Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > The Best of Bimmerfest! > Motorsports, Racing & Track

Motorsports, Racing & Track
From Formula One to Auto-X, discuss everything related to going fast here...

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 06-24-2004, 05:47 PM
Nick325xiT 5spd's Avatar
Nick325xiT 5spd Nick325xiT 5spd is offline
Registered User
Location: Bethesda, MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,861
Send a message via ICQ to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via AIM to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via Yahoo to Nick325xiT 5spd
Mein Auto: M3 & 323i/999 KP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Yew
I'm not a very good or dedicated autoxer, but it seems to me that shortening one's braking distance is about the last thing on the list of things to do when you want to decrease your lap times. The order I've learned (for the track at least) is:

1. Getting on the throttle earlier in a turn.
2. Carrying more speed through the turn.
3. Decreasing braking distance.

That's in order of decreasing effectiveness, with decreasing brake distance a very distant third, because of the amount of straightline speed and distance each one affects.

--Andre
Yes, but autoxing in stock class only gives you so many things to do. And to be fair to Andy, he's worked on every legal part of his car that would do the other two. He just did not/does not understand that performance pads really don't do **** for low speeds on a decent car.
__________________
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD Duramax LBZ/Allison 6-speed
2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black
1999 323i KP/GTS2 Alpinweiß
1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan
1989 325is S50B30US Alpinweiß/Black
1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black S50B32 (321hp, ITBs)


Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-25-2004, 06:45 AM
Andy's Avatar
Andy Andy is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: USA
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,586
Mein Auto: E30, M3, 540i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
And to be fair to Andy, he's worked on every legal part of his car that would do the other two.
Yes, this is true.

I guess I should further clarify why I think I need/want better pads/braking... There have been a couple of events this year where the course had a long straight away into a tight turn. Speeds got up to 45 to 55 MPH down the straight with really hard braking at the end of the straight.

At the beginning of the year, better braking wouldn't have really helped all that much because I didn't have the experience behind me to really know my braking distance and would tend to brake a little early just to be safe.

I'm still working on perfecting this, but have become a lot better at knowing exactly when to brake hard before the corner. I am now working on trying to brake at the very last possible moment and have found my braking distance isn't as short as I like (is it ever? ), so I have thought about getting a set of high performance pads to see if I can shorten that distance as much as possible.

Another thing that I'm looking for, is a more solid brake pedal feel. Right now, I feel as if I have too much brake pedal travel before the brakes really start to bite. I'd like to get a little more bite when the pedal is first applied. One thing I did recently, was replace my brake fluid with ATE Super Blue. This didn't seem to help the pedal feel at all, but another reason I did this, was because I knew I would be attending a BMWCCA DE this year or next.

Anyway, that’s the long of it. Any ideas on how I can shorten my braking distance and/or get more initial bite when the pedal is applied (and stay stock legal) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Andy


PS – Sorry Nick to hijack you’re thread. Mods, if you want to turn this into a new thread, please feel free to do so. Thanks.
__________________
- 1987 BMW 325is
- 2002 BMW M3
- 2003 BMW 540i Sport
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-25-2004, 07:00 AM
·clyde·'s Avatar
·clyde· ·clyde· is offline
OMGWTFBBQ
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,265
Mein Auto:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy
Any ideas on how I can shorten my braking distance
  • Stickier/lighter tires (if you weren't already on what are just about the stickiest/lightest tires you can use)
  • lighter wheels
  • lighter exhaust
  • make sure that you are use the special lightweight ZHP air in your tires
  • become anorexic to lighten the driver
  • use lightweight kevlar helmet
  • drive naked to lose the weight of your clothes
  • think lightweight thoughts when on course
  • get used to and deal with the fact that are driving a heavy ass vehicle
__________________
OH NOES!!!!!1 MY CAR HAS T3H UND3R5T33R5555!!!!!!1oneone!!!!11

Team WTF?!
What are you gonna do?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-25-2004, 07:01 AM
Nick325xiT 5spd's Avatar
Nick325xiT 5spd Nick325xiT 5spd is offline
Registered User
Location: Bethesda, MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,861
Send a message via ICQ to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via AIM to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via Yahoo to Nick325xiT 5spd
Mein Auto: M3 & 323i/999 KP
I don't see any reason to split this off. Brakes are quite relevant to the thread. Mods, please don't.

