Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)

F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #226  
Old 02-13-2014, 06:53 AM
ksoze ksoze is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: MD
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 601
Mein Auto: 2011 E93 M3
Don't forget, the car company does not design these cars, their designers do. Hyundai hired one of the lead designers away from BMW DesignworksUSA in 2011. Chris Chapman designed the X5, 4 and the 1 series among other models for BMW. That is also how designs can end up in other iterations when the guys who actually design these cars shift onto different platforms and markets. Theft, no.
__________________
2011 E93 M3 Convertible JB/FR | 2002 E46 M3 Convertible | 2002 E53 X5 3.0 | 2000 E39 540i | 1998 E36 M3 | 1988 E28 M5 | 1987 E28 528i
Reply With Quote
  #227  
Old 02-13-2014, 07:01 AM
K-A's Avatar
K-A K-A is offline
Dark Knight
Location: U.S
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,215
Mein Auto: '13 BMW 535i M Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksoze View Post
I think K-A is getting a Hyundai soon - he's just slowly coming to the realization
Lol. Well it's save me a lot of money, so in that case it would make more sense that I not fight it and excuse their imitative ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Do those tail pipes look similar to you? Lexus had it since 2007:




I wouldn't say they look the same necessarily. Trapezoidal exhaust pipes weren't first done by that Lexus, were they? Now, the new Mercedes exhaust pipes (and maybe next gen Bimmers) are copying Lexus new "melty" exhaust tips (unfortunately). Even so, we're not talking blatant outright design ripoffs like what Hyundai/Kia do, we're talking a little bit here or there. The way BMW implemented those exhaust tips works far more uniformly with the design, the Lexus way just doesn't flow right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I think you have it backwards, in this case, BMW copy Lexus. That tailpipe design was introduce on the Lexus LS460 in 2007 and BMW change the angle on it and copy it in the 2011 550i. In essence, the Germans are doing the same thing as what the Asian car makers have been doing to them all these years, taking an existing design and making it better, more reliable and cost affective. Lets not forget, technologies such as variable valve timing, on time delivery and torque vectoring AWD were introduce by the Japanese and copied by the Germans.
That would of course be *IF* they improved upon it. BMW or the like, if taking things from others, will typically improve upon it. Hyundai has never done that, they take large scale design or engineering features, implement them into their own cars, but usually do it in a "budget" way from quality to feel. The previous gen Genesis was getting all the same ravings when it first launched, but as more are on the roads and the miles pile up, the underlying qualities get more exposed and you realize that it's not up to a fundamental engineering/quality spec as the Germans. Reliable, yes, but the actual tactile and perceived build "quality" shows things start aging, rattling or looking like they're falling apart sooner. The new Genesis may be different, but I wager the gap will probably be as large as usual, namely when the next 5/E come out in this segment with typically updated technology, etc.

As for the GS, we see everybody raving about it on forums, but never buying it. In fact, it seems nobody buys it, and it ain't because of the badge (Lexus has developed a cachet of their own), nor the price (they give them away now), but IMO clearly the way the car "speaks to you", the design refinement, tactile substantiality, and most importantly: Characteristic design identity that holds cachet.

I may be too frank here or sounding like I'm putting down the other cars for the sake of it.... it's really noble to say "this car offers more I want BMW/Mercedes/etc. to do the same at a lower price and I'm not a brand snob", but I think I'm speaking the way most feel but won't admit. If I'm not, then I think we'd all have a Lexus GS and orders for a Genesis or K900 right now.
__________________
'13 F10 BMW 535i Sport : Jet Black/Black-Anthracite : Premium & Technology Packages/Sport Auto Trans/Camera/Park Distance Control/Heated Seats/Tinted Windows/Blacked Out Markers/Performance Spoiler.

Ex M-B's: '11/'10/'06 E350's w/ AMG Sport Package, '02 S500 w/ Every Option.

Last edited by K-A; 02-13-2014 at 07:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #228  
Old 02-13-2014, 07:08 AM
dunderhi's Avatar
dunderhi dunderhi is online now
0-60 in 4 secs or less!
Location: MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,604
Mein Auto: '13 X5M, 650xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Do those tail pipes look similar to you? Lexus had it since 2007:




I remember discussions in this forum where members claimed that if one put four round exhaust tips on any car then one was a BMW ///M poseur. The fact that other manufacturers used quad tips didn't matter.

So, I get it that people want to feel special (or passionate) about the cars the have and since BMWs charges a premium (although they offer dirt cheap lease deals) owners seem to feel the need to protect their car decision. Let's face it, BMW is like any other car company, they have recalls, they have known issues (drivetrain malfunctions, drinking oil, tire bubbles, etc), they have significant depreciation, their traditional customers don't like their movement towards luxury comfort, they also copy features innovated by other companies, and a growing number of new buyers don't want to own them outside of warranty. BMW isn't perfect, but no automotive company is perfect. Yes, even Porsche, who has spent 50yrs proving they can overcome a bad design decision. Yeah you heard me.

I will certainly test drive a Hyundai or two before my next purchase. I admit that I didn't give the original Genesis much thought, but my desire to do another European Delivery limited my brand selection. I may pick up a German car just to do an ED, but both of my cars don't need to be German. I'll be sure to hang my head in shame if I see K-A out on the open road.
__________________


2013 X5M ........ 2013 650xi ...... 2011 550xi (ret) 2011 335d (ret)
Reply With Quote
  #229  
Old 02-13-2014, 07:15 AM
dunderhi's Avatar
dunderhi dunderhi is online now
0-60 in 4 secs or less!
Location: MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,604
Mein Auto: '13 X5M, 650xi
Lexus GS sales numbers are roughly 2,700 per month for 5 variants, while BMW sells roughly 4,000 5ers per month for 8 variants. So the sales numbers are comparable.
__________________


2013 X5M ........ 2013 650xi ...... 2011 550xi (ret) 2011 335d (ret)
Reply With Quote
  #230  
Old 02-13-2014, 07:21 AM
K-A's Avatar
K-A K-A is offline
Dark Knight
Location: U.S
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,215
Mein Auto: '13 BMW 535i M Sport
We need to be sure that "copying features" is not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about a business model that is first and foremost run by blatant imitations of other products to gain notoriety (i.e specifically wanting people to say "it looks like a BMW/Mercedes/Audi" at a lower price" (which my mom recently did when she was asking me to help her trade in her Lexus to get a Hyundai as she was impressed with how much it fooled her into looking like a bonafide premium car, until she finally succeeded and admitted "I just don't think I could do a Hyundai"). To me, Hyundai is closer to one of those Chinese car companies solely in the sense of shamelessly copying other designs that work. Not AS bad as the Chinese companies, of course, but pretty damn close.

As for copying/taking/imitating various pieces and such, sure, everyone does it and it's really kind of a must as there's only so much that you can do. But a BMW is instantly recognizable as a BMW, and a Hyundai is instantly recognizable as.... well.... not a Hyundai as they don't have any design continuity.... so as.... a.... BMW.... Audi? Mercedes? Bentley? It's really reaching to say that "BMW copied this or that" when BMW's look like BMW's, I'm accusing/criticizing Hyundai/Kia for blatantly ripping off entire designs so much so that they don't even follow up with an evolution for their next generation (i.e no design continuity).

Hey, no reason for shame. I doubt you'll have a Genesis as your only car anyway.

They seem to be honing in a smidge of continuity now and I hope they stick with it, for their sake, as it'll help them.
Reply With Quote
  #231  
Old 02-13-2014, 07:28 AM
K-A's Avatar
K-A K-A is offline
Dark Knight
Location: U.S
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,215
Mein Auto: '13 BMW 535i M Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Lexus GS sales numbers are roughly 2,700 per month for 5 variants, while BMW sells roughly 4,000 5ers per month for 8 variants. So the sales numbers are comparable.
A couple of figures I found on the GS were 1,231 for Sept 2013, 1,580 for November, and 2,604 for December (the latter doesn't count as an accurate representation considering it was during the biggest inflated blowout month for any car really). So mid 1000's has been the norm throughout its run so far it looks like.

Considering how cheap you can get the GS', the Lexus nameplate, and how every magazine and Lexus fan will tell you it whups on the F10 as if it was the E39 reincarnated and we're all partying like it's 1999 again, those numbers signify the holistic product even with magazine adoration, test winnings, good value, great features, etc. etc., it doesn't uphold that sense of "special" you get from a 5er. Some of us can call the sense of "special" BS fanboy-ishness, but most 5 buyers aren't fanboys, just average segment buyers. It's design and brand distinction, instant recognizability, and underlying superior engineering and more importantly design quality, at least speaking personally on why I'd never consider a GS. And I'm no BMW fanboy, I didn't even like the brand for a long time until the F10 came out, and think that they still put out some of the ugliest cars on the market to coincide with the most beautiful (X6, 5GT representing for the former).
__________________
'13 F10 BMW 535i Sport : Jet Black/Black-Anthracite : Premium & Technology Packages/Sport Auto Trans/Camera/Park Distance Control/Heated Seats/Tinted Windows/Blacked Out Markers/Performance Spoiler.

