, quiet as it wants to be, yet brutally capable and powerful. Yes it isn't an extremist like the previous models, but if you told me that I could only drive one car for the rest of my life, I'd probably pick the F10 M5 as it delivers pretty much everything in excess all at once.
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  #14  
Old 11-08-2013, 08:42 PM
Bmwlvr60 Bmwlvr60 is offline
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Car Magazines never test the 550... we are the black sheep
Which makes absolutely no sense. Your 550 has the best combination of power, performance, handling, electronics, and luxury of any under $100K car out there.
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  #15  
Old 11-09-2013, 03:14 AM
bjayfan bjayfan is offline
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Fact is BMW over-engineered this car for the Midsize Luxury Sedan segment, using a 7 Series chassis which houses also a Rolls Royce Ghost it's TOO stiff, TOO quiet, TOO smooth. It's everything an expensive Luxury car is supposed to be, and attains that by being essentially a much more inherently expensive car than what its MSRP suggests and so much so that those who crave a rawer, louder, rougher, more connected feel (i.e what many would also consider a "cheaper" base of a car) lambast it. Funny.
That's a pretty good description, your passion is definitely up front.

The real bone of contention is what you call connected as that has real meaning to not only the stereotypical reviewer, but also to historical segment of BMW's customers. The F10 is a rather large shift from past 5 series in that in the past the emphasis or priority was in fact maintaining that connected feel. The F10 has much more of a priority to luxury, and while you can argue the interior or other aspects of luxury, the F10 dares to adapt the connection of the F10 to a luxury priority.

It's not that it isn't connected, just that it's connected in a different way, and BMW did it in a car that had some spectacular history based specifically in it's sport's connection. When you stop thinking in terms of cheap or luxury, better or worse, and just realize that it's just different, then you can come to terms with it and decide what you want. It's a choice.

People accept many choices without contention: I'm a chocolate ice cream person, absolutely love it. I see no reason to be critical to those that prefer strawberry, vanilla or rocky road.

While many are critical of BMW I think they are on a roll, and their sales show they haven't made a serious mistake, regardless of the vocal minority. The F10 is a great car and based on sales (the only real measure in the auto industry) it's absolutely clear that many more agree than not.

The CTS, it's a great car also, but in a different way. Perhaps it's rocky road, I'll stick to chocolate.
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  #16  
Old 11-09-2013, 04:15 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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How may times do ya'll have to blame the magazines instead of just accepting that the F10 has gone soft and they don't like the car? It is what it is, and all the magazines are saying the same thing about the car. I personally like my BMW because it does what I want it to do. I don't live where my commute includes lots of twisty roads - I spend most of my time in the car on Houston freeways and suburban boulevards. BMW has learned that my driving is more typical and that the features the magazines complain about are exactly what most people want in a $70,000 sedan. I accept what the magazines are saying.

BTW, the "LCI" is a joke. I can't even believe they are testing the car as an updated car the changes are so minor. I'll bet that most owners can't even tell the difference in the cars seeing them drive down the road, and functional changes are just as minor.
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  #17  
Old 11-11-2013, 08:05 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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How may times do ya'll have to blame the magazines instead of just accepting that the F10 has gone soft and they don't like the car? It is what it is, and all the magazines are saying the same thing about the car. I personally like my BMW because it does what I want it to do. I don't live where my commute includes lots of twisty roads - I spend most of my time in the car on Houston freeways and suburban boulevards. BMW has learned that my driving is more typical and that the features the magazines complain about are exactly what most people want in a $70,000 sedan. I accept what the magazines are saying.

BTW, the "LCI" is a joke. I can't even believe they are testing the car as an updated car the changes are so minor. I'll bet that most owners can't even tell the difference in the cars seeing them drive down the road, and functional changes are just as minor.
I have to concur. Don't get me wrong - I like my car and given the options available I would do it again - but it is a shadow of its former self. Its not that the F10 is bad car, its just that the E60 was such a superb car.
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  #18  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:31 PM
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I have to concur. Don't get me wrong - I like my car and given the options available I would do it again - but it is a shadow of its former self. Its not that the F10 is bad car, its just that the E60 was such a superb car.
Yet I thought the E60 looked and felt like a car too crude and cheap for this class and the F10 finally re-arrived as a competitor in this segment (of course as a follow up to the revered E39).