Now, that said, you only have so much traction, and your brakes are more than adequate. I'm actually switching to Axxis Deluxe Plusses for a couple of reasons. 1) I'm lazy. 2) I'd like MORE pedal travel and LESS initial bite because I tend to lock the brakes up.

The ONLY way you're going to shorten your brake distance is with better braking technique and/or more traction. I'll let you know how much I like a 275/285 F/R Hoho setup when I wear out my current set.

If you want a firmer pedal, you don't want the Hawk HPS. They have much less initial bite than OEM. The other thing to consider is that your friend may like the fact that the HP+ don't bite to well cold for the same reasons I've described here. And if they do get warm, remember that he has twice as much power, the same weight, and one hell of a lot more tire.

One final point: ATE Superblue absorbs water very quickly. Don't even think abotu going to a track event with fluid that's more than three months old. I've found that it gets noticably mushier on the street in that time. ...and I would switch to Typ200 before your brake system is too badly stained.
__________________
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD Duramax LBZ/Allison 6-speed
2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black
1999 323i KP/GTS2 Alpinweiß
1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan
1989 325is S50B30US Alpinweiß/Black
1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black S50B32 (321hp, ITBs)


Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-25-2004, 07:03 AM
Nick325xiT 5spd's Avatar
Nick325xiT 5spd Nick325xiT 5spd is offline
Registered User
Location: Bethesda, MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,861
Send a message via ICQ to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via AIM to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via Yahoo to Nick325xiT 5spd
Mein Auto: M3 & 323i/999 KP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·
  • Stickier/lighter tires (if you weren't already on what are just about the stickiest/lightest tires you can use)
  • lighter wheels
  • lighter exhaust
  • make sure that you are use the special lightweight ZHP air in your tires
  • become anorexic to lighten the driver
  • use lightweight kevlar helmet
  • drive naked to lose the weight of your clothes
  • think lightweight thoughts when on course
  • get used to and deal with the fact that are driving a heavy ass vehicle
You forgot going through the dealer's garbage and taking the most badly worn out rotors you can find.
__________________
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD Duramax LBZ/Allison 6-speed
2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black
1999 323i KP/GTS2 Alpinweiß
1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan
1989 325is S50B30US Alpinweiß/Black
1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black S50B32 (321hp, ITBs)


Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 06-25-2004, 07:33 AM
Andy's Avatar
Andy Andy is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: USA
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,586
Mein Auto: E30, M3, 540i
Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·
  • drive naked to lose the weight of your clothes
I already do this... butt for other reasons.



Thanks for the pointers gentleman... just looking for every possible advantage I can get. Getting your butt whipped by cars that are 500 lbs lighter then yours is not fun... is to be expected, yeah... but not fun!! Although, it is making me faster!!
__________________
- 1987 BMW 325is
- 2002 BMW M3
- 2003 BMW 540i Sport
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-25-2004, 09:58 AM
Mr Paddle.Shift Mr Paddle.Shift is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: bmw
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,848
Mein Auto: bmw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
If you want a firmer pedal, you don't want the Hawk HPS. They have much less initial bite `than OEM. The other thing to consider is that your friend may like the fact that the HP+ don't bite to well cold for the same reasons I've described here. And if they do get warm, remember that he has twice as much power, the same weight, and one hell of a lot more tire.
Actually HP + works very well so far for my application. Just warm it up during the warm-up lap and you're good to go. A bit noisy for the streets though. It's not that linear however. Has performed very well for those 2-day, hot afternoon track events out here in calif.
__________________


Technik Engineering ASA Stage 1 Supercharged E46 M54B25.
NASA TTD So Cal. Track blog: VSETrack

Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-25-2004, 10:48 AM
Nick325xiT 5spd's Avatar
Nick325xiT 5spd Nick325xiT 5spd is offline
Registered User
Location: Bethesda, MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,861
Send a message via ICQ to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via AIM to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via Yahoo to Nick325xiT 5spd
Mein Auto: M3 & 323i/999 KP
Vince, we're talking about autox with a maximum speed of 55MPH. The issue here is that Andy did not (possibly still does not) understand that traction is the issues, and that more braking force will only make the car harder to drive.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-25-2004, 10:52 AM
Mr Paddle.Shift Mr Paddle.Shift is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: bmw
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,848
Mein Auto: bmw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Vince, we're talking about autox with a maximum speed of 55MPH. The issue here is that Andy did not (possibly still does not) understand that traction is the issues, and that more braking force will only make the car harder to drive.
ahh...I skimmed through everything. Btw what's an AutoX?
__________________


Technik Engineering ASA Stage 1 Supercharged E46 M54B25.
NASA TTD So Cal. Track blog: VSETrack

Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-25-2004, 10:54 AM
Nick325xiT 5spd's Avatar
Nick325xiT 5spd Nick325xiT 5spd is offline
Registered User
Location: Bethesda, MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,861
Send a message via ICQ to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via AIM to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via Yahoo to Nick325xiT 5spd
Mein Auto: M3 & 323i/999 KP
Autocross. Slow speed, timed event through a course defined by cones.
__________________
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD Duramax LBZ/Allison 6-speed
2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black
1999 323i KP/GTS2 Alpinweiß
1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan
1989 325is S50B30US Alpinweiß/Black
1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black S50B32 (321hp, ITBs)


Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-25-2004, 11:18 AM
Andy's Avatar
Andy Andy is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: USA
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,586
Mein Auto: E30, M3, 540i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
The issue here is that Andy did not (possibly still does not) understand that traction is the issues, and that more braking force will only make the car harder to drive.


Come on Nick, I'm not as dumb as you think I am.
__________________
- 1987 BMW 325is
- 2002 BMW M3
- 2003 BMW 540i Sport
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-25-2004, 11:37 AM
Nick325xiT 5spd's Avatar
Nick325xiT 5spd Nick325xiT 5spd is offline
Registered User
Location: Bethesda, MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,861
Send a message via ICQ to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via AIM to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via Yahoo to Nick325xiT 5spd
Mein Auto: M3 & 323i/999 KP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy


Come on Nick, I'm not as dumb as you think I am.
__________________
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD Duramax LBZ/Allison 6-speed
2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black
1999 323i KP/GTS2 Alpinweiß
1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan
1989 325is S50B30US Alpinweiß/Black
1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black S50B32 (321hp, ITBs)


Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-25-2004, 11:43 AM
Andy's Avatar
Andy Andy is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: USA
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,586
Mein Auto: E30, M3, 540i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd

__________________
- 1987 BMW 325is
- 2002 BMW M3
- 2003 BMW 540i Sport
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-27-2004, 03:08 AM
Pinecone's Avatar
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
M Mad
Location: Maryland
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 10,482
Mein Auto: M Roadster/M3
Nick, I also told you the fluid wasn't up to it. I have a case of Motul RBF 600 in the garage for track events.

I have been running the Turner Cool Willy track pads and like them. You can drive them to/from the track, but with dust and squeal. But much nicer to do them at home than at the track.

Clyde, I am not sure that this is true with modern ABS systems. Modern multichannel ABS systems allow different amounts of braking to deal with differing amounts of traction for each wheel. NO driver can do this on their own. Also the cycle speed of the system is much faster than a driver can fine tune the braking force.

Also look at racing rules, most racing doesn't allow ABS. And those that do, give the cars with ABS a weight penalty, but teams still opt to run with ABS, Makes me think that current systems can work better than the driver.
__________________
Terry Carraway

'95 Alpine M3 LTW
'00 Dakar M Roadster
'02 Topaz M3
Red/White SRF #4 (Chassis 561)
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-27-2004, 08:35 AM
TeamM3's Avatar
TeamM3 TeamM3 is offline
Living on the redline
Location: 10,000 RPM Heaven Lane
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 27,404
Mein Auto: a BMW killer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
The big difference, though, is that you will NEVER brake anywhere near as hard at an autox as you do at the track. It’s a big adjustment and it’s tough to wrap your head around the idea that you’ve GOT time when you’re blazing down the straight at 145MPH.