Ex M-B's: '11/'10/'06 E350's w/ AMG Sport Package, '02 S500 w/ Every Option.

Last edited by K-A; 02-13-2014 at 07:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #232  
Old 02-13-2014, 07:35 AM
ksoze ksoze is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: MD
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 601
Mein Auto: 2011 E93 M3
From the February Roundel - 2014 LA car show review - following a paragraph where they say Honda has gotten dull...

Quote:
Not so the products of South Korea, where Hyundai and Kia - cousins in the enormous industrial chaebol that is doing to Toyota what Samsung has done to Sony and is increasingly doing to Apple - continue to produce genuinely intriguing shapes and high-quality cars. Kia's Optima is, in my eyes, the best looking everyday-affordable sedan on the American road, especially in grey. So hats off to the designers and engineers of the Korean Peninsula, even if the Naming Department still has some distance to go. The big new sedan you roll out in LA is the Canine Hundred - really? No, not really: it's actually the K900 - as if that's any better for anything that's not a 900-cc Kawasaki super bike
__________________
2011 E93 M3 Convertible JB/FR | 2002 E46 M3 Convertible | 2002 E53 X5 3.0 | 2000 E39 540i | 1998 E36 M3 | 1988 E28 M5 | 1987 E28 528i

Last edited by ksoze; 02-13-2014 at 07:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #233  
Old 02-13-2014, 07:55 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: MA
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,065
Mein Auto: 2012 535xi 2013 X3 35i
Not a Lexus fanboy here nor a BMW fanboy. I think instead of looking at the GS' US sales numbers, we should look at the GS's global sales numbers compare to the 5 series, my guess is that the BMW 5 series sells at least 10 times more units than the GS350 globally. There were some talk among Lexus GS enthusiast that Lexus went all out on the 4 gen GS’ design that if it fails, Lexus might consider discontinuing the GS line. I am not sure if the 4th gen GS is consider a failure, although it has improve in every way, that improvement did not translate into better sales numbers. As we all know, the bottom line for car companies is profit, considering the amount of money Lexus spend on its performance research, I would say they are far from breaking even. As someone have mentioned, their new design language is questionable as well, the Lexus cooperate front end is a mess. Much like a BMW, I can tell it is a Lexus right away, but in Lexus' case, that's not necessary a good thing.
Reply With Quote
  #234  
Old 02-13-2014, 09:15 AM
WJGreer's Avatar
WJGreer WJGreer is offline
1oz perception-1# obscure
Location: Denver
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,976
Mein Auto: 2013 535i XDrive M-Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Bingo, I agree. If I get my way, I'll get a 991 when my Lease is up
Funny, me too. Right now I have the F10 and a 2004 Explorer. I'd like to change to an '09 or '10 997 and a new 4Runner, Grand Cherokee, or Durango for daily and dirty duty when I'm in the market again in 2016.

Although, I do like the 4GC and I'm intrigued by the X4...
__________________
-Will
2013 535i xDrive M-Sport | 2005 545i Sport (Retired and Missed) | 2001 X5 3.0 Sport (Retired)
Reply With Quote
  #235  
Old 02-13-2014, 10:31 AM
dunderhi's Avatar
dunderhi dunderhi is online now
0-60 in 4 secs or less!
Location: MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,604
Mein Auto: '13 X5M, 650xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
A couple of figures I found on the GS were 1,231 for Sept 2013, 1,580 for November, and 2,604 for December (the latter doesn't count as an accurate representation considering it was during the biggest inflated blowout month for any car really). So mid 1000's has been the norm throughout its run so far it looks like.

Considering how cheap you can get the GS', the Lexus nameplate, and how every magazine and Lexus fan will tell you it whups on the F10 as if it was the E39 reincarnated and we're all partying like it's 1999 again, those numbers signify the holistic product even with magazine adoration, test winnings, good value, great features, etc. etc., it doesn't uphold that sense of "special" you get from a 5er. Some of us can call the sense of "special" BS fanboy-ishness, but most 5 buyers aren't fanboys, just average segment buyers. It's design and brand distinction, instant recognizability, and underlying superior engineering and more importantly design quality, at least speaking personally on why I'd never consider a GS. And I'm no BMW fanboy, I didn't even like the brand for a long time until the F10 came out, and think that they still put out some of the ugliest cars on the market to coincide with the most beautiful (X6, 5GT representing for the former).
I grabbed the December sales report, so looking at the annual numbers, Lexus sells about 1750 GS'/mo and BMW sells 4,750 5ers (including the GT)/mo, so the difference is bigger than I thought, but it is far from no one is buying the GS.

Now as far as fanboys go, there are plenty on this forum. The openness to the Hyundai by some members shows that this group is a bit more neutral than some other forums, but this also is group that has been beat up for a few years now by how bad the F10 was when compared to previous Bimmers and now Audis. People can argue that the F10 has broken the BMW mold for the better, but exterior aside, it is no longer instantly recognized as the Ultimate Driving Machine. Not saying it's not a great car, after all I bought one myself , but some the traditional BMWness has been lost. Hopefully, the next generation 5er will go on a diet and the MSport will be closer to an MXXX treatment.
__________________


2013 X5M ........ 2013 650xi ...... 2011 550xi (ret) 2011 335d (ret)
Reply With Quote
  #236  
Old 02-13-2014, 11:08 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Houston, TX
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,361
Mein Auto: See Sig
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksoze View Post
Don't forget, the car company does not design these cars, their designers do. Hyundai hired one of the lead designers away from BMW DesignworksUSA in 2011. Chris Chapman designed the X5, 4 and the 1 series among other models for BMW. That is also how designs can end up in other iterations when the guys who actually design these cars shift onto different platforms and markets. Theft, no.
Uhhhhh, really? Like the manufacturers just build what some outsider tells them to build? You might want to rethink that statement.
__________________
2012 BMW 550 M-Sport
2014 Lexus GS350---Wife's car
2013 BMW 1600 GT---2011 Kawasaki Ninja 1000---2012 Ducati Panigale
Reply With Quote
  #237  
Old 02-13-2014, 11:33 AM
markl53's Avatar
markl53 markl53 is offline
bimmerfest Supporting Member
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,774
Mein Auto: 2011 535i
Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Not a Lexus fanboy here nor a BMW fanboy. I think instead of looking at the GS' US sales numbers, we should look at the GS's global sales numbers compare to the 5 series, my guess is that the BMW 5 series sells at least 10 times more units than the GS350 globally. There were some talk among Lexus GS enthusiast that Lexus went all out on the 4 gen GS’ design that if it fails, Lexus might consider discontinuing the GS line. I am not sure if the 4th gen GS is consider a failure, although it has improve in every way, that improvement did not translate into better sales numbers. As we all know, the bottom line for car companies is profit, considering the amount of money Lexus spend on its performance research, I would say they are far from breaking even. As someone have mentioned, their new design language is questionable as well, the Lexus cooperate front end is a mess. Much like a BMW, I can tell it is a Lexus right away, but in Lexus' case, that's not necessary a good thing.
I was recently at the Washington, DC auto show. I swear we stopped by the Lexus display and I overheard someone saying the GS was discontinued. They did not have one on the floor that I recall. I asked that person "for real?" and they said yes. But I'm not sure what their source of information was. This was not a Lexus rep of course, another show attendee.
__________________
BMW-CCA
Bimmerfest Supporting Member



2014 535i Individual | Azurite Black/Amaro Brown Merino | Premium | Cold | PDC | Rear Camera | Anthracite Hdr
Prior: 2011 535i AT | Black Sapphire/Cinnamon | Premium | Heated Sts | Nav | Sirius | Anthracite Hdr & Trim
Prior: 2008 335i 6MT Sedan | Black Sapphire/Terra Leather | Premium | Cold | CA | OEM Alarm
Prior: 2005 330i 6MT | Black Sapphire/Sand Leather | Premium | Cold | UGO | OEM Alarm
Reply With Quote
  #238  
Old 02-13-2014, 11:37 AM
Mark K's Avatar
Mark K Mark K is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Cincinnati, OH
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,764
Mein Auto: 2011 E92 335i MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by superM View Post
I really think they should take a page out of Toyota's book and create a new brand for their luxury cars. I don't get why Hyundai decided to make Kia K900 the luxury version of the new Genesis at $60-70k. Who is going to buy that?
It depends where they want to go with this. I still strongly believe that the reason Lexus, Infiniti and Acura are not breaking Euro market is because they are called that instead of Toyota, Nissan and Honda.

As much as Americans find offending paying $60,000 for a Hyundai, so much Europeans find offensive to pay for Lexus when everybody knows it is a Toyota. It smacks of cheating at a deplorably low level - at least to most Europeans.