I've had 5 Series' around me practically my whole life and I guess the difference here is that I never saw it as a sporty-first car. I saw it as a Luxury Sedan with sporty characteristics, which is how I feel about the F10. If BMW re-makes an E60 followup in terms of appearance, interior ambiance and characteristics chances are I'll go back to Mercedes for the next E Class (and thus miss the BMW-like sportiness intentions that do still sit fairly mutedly within the F10 that you can't find from Mercedes).

It's funny how the perceptions of the E60 VS F10 fare. Difference is that I guarantee if BMW released an "E60 V2" many of those the F10 brought onboard would go running for the hills. Maybe for the next 5er BMW can somehow please both extremist sides in us, but it seems almost impossible.
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Old 11-12-2013, 06:54 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Yet I thought the E60 looked and felt like a car too crude and cheap for this class and the F10 finally re-arrived as a competitor in this segment (of course as a follow up to the revered E39).

I've had 5 Series' around me practically my whole life and I guess the difference here is that I never saw it as a sporty-first car. I saw it as a Luxury Sedan with sporty characteristics, which is how I feel about the F10. If BMW re-makes an E60 followup in terms of appearance, interior ambiance and characteristics chances are I'll go back to Mercedes for the next E Class (and thus miss the BMW-like sportiness intentions that do still sit fairly mutedly within the F10 that you can't find from Mercedes).

It's funny how the perceptions of the E60 VS F10 fare. Difference is that I guarantee if BMW released an "E60 V2" many of those the F10 brought onboard would go running for the hills. Maybe for the next 5er BMW can somehow please both extremist sides in us, but it seems almost impossible.

That's an interesting take -

I agree that the F10 has prettier lines and is more luxurious, but the driving and handling just are not on par with the E60. According to a german article (link around here somewhere) that is what they are trying for - a much lighter version of the F10 luxury. Fingers crossed - my lease is up at the end of 2015 - so perfect timing for the new 5, or an M4 - either way I am good.
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  #20  
Old 11-12-2013, 05:38 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Yet I thought the E60 looked and felt like a car too crude and cheap for this class and the F10 finally re-arrived as a competitor in this segment (of course as a follow up to the revered E39).

I've had 5 Series' around me practically my whole life and I guess the difference here is that I never saw it as a sporty-first car. I saw it as a Luxury Sedan with sporty characteristics, which is how I feel about the F10. If BMW re-makes an E60 followup in terms of appearance, interior ambiance and characteristics chances are I'll go back to Mercedes for the next E Class (and thus miss the BMW-like sportiness intentions that do still sit fairly mutedly within the F10 that you can't find from Mercedes).

It's funny how the perceptions of the E60 VS F10 fare. Difference is that I guarantee if BMW released an "E60 V2" many of those the F10 brought onboard would go running for the hills. Maybe for the next 5er BMW can somehow please both extremist sides in us, but it seems almost impossible.
The E60 was an awesome car - dynamically unsurpassed by anything that's hit the market since it was released. Truly a choice car for the enthusiast, and better than the E39 in every way.
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  #21  
Old 11-12-2013, 05:55 PM
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The E60 is perhaps one of the ugliest cars BMW has ever produced...it's interior is a veritable joke compared to the F10...it did drive nicely when new...


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Old 11-12-2013, 06:15 PM
bjayfan bjayfan is offline
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The E60 was an awesome car - dynamically unsurpassed by anything that's hit the market since it was released. Truly a choice car for the enthusiast, and better than the E39 in every way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihumphrey View Post
The E60 is perhaps one of the ugliest cars BMW has ever produced...it's interior is a veritable joke compared to the F10...it did drive nicely when new...
There it is, two opinions. No right or wrong, just two opinions.