I think you mean "never brake anywhere near as long at an autox"

SRF is a good choice, I won't use anything else

Andy, you aren't Danny Popp , stick with HPS, the + pads are too grabby for all but the smoothest drivers, but for autox there's no reason to change the OE pads until they're used up
__________________
.

Yesterday's history, tomorrow's a mystery, but today is a gift; that's why it's called the present

.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 06-27-2004, 01:06 PM
·clyde·'s Avatar
·clyde· ·clyde· is offline
OMGWTFBBQ
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,265
Mein Auto:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Clyde, I am not sure that this is true with modern ABS systems. Modern multichannel ABS systems allow different amounts of braking to deal with differing amounts of traction for each wheel. NO driver can do this on their own. Also the cycle speed of the system is much faster than a driver can fine tune the braking force.

Also look at racing rules, most racing doesn't allow ABS. And those that do, give the cars with ABS a weight penalty, but teams still opt to run with ABS, Makes me think that current systems can work better than the driver.
I see E46s visibly lock wheels briefly. Modern systems (for street cars) are certainly better than what were being used 10 years ago, but they still have some room left. Going a bit further, after once again forgetting to disengage DSC before my first run today, I'm beginning to wonder if leaving it on in the RX-8 is an actual hindrance to someone at my level. It's not invasive at all compared to the systems I've experienced in other cars (light years ahead of what's in the xiT and Z4) and it allows a fair amount of slip and/or rotation before I can feel it actually do anything.
__________________
OH NOES!!!!!1 MY CAR HAS T3H UND3R5T33R5555!!!!!!1oneone!!!!11

Team WTF?!
What are you gonna do?
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 06-27-2004, 04:49 PM
325ci.com 325ci.com is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: NYC, NY
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 84
Send a message via AIM to 325ci.com
Mein Auto: 2001 BMW 325Ci
i really liked your DE day write-up. i just came back from a 2-day Watkins Glen (NY) event (BMWCCA). i haven't done a track event in more than a year, so i know what you mean about going out there the first time. i tend to take it a bit too easy the first time out. and by the end of the first day, i'm flying through the track...
__________________
Mike Choi | Manhattan Island, NYC, NY, USA
'07 Lotus Exige S & '86 Toyota MR2 & '92 Toyota Celica AllTrac Turbo & '01 BMW 325Ci

Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 06-28-2004, 02:30 AM
Pinecone's Avatar
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
M Mad
Location: Maryland
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 10,482
Mein Auto: M Roadster/M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·
I see E46s visibly lock wheels briefly. Modern systems (for street cars) are certainly better than what were being used 10 years ago, but they still have some room left. Going a bit further, after once again forgetting to disengage DSC before my first run today, I'm beginning to wonder if leaving it on in the RX-8 is an actual hindrance to someone at my level. It's not invasive at all compared to the systems I've experienced in other cars (light years ahead of what's in the xiT and Z4) and it allows a fair amount of slip and/or rotation before I can feel it actually do anything.
But to find the limit without ABS, the driver will tend to lock a wheel then back off also.

And with ABS the tire shouldn't actually stop, just slow down a bit before the system releases some pressure.

I have videos we use in training of slow motion GM ABS in action, and while you can see the tire slow visibly, it never stops until just before the car stops.
__________________
Terry Carraway

'95 Alpine M3 LTW
'00 Dakar M Roadster
'02 Topaz M3
Red/White SRF #4 (Chassis 561)
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 06-28-2004, 06:14 AM
bren's Avatar
bren bren is offline
///Mpty pockets
Location: MD
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,963
Mein Auto: wankermatic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
And with ABS the tire shouldn't actually stop, just slow down a bit before the system releases some pressure
Well I did notice Nick actually lock-up his front tire in the stop box yesterday....enough to let off a small puff of smoke.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > The Best of Bimmerfest! > Motorsports, Racing & Track
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms