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F22 / F23 2 Series (2014 - Current)
The 2 Series coupe is the replacement for the E82/E88 1 series coupe. Production starts in November 2013 on the 228i (N20) and M235i (N55) coupes. Look for them in dealerships in February 2014. The convertible F23 2 series will follow in the fall of 2014.

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  #1  
Old 10-29-2013, 08:50 AM
Bernie@Bimmerfest Bernie@Bimmerfest is offline
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Is the 2 series too expensive vs the A3 and CLA?

”all three”

Last week BMW and Audi both released pricing and information on their new entry-level luxury vehicles. BMW offers the 2 Series Coupe and Audi the A3 Sedan. Mercedes also has an offering to this market, the CLA, which has already been released.

This looks to be a popular market for these car makers. Getting customers in to the brand at a lower price point and doing it with some pretty good looking cars. All the prices aren't quite in line though. Audi's 2015 A3 starts at around $29,900, as well as the Mercedes-Benz CLA 250. BMW's 2 Series looks to be a bit off the mark, starting with a base price of $33,025 for the 228i.

With the Mercedes CLA supposedly already selling quite well at ~$29k, where does that leave the BMW 2 Series, coming in over $3000 higher? The 2 Series is also only a coupe, while the others are sedans. I guess that can be good and bad.

Granted, some would say you are paying for the driving experience. With the BMW you get rear wheel drive, a fantastic gearbox, and some powerful motors, but are these things worth the extra cost? Which of the three would you choose?

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  #2  
Old 10-29-2013, 09:21 AM
3000ways 3000ways is offline
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I don't think so

Honestly I don't really see the 2 series vs. A3/CLA as competitors. The 228i is RWD and both the A3 and CLA250 are FWD. Also the more expensive versions of these cars don't match up either. The M235i is RWD also and both the S3 and CLA45 AMG are AWD. Then you throw in the fact that 2 Series is a coupe and both the A3 and CLA are sedans. I don't see a lot in common other than these cars being entry level vehicles for their manufacturer.

I believe that in reality, the 2 series has more in common with Ford's 2015 Mustang than it does with the CLA and A3. Especially if the Mustang goes on the diet it is suppose to go on, then your looking at a BMW 228i that is a RWD Turbo Coupe vs. a 2015 Mustang that will also be a RWD Turbo Coupe (when they release the turbo Mustang).

Now I am not saying that the Mustang and 2 series are true competitors, I am just pointing out the fact that the 2 series has more in common with a Mustang than it does with the CLA/A3. Also I believe that the CLA45 AMG and Audi S3, will be far more competitive with the new Subaru WRX STi and the new Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (if they actually decide to make one) than the 2 series. I know people think BMW, Mercedes, and Audi, they must always be competitors, but that isn't always the case. Who knows though, it wouldn't surprise me, if the M235i gets an AWD option, the M235ix.

Last edited by 3000ways; 10-29-2013 at 09:29 AM. Reason: Wanted to add more
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:04 AM
mohrgan mohrgan is offline
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I would gladly pay $5K more for the Two.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:57 AM
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A3 has a 170 hp engine at that price.
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Old 10-31-2013, 04:26 PM
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Is the 2 series too expensive vs the A3 and CLA?

These cars are absolutely competitors. Once you get the 2.0 in the A3 the price differential narrows. Expect the Audi to provide better standard equipment (leather)


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Old 11-01-2013, 07:19 AM
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The CLA coupe (as Merc calls it) may start at $29,900 but there's no way anyone would buy a base CLA. The premium package adds a decent amount of desirable options. That said, having driven the CLA I can't see this being a real competitor besides looks. The interior is ridiculously small even in the front passenger seat. The 200hp engine is also pretty soulless. The CLA is a beautiful car though and I wish it would have worked out for me. I personally never consider Audi. No matter the configuration (besides S variants) they seem overpriced for what you get.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:42 AM
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Unhappy The Answer is YES!

The One Series is way too expensive! Both dealers in my area only keep a couple in stock. When prospective buyers consider the price of the One and see the Three is just a few bucks more, they buy the Three.

I think I can extrapolate the same argument to the Two. Getting a Two with the go fast stuff, leather, and maybe an M Edition will push the price close to $50K and perhaps over if you want it all.

The new Audi A3 is a very nice car for the price, and it comes with leather and most of the amenities for around $30K. For a couple of bucks more, you can get Quatro, the very best all-wheel setup available. I don't think the Two will even come close to competing with it if the buyer is looking for a practical family sedan.

The CLA is kind of an odd offering. Take a look at the latest review in R&T (I think?). It wasn't very kind calling it half a Mercedes at half the price.

Anyway, my money is on the A3! But what do I care? I'm looking at a MB C63 AMG!

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Old 11-01-2013, 09:28 AM
msej449 msej449 is offline
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Just swapped A3 for 3 Series

I've just swapped my 2.0L 170bhp A3 Sportsback for a 3 Series.