So, Hyundai might be in a much better shape continuing with same naming strategy - focus on "Genesis", but it is still Hyundai. Same with "Equus". That is if they want to start selling that elsewhere.
__________________

_____________________________________________

2011 E92 335i 6MT ZSP ZCW (ED May 17th 2010)

2013 118d BMWNA Special Edition. Black on black cloth (yay!), 5 door hatchback, 140hp diesel. Special edition items: factory debadge| "VW", "Golf" and "TDI" badges factory applied | MT | Standard go flat tires | Spare tire (yay!) | No moonroof (yay!) .
Reply With Quote
  #239  
Old 02-13-2014, 11:44 AM
ksoze ksoze is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: MD
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 601
Mein Auto: 2011 E93 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
Uhhhhh, really? Like the manufacturers just build what some outsider tells them to build? You might want to rethink that statement.
No, my point was that all cars are shaped by the artists who design them and their influences will end up in the designs as they change canvases (car platforms).

That's not theft, that's the evolution of design and if Hyundai's have an element which appears derivative in their Fluidic Sculpture 2.0, it may be the evolution of a design which follows with the style of the designer. The fact they have Chapman, gives some evidence the new designs are not a ripoff, but the influence of someone who came from and helped make those previous shapes.
__________________
2011 E93 M3 Convertible JB/FR | 2002 E46 M3 Convertible | 2002 E53 X5 3.0 | 2000 E39 540i | 1998 E36 M3 | 1988 E28 M5 | 1987 E28 528i

Last edited by ksoze; 02-13-2014 at 11:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #240  
Old 02-13-2014, 11:49 AM
Sophisto Sophisto is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Netherlands
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,870
Mein Auto: F11 530D
What about the quality of big copy cat car creators, just being world industry leaders is not any garanty for quality.
Like 1.6 million recalls for Prii, makes you wonder about the more complex high end cars by world leaders entering a new market.
Not adding new things but solely entering by promising a comparable product four years after the original for a lets say 25% savings?
Reply With Quote
  #241  
Old 02-13-2014, 01:25 PM
Crusher137 Crusher137 is online now
Registered User
Location: Jersey Shore
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 41
Mein Auto: 2014 535xi, 2006 330ci
Blah Blah Blah.....Am I the only BMW owner here seriously considering the AWD Genesis 2015 for my next car?
Reply With Quote
  #242  
Old 02-13-2014, 01:36 PM
ksoze ksoze is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: MD
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 601
Mein Auto: 2011 E93 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusher137 View Post
Blah Blah Blah.....Am I the only BMW owner here seriously considering the AWD Genesis 2015 for my next car?
Will definitely get a look and drive the V8 when here in the spring. No BMW killer, but early reports from those who have driven or seen in person is very intriguing.
__________________
2011 E93 M3 Convertible JB/FR | 2002 E46 M3 Convertible | 2002 E53 X5 3.0 | 2000 E39 540i | 1998 E36 M3 | 1988 E28 M5 | 1987 E28 528i
Reply With Quote
  #243  
Old 02-13-2014, 01:52 PM
alera alera is offline
Registered User
Location: los angeles
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 29
Mein Auto: bmw 525i
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Considering how cheap you can get the GS', the Lexus nameplate, and how every magazine and Lexus fan will tell you it whups on the F10 as if it was the E39 reincarnated and we're all partying like it's 1999 again, those numbers signify the holistic product even with magazine adoration, test winnings, good value, great features, etc. etc., it doesn't uphold that sense of "special" you get from a 5er. Some of us can call the sense of "special" BS fanboy-ishness, but most 5 buyers aren't fanboys, just average segment buyers. It's design and brand distinction, instant recognizability, and underlying superior engineering and more importantly design quality, at least speaking personally on why I'd never consider a GS. And I'm no BMW fanboy, I didn't even like the brand for a long time until the F10 came out, and think that they still put out some of the ugliest cars on the market to coincide with the most beautiful (X6, 5GT representing for the former).
I had a 2011 535 6 speed manual and after it got totaled, leased a GS. GS drives and feels a lot closer to E39 than an F10 does. The GS interior and options are much nicer than what my 535 had. There are only 3 things that I liked more with the 535:
1. Manual transmission
2. Exterior (it really is a handsome car)
3. Engine (lots of torque at lower RPMs)

I think the 5 sells in higher numbers because there are a lot of people who are loyal to BMW brand and do not consider other brands, most folks who get the 5 lease (while Lexus owners tend to buy and hold their cars longer) which affects frequency of sales, and because Lexus does not invest in marketing the GS. Most Lexus marketing is for ES, RX and IS models. Even at many Lexus dealerships, you may not see a GS on a showroom floor, so many customers who come to check out an IS or an ES would not even consider inquiring about a GS. That's not the case at BMW dealerships, where sales staff actively try to upsell folks who come to check out a 328 or a 335. There are plenty of stories on this forum about such folks leaving with a 5 series.
Reply With Quote
  #244  
Old 02-13-2014, 02:39 PM
bmw325 bmw325 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: New York, NY
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,340
Mein Auto: 335i
Quote:
Originally Posted by alera View Post
I had a 2011 535 6 speed manual and after it got totaled, leased a GS. GS drives and feels a lot closer to E39 than an F10 does. The GS interior and options are much nicer than what my 535 had. There are only 3 things that I liked more with the 535:
1. Manual transmission
2. Exterior (it really is a handsome car)
3. Engine (lots of torque at lower RPMs)

I think the 5 sells in higher numbers because there are a lot of people who are loyal to BMW brand and do not consider other brands, most folks who get the 5 lease (while Lexus owners tend to buy and hold their cars longer) which affects frequency of sales, and because Lexus does not invest in marketing the GS. Most Lexus marketing is for ES, RX and IS models. Even at many Lexus dealerships, you may not see a GS on a showroom floor, so many customers who come to check out an IS or an ES would not even consider inquiring about a GS. That's not the case at BMW dealerships, where sales staff actively try to upsell folks who come to check out a 328 or a 335. There are plenty of stories on this forum about such folks leaving with a 5 series.

I think the main reason the F10 outsells the GS globally is that the F10 has a much wider array of engines- especially diesels. And when comparing the GS250 (not avail in the US) to BMW 520s and 528s the BMWs offer more power and better fuel economy. And lexus doesnt have an answer for the 520d which is very popular in europe. That being said, it seems that all the European reviews praise the F10's dynamics more highly - even when compared to the GS. In the US, the GS is the second coming of the e39 and the F10 is a fat pig.
__________________


http://nyccarblog.blogspot.com/

Last edited by bmw325; 02-13-2014 at 02:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #245  
Old 02-13-2014, 02:50 PM
ksoze ksoze is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: MD
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 601
Mein Auto: 2011 E93 M3
BMW's ability to boost residuals has also helped it for those leasing - they can be $100 less a month on a similarly priced car when compared to their competition which tends to be more conservative on lease factors. They make up any downside by increased sales and the used car market they can play in.
__________________
2011 E93 M3 Convertible JB/FR | 2002 E46 M3 Convertible | 2002 E53 X5 3.0 | 2000 E39 540i | 1998 E36 M3 | 1988 E28 M5 | 1987 E28 528i
Reply With Quote
  #246  
Old 02-13-2014, 02:56 PM
bmw325 bmw325 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: New York, NY
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,340
Mein Auto: 335i
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksoze View Post
BMW's ability to boost residuals has also helped it for those leasing - they can be $100 less a month on a similarly priced car when compared to their competition which tends to be more conservative on lease factors. They make up any downside by increased sales and the used car market they can play in.
No doubt. BMW lease deals are incredible at times. If it weren't for that, I'm not sure what i'd buy. There's no new or recent sedan that makes me want to actually "commit" to it. Guess I'd probably just drive an e46 into the ground.
__________________


http://nyccarblog.blogspot.com/
Reply With Quote
  #247  
Old 02-13-2014, 08:48 PM
K-A's Avatar
K-A K-A is offline
Dark Knight
Location: U.S
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,215
Mein Auto: '13 BMW 535i M Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by alera View Post
I had a 2011 535 6 speed manual and after it got totaled, leased a GS. GS drives and feels a lot closer to E39 than an F10 does. The GS interior and options are much nicer than what my 535 had. There are only 3 things that I liked more with the 535:
1. Manual transmission
2. Exterior (it really is a handsome car)
3. Engine (lots of torque at lower RPMs)