Not quite Beta vs. VHS.
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Old 11-12-2013, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
F10 architecture may provide the basis for a very nice luxury car, but makes for an ersatz M. The very characteristics you hold dear are an anathema to most M drivers. M eschews isolation in pursuit of engaging, visceral and above all communicative. Many aficionados of M deem the F10 M5 to be an oxymoron.

BTW although the F10 M5 is not my cup of tea - too big and heavy for me - I do respect it and I am pleased BMW had the guts to build it. The M5 is an engineering marvel.
Coming from the GT defender, lover and who finds it engaging it is amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
+1

- the GT is not a Touring substitute - different markets (I owned a Touring-E39)

- BMWNA has done a very poor job defining the F07

- Yes - it is fashionable in certain F10 circles to bash the F07 - in some weird way bashing reaffirms that one is a "true" BMW enthusiast. Some F10ers offer genuine criticism rooted in the F07's seven series based architecture - generally F10ers do not like that each new BMW generation grows larger and heavier. To the extent the F07 is a BMW expression of larger and heavier - it represents that general threat, and many do not evaluate the F07 on its own terms.

- The 5 GT should have never been named a "5" - as we all know here, but many on the F10 forum do not fully appreciate and/or understand, the 5 GT is a variant of the F01. The F10ers cannot identify with the F07 - see little relationship to their cars, and in general hate all things with a "hatch". I consider this a fundamental source of tension and a HUGE misstep on the part of BMW. The GT is its own very unique special thing - we understand it but most do not.

- "GT" - GT Redefined - "experience something for the first time" - OK I get it and I can and have argued vigorously in the affirmative that the GT embodies the spirit of a true "gran turismo". Understandably for most, GT means fast luxury 2 + 2. BMWNA has never actively and/or effectively made the case on behalf of the GT. I drive my 550i GT is a "spirited" manner. The 5 GT is indeed very special - offering luxury, speed, an engaging ride, enhanced functionality, and a bold athletic presence - a GT redefined for a new age. If car savvy guys on the F10 forum do not understand the parameters of the argument - they do not have to agree - BMWNA has fundamentally failed to frame the debate.

- I suspect, most F10ers have never seen a F07 in the wild, much less driven one. Driving my 550i GT and a F10 back to back, I find my F07 to be more engaging. Many F10ers, if they had the opportunity, might reach a similar conclusion. As previously stated many F10ers offer genuine criticism, unfortunately, there are a few who enjoy being bullies.
I have never backed down from a bully in my life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
I traded my 335i for the GT.

The GT is what I need, and I have been pleasantly surprised that it is so engaging and capable. My 550i GT is just an incredible car - puts a smile on my face everyday! I do yearn for a MT as a second ride ...I'm working on it....

Last edited by bm323; 11-12-2013 at 06:58 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-12-2013, 06:54 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: singapore
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Mein Auto: 2013 F10
My recent post

long term test review: M5 vs Panamera GTS

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/...ong-term-test/ (see his views month 4 and month 9, which appear to have shifted: "Just to keep twisting the knife, letís throw in a rival too, say the BMW M5, which has 128bhp more power, costs £18k less, and when you drive it hard itís better than the Panamera Ė and every other super-saloon on sale.")

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/...m-test-review/ (see months 10 and 11)

and from CAR

RS6 vs M5

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/...13-CAR-review/
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  #25  
Old 11-12-2013, 08:02 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is online now
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Location: MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,756
Mein Auto: '13 X5M, 650xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by GXAlan View Post
Of the large print magazines in the US, you have Road and Track, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, and yes, Consumer Reports.
Road & Track, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, and Consumer Reports? I'll disregard the last one completely. So, doesn't anyone read AutoWeek? It's the magazine that beats the big 3 to reviews on new models. They also have a habit of driving different cars than the Pete, rePete, and 3Pete big 3 mags. AW even tested the 550xi. I don't think I would normally bother with the big 3, but at only about $5/yr, it's kind hard not to subscribe to them.
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