Pros of the A3 are that it's a big interior space compared to exterior dimensions, and the Sportsback that I had could carry some very big loads. However, the suspension is rock-hard, even on the 17" wheels that I used to replace the standard 18". And Audi drops the suspension on the bigger-spec Sport and S-Line models and on the bigger engines. Quatttro is fine, but if you want auto+quattro, that's only become available (in Europe) last month, and only on the 1.8 petrol. The S2 is a fantastic machine and I considered it, but there's only so much low suspension, low-profile banging and crashing I can tolerate nowadays.

The 3 Series can be configured $competitively to a similar-spec'd A3 and the ride and handling would be in a different league. So I guess a 2 Series will be a very serious alternative.

Oh, and on a personal preference - I hate all-black/grey interiors beloved of Audi. I can configure a BMW for much lighter interiors. But I appreciate that this may not be an issue for many people.
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:13 AM
bmw325 bmw325 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msej449 View Post
I've just swapped my 2.0L 170bhp A3 Sportsback for a 3 Series.

Oh, and on a personal preference - I hate all-black/grey interiors beloved of Audi. I can configure a BMW for much lighter interiors. But I appreciate that this may not be an issue for many people.
Atleast on the A4 Audi seems to have more/ better interior options than BMW...
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Old 11-08-2013, 05:45 PM
AJPITT AJPITT is offline
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Didn't I read somewhere here that the 1 series will become fwd and possibly a sedsn to compete with the cla and a3 while the 2 becomes the new 1? If this is the case, these 3 cars are not competitors.
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BestCS View Post
The new Audi A3 is a very nice car for the price, and it comes with leather and most of the amenities for around $30K. For a couple of bucks more, you can get Quatro, the very best all-wheel setup available. I don't think the Two will even come close to competing with it if the buyer is looking for a practical family sedan.
Quattro may be great but the A3 uses Haldex, which is not so great. Is the base car in the US the 170 hp 1.8L? if so that's not comparable to either 228i or M235i.

Judging from reviews out of Europe, the A3 is just like the rest of Audis lineup - isolated, character-less drive. It doesn't sound like it's any more fun than an A4 just cause it's smaller. I think the GTI is the way to go, cheaper and more fun to drive than the A3.
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:53 PM
tonyb.ca tonyb.ca is offline
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Is the price too high? yes
Why not, so long as they feel they can get away with charging a premium.
Will I pay it: likely


The bigger question, that I've posted earlier, is the trim levels that are available. More to the point, having just been through the exercise, a VW in the highest trim level comes in at 33K for the small diesel (my preference, likely not yours), the Audi tips the scale starting at about 36K-40K. Do this to a BMW and you hit 57K in a hurry!

And yes, the C series Benz is cheaper by a LOT in Canada.

1 or 3 series doesn't seem to matter.

OK, I'll bite and probably still pay the premium. Now try to get the car I want. Fuel economy is getting important since I tend to keep my cars and look 10+ years down the road, so let's get a small diesel. Handling and seats are also important, so let's go M Sport. I want Navi for sure. Might as well throw in leather seats and access, so we've now hit all the high cost packages, and we're knockin' at the door of $60K.

Now what I don't want. I really don't need or want X drive, that's just more to screw up. I don't want an automatic since I like to chose my gears, and besides I don't need the maintenance headaches of new automatics. ... Well, so much for the diesel. If you want standard and RWD, you get a gas engine. No choice.

Of course, I can get what I want if I move to Germany for a year ... Füssen is nice this time of the year ... hmmm ...
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Old 11-09-2013, 11:25 AM
msej449 msej449 is offline
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I had a big problem with my Audi 2.0L TDi diesel 170bhp engine with a manual gearshift: This has a slightly odd power profile and almost too much torque. I had the clutch replaced under warranty after it failed following four hours in a long traffic jam. The torque is substantial but only if you're at the right rpm - I was still stalling it occasionally four years after first driving it, when I chose too low a gear. It's probably OK in auto form, but not as a manual. I think that is was a great engine when initially introduced but my feeling is that the BMW 4-Cyl diesels have overtaken it in terms of smoothness and flexibility.
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Old 11-11-2013, 09:38 AM
aardvark aardvark is offline
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Originally Posted by BestCS View Post
The new Audi A3 is a very nice car for the price, and it comes with leather and most of the amenities for around $30K
Frankly, I'd rather have a better engine than std leather and a sunroof. I don't even like sunroofs.

Obviously, Audi is targeting a certain entry-level luxury buyer with the A3 sedan, and the car will undoubtedly sell well.

The 2-series is more about entry-level performance than luxury. Sure, you can load your 2er with amenities if you want them, but BMW isn't forcing them on you. I prefer BMW's approach.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:19 PM
tonyb.ca tonyb.ca is offline
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Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
Frankly, I'd rather have a better engine than std leather and a sunroof. I don't even like sunroofs.