I think the 5 sells in higher numbers because there are a lot of people who are loyal to BMW brand and do not consider other brands, most folks who get the 5 lease (while Lexus owners tend to buy and hold their cars longer) which affects frequency of sales, and because Lexus does not invest in marketing the GS. Most Lexus marketing is for ES, RX and IS models. Even at many Lexus dealerships, you may not see a GS on a showroom floor, so many customers who come to check out an IS or an ES would not even consider inquiring about a GS. That's not the case at BMW dealerships, where sales staff actively try to upsell folks who come to check out a 328 or a 335. There are plenty of stories on this forum about such folks leaving with a 5 series.
However, Lexus was the leading U.S Luxury Car seller for years, so I don't think brand has as much to do with it, and the first GS was very popular. However, BMW's *originality* and *distinction* which is what makes the brand powerful, is all over the F10, and the GS could look like any other car out there, along with a new awkward Lexus corporate front, and that I do think gives an actual reason as to why people are loyal to BMW (rather than just thinking "BMW buyers are loyal" and assuming it's because of some out-of-thin-air brainwash method, not saying you assumed that, but it seems some do when it comes to these things). I think it's simply product and I think the F10 just attracts much more, much more largely. I've seen very aggressive discounts on the GS as well. I just don't think it looks or feels as inherently expensive as the F10, and little buttons, visible seamlines, design "gaps" or "gaffs" I should say, while it's obvious every inch of the F10 was obsessed about by the designers (again, why BMW commands a premium over a brand like Hyundai who obviously doesn't convey such precision) largely contributes to that. I think that what hold the GS back so heavily, more so than the F10 having non-product related virtues that attract such a vastly larger number of interested buyers like some here are hypothesizing, is simply the product itself and what is stands for.

It's also a good point to focus on worldwide sales as the true testament of a cars sales-related success, and there, the gap between the F10 and GS start to look even more ridiculously large.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325 View Post
That being said, it seems that all the European reviews praise the F10's dynamics more highly - even when compared to the GS. In the US, the GS is the second coming of the e39 and the F10 is a fat pig.
I think it's obvious that the automotive U.S press, like all press really, go where the $$$$ coming in is. Some Auto Journalists have admitted that these tests are more marketing adventures provided by the winning car than anything. It's obvious they've developed a pretty hard disdain for BMW. One test where the Lexus GS beat a lousily pre-M suspension equipped F10 was in an issue which was half an entire Lexus advertisement.... yeah, nothing fishy about that, lol. I also think an objective reviewer if BMW FOR ONCE would provide a RWD M suspension with SAT F10 in a test, would put it #1 over any of its competitors out right now.

I don't think handling or singular qualities like how nimble a car is means it's more "dynamic". I think "dynamic" means a multitude of things, especially in a Midsize Luxury Sedan market, it means solidity, smoothness, sportiness, luxury and refinement, power range, characteristics from the steering, suspension, engine, etc. that provide mixed results of luxury and sport, etc. Therefore I think the M suspension F10 is actually the most dynamic car in class and the most dynamic 5 Series to date, as previous 5 Series' didn't provide near a level of luxury that it does. Though the E39 during its time was probably the most dynamic Sedan of all time, more than the F10 is in its time today (though I think it's extremely close, like the E39's closest soul equivalent, the F10 just went heavier on luxury and lesser on sport, the E39 absolutely perfected the balance evenly), but the E60 wasn't very "dynamic" considering what *I* consider dynamic. It was/is an amazing sports sedan, very dynamic in that one area, but it was too singular, as it lacked in lots of luxury and refined qualities I like from a Sedan in this class, which is why I went with E Classes every time. The F10 basically took all the best of Mercedes, the best of BMW, and combined it into one car.
__________________
'13 F10 BMW 535i Sport : Jet Black/Black-Anthracite : Premium & Technology Packages/Sport Auto Trans/Camera/Park Distance Control/Heated Seats/Tinted Windows/Blacked Out Markers/Performance Spoiler.

Ex M-B's: '11/'10/'06 E350's w/ AMG Sport Package, '02 S500 w/ Every Option.

Last edited by K-A; 02-13-2014 at 09:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #248  
Old 02-13-2014, 09:34 PM
superM superM is offline
Registered User
Location: SF, CA
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 17
Mein Auto: 2004 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
However, Lexus was the leading U.S Luxury Car seller for years, so I don't think brand has as much to do with it, and the first GS was very popular. However, BMW's *originality* and *distinction* which is what makes the brand powerful, is all over the F10, and the GS could look like any other car out there, along with a new awkward Lexus corporate front, and that I do think gives an actual reason as to why people are loyal to BMW (rather than just thinking "BMW buyers are loyal" and assuming it's because of some out-of-thin-air brainwash method, not saying you assumed that, but it seems some do when it comes to these things). I think it's simply product and I think the F10 just attracts much more, much more largely. I've seen very aggressive discounts on the GS as well. I just don't think it looks or feels as inherently expensive as the F10, and little buttons, visible seamlines, design "gaps" or "gaffs" I should say, while it's obvious every inch of the F10 was obsessed about by the designers (again, why BMW commands a premium over a brand like Hyundai who obviously doesn't convey such precision) largely contributes to that. I think that what hold the GS back so heavily, more so than the F10 having non-product related virtues that attract such a vastly larger number of interested buyers like some here are hypothesizing, is simply the product itself and what is stands for.