Obviously, Audi is targeting a certain entry-level luxury buyer with the A3 sedan, and the car will undoubtedly sell well.

The 2-series is more about entry-level performance than luxury. Sure, you can load your 2er with amenities if you want them, but BMW isn't forcing them on you. I prefer BMW's approach.
Interesting, but I'd sure like to know where this configuration information is to be found?

The above certainly does not hold true for the current 1 series. Yes, standard seats are Leatherette, but this is not a particular advantage IMHO. Throw M Sport (a must have) on one of these and you're well north of 40K real quick in Canada anyhow. With the packages, and I believe the US is similar, prices climb and "bloat" happens quickly. The packages are a sore point. As to eliminating luxury items, base trim for a 128i is already bloated way more than my first E30 was, and I don't see it getting better.

Not being a big fan of FWD for performance, I might tend to agree with you regarding performance. On the quality of motor issue, however, once BOTH vehicles are reduced to a turbo 4-banger at ~2l displacement, so I think this becomes rather academic. Audi has a longer track record here, for better or worse.

Personally, I feel RWD is still the major selling point.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:42 PM
tonyb.ca tonyb.ca is offline
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Originally Posted by BestCS View Post
The One Series is way too expensive! Both dealers in my area only keep a couple in stock. When prospective buyers consider the price of the One and see the Three is just a few bucks more, they buy the Three.
To your point, not by much, but in Canada the base trim 320i at $35,990 CAD is actually CHEAPER than the base 128i at $36,000 CAD. The 328i is still $7,300 more though, but both 3's are still turbo 4-bangers. Key is that the 128i is still an unblown 6.

For me, the jury is still out on the turbo for a gas engine. I suppose by the time I have to replace my current ride(s), I'll have to get used to it.
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:51 AM
tonyb.ca tonyb.ca is offline
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Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
Frankly, I'd rather have a better engine than std leather and a sunroof. I don't even like sunroofs.

Obviously, Audi is targeting a certain entry-level luxury buyer with the A3 sedan, and the car will undoubtedly sell well.

The 2-series is more about entry-level performance than luxury. Sure, you can load your 2er with amenities if you want them, but BMW isn't forcing them on you. I prefer BMW's approach.
Incidentally, in general if I am not after a small coupe' I find the OPPOSITE true for BMW versus VW group. Specifically, if I want a small diesel, the premium I pay at VW group is about $2K CAD (give or take), and I can still get a relatively base trim level. Try doing the same with BMW, and you get X-drive, automatic and a $12K jump in trim levels whether you like it or not. This still doesn't get you the stuff you WANT which again bumps you another 10K for an equivalent configuration. The result:

A Golf or Jetta TDI tips the scales in the $25K to $30K range, and the Audi A3 is about $6K more. Don't quote me on the Audi prices because I haven't negotiated those in detail, but I have the quotes for the others.

The BMW 328d on the other hand, similarly equipped, but because of all of the junk you DIDN'T ask for tips the scales at $48K base and bloats to at least $55K before you are done, $60K if you want the same toys as the 30K Golf.

In Europe, simply due to different marketing & available configurations, I can bring things much more in line and only have to pay about a $10K premium. Please do not try to explain to me that trim levels have anything to do with government regulations. I am not buying it (literally).

BTW: I can build a similar gas 320i for about 10K more than a gas Jetta with similar trim levels, so it just seems to be the small diesel that they hit you on, but then if I am going for a gas engine for this purpose, it opens up a whole new can of worms.

The solution: Wait 2 or 3 years until somebody else eats the depreciation. It doesn't work for diesels though because people do not tend to get rid of them (VW diesels) and BMW is too new at the game over here. Also for the $10K-20K premium for the BMW diesel, I can buy an AWFUL lot of gas.

Last edited by tonyb.ca; 11-12-2013 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:19 PM
WaxComb WaxComb is offline
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I don't think the 2-series and the A3/CLA compete because I feel the 2 series is more of an enthusiast car. You know the type: F30 came out -> WTF it's a Lexus. E9X came out -> WTF too big and heavy. E46 came out -> WTF too big and heavy. blah blah blah.

If the CLA does well, I think BMW would bring out the 1-series sedan here, but if not BMW already has a small premium car -> MINI.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:49 PM
bmw325 bmw325 is offline
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Originally Posted by WaxComb View Post
I don't think the 2-series and the A3/CLA compete because I feel the 2 series is more of an enthusiast car. You know the type: F30 came out -> WTF it's a Lexus. E9X came out -> WTF too big and heavy. E46 came out -> WTF too big and heavy. blah blah blah.

If the CLA does well, I think BMW would bring out the 1-series sedan here, but if not BMW already has a small premium car -> MINI.
Good point. BMW has less of a need for a CLA type car than Mercedes due to owning Mini. That being said, if they do create a sedan off the next gen FWD 1 series platform I wouldn't be surprised if they brought it over. As long as it has a trunk, BMWNA is game.
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