It's also a good point to focus on worldwide sales as the true testament of a cars sales-related success, and there, the gap between the F10 and GS start to look even more ridiculously large.



I think it's obvious that the automotive U.S press, like all press really, go where the $$$$ coming in is. Some Auto Journalists have admitted that these tests are more marketing adventures provided by the winning car than anything. It's obvious they've developed a pretty hard disdain for BMW. One test where the Lexus GS beat a lousily pre-M suspension equipped F10 was in an issue which was half an entire Lexus advertisement.... yeah, nothing fishy about that, lol. I also think an objective reviewer if BMW FOR ONCE would provide a RWD M suspension with SAT F10 in a test, would put it #1 over any of its competitors out right now.

I don't think handling or singular qualities like how nimble a car is means it's more "dynamic". I think "dynamic" means a multitude of things, especially in a Midsize Luxury Sedan market, it means solidity, smoothness, sportiness, luxury and refinement, power range, characteristics from the steering, suspension, engine, etc. that provide mixed results of luxury and sport, etc. Therefore I think the M suspension F10 is actually the most dynamic car in class and the most dynamic 5 Series to date, as previous 5 Series' didn't provide near a level of luxury that it does. Though the E39 during its time was probably the most dynamic Sedan of all time, more than the F10 is in its time today (though I think it's extremely close, like the E39's closest soul equivalent, the F10 just went heavier on luxury and lesser on sport, the E39 absolutely perfected the balance evenly), but the E60 wasn't very "dynamic" considering what *I* consider dynamic. It was/is an amazing sports sedan, very dynamic in that one area, but it was too singular, as it lacked in lots of luxury and refined qualities I like from a Sedan in this class, which is why I went with E Classes every time. The F10 basically took all the best of Mercedes, the best of BMW, and combined it into one car.
Have a 3GS GS460 (2007-2012 body style) and just bought a 14 F10 535D. Had a couple BMWs before and driven many of the years. GS has been just amazing, solid as a rock. 150k miles on it now and hardly an issue -- and Lexus service even out of warranty has been great.

I really considered the new GS. In practically every single way it was superior or equal. Better navigation/bigger screen, softer leather, better ride and good sporty feel, and overall more value for the $.

As much as I hate to admit it though, the reason behind BMW was pretty much brand and status. I think when I'm a bit older/get married and have kids, I'll probably care a bit less about that.
Reply With Quote
  #249  
Old 02-13-2014, 11:34 PM
Sophisto Sophisto is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Netherlands
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,870
Mein Auto: F11 530D
Best statement of this thread so far ;

I think it's obvious that the automotive U.S press, like all press really, go where the $$$$ coming in is. Some Auto Journalists have admitted that these tests are more marketing adventures provided by the winning car than anything. It's obvious they've developed a pretty hard disdain for BMW. One test where the Lexus GS beat a lousily pre-M suspension equipped F10 was in an issue which was half an entire Lexus advertisement.... yeah, nothing fishy about that, lol. I also think an objective reviewer if BMW FOR ONCE would provide a RWD M suspension with SAT F10 in a test, would put it #1 over any of its competitors out right now.
Reply With Quote
  #250  
Old 02-14-2014, 12:28 AM
K-A's Avatar
K-A K-A is offline
Dark Knight
Location: U.S
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,215
Mein Auto: '13 BMW 535i M Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
Best statement of this thread so far ;

I think it's obvious that the automotive U.S press, like all press really, go where the $$$$ coming in is. Some Auto Journalists have admitted that these tests are more marketing adventures provided by the winning car than anything. It's obvious they've developed a pretty hard disdain for BMW. One test where the Lexus GS beat a lousily pre-M suspension equipped F10 was in an issue which was half an entire Lexus advertisement.... yeah, nothing fishy about that, lol. I also think an objective reviewer if BMW FOR ONCE would provide a RWD M suspension with SAT F10 in a test, would put it #1 over any of its competitors out right now.
Hey, where's my quote credit!

But seriously, please, BMW, do at least one U.S test with the M suspension so we can see the A6 and GS eat crow when all various factors that make up a luxury car are accounted for and averaged in (unless someone pays them otherwi$e ). Of course, with an objective reviewer who has more foresight than which car is loudest and most agile to throw around cones for 15 minutes.... these tests should cater to those who are looking to live with these cars for years, and IMO, that's where the F10 is still yet to be "dethroned" in this class.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms