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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 01-31-2014, 03:36 PM
tlim66 tlim66 is offline
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Keyless Start issue

2012 X5d just started having a problem with the key being detected inside the car 'after' starting the car. Comfort Access works fine opening and locking the doors. The remote buttons all work fine. Problem occurs after I start the car keyless pushing the button a message comes up saying key not detected and may not restart. However I just started the car with the key in my pocket fine. And each time the car will start but the message will come on again. Tried fresh batteries in the remote and also happens with both keys I have??? Anyone else had this issue and what resolved the problem.
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  #2  
Old 01-31-2014, 06:32 PM
dzampi dzampi is offline
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sometimes it will give me the same message but only when I'm opening my garage door wit the fob. Key is my pocket and fob is on my house keys at the door height. It seems like the fob transmission affects the connection between the key and the car....maybe you have the same problem something affecting transmission between the car and key....
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  #3  
Old 01-31-2014, 09:03 PM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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Just a guess, but is there anything else in your pocket with the key, particularly anything metal? I can imagine that if the was a lot of change or other metal keys around it, it might weaken the signal to detect the key.

As I said, just a guess, but one which is simple to test.
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  #4  
Old 01-31-2014, 10:47 PM
RPsX5d RPsX5d is offline
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Only guessing here - since you have already put a new set of batteries AND since both keys are showing the same problem - here are a couple of things to try.
  1. Remove the key from the pocket and leave it in the ash tray or somewhere near the gear shift and start the car. See if you are getting the same error.
  2. Repeat the same at different location - like a wide open parking lot. Just want to be sure there is no radio interference from something else you have in the house. I once had a similar issue (with the garage door opener) - it ended up being a new wireless remote switch I installed for a light!
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  #5  
Old 01-31-2014, 11:16 PM
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AskylitDrive AskylitDrive is offline
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A little off topic question, a message keeps popping up on my dash saying my key fob is low in battery. OP when you say you tried putting fresh batteries in your fob, what do you mean by that? I was told you charge your fob by putting the fob inside the ignition it self. I just want to make sure if i need to change the battery or i should keep "charging" it. Thanks


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  #6  
Old 02-01-2014, 12:14 AM
ard ard is offline
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hmmm. Something odd is going on with CAS system not seeing hte key in the cabin even though it did see it to allow the start...

read this: http://www.bmwmotorsports.org/pdf/e7...t%20Access.pdf
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  #7  
Old 02-01-2014, 12:35 AM
tlim66 tlim66 is offline
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Thanks for the suggestions. This problem just started recently. Has been working fine for a year and I have not changed anything. It will happen with keys in my pocket, keys in my hand and even if it is plugged into the slot....car will always start still, even though it says the remote is not present.
As far as the battery, replaced with a new one in the remote. I believe with comfort access the battery does not recharge by putting it in the slot.
Does anyone know where the sensor is for the key inside the car that is suppose to detect the presence of the key...
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  #8  
Old 02-01-2014, 01:27 AM
ard ard is offline
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Did you read what I posted?
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  #9  
Old 02-01-2014, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AskylitDrive View Post
A little off topic question, a message keeps popping up on my dash saying my key fob is low in battery. OP when you say you tried putting fresh batteries in your fob, what do you mean by that? I was told you charge your fob by putting the fob inside the ignition it self. I just want to make sure if i need to change the battery or i should keep "charging" it. Thanks


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This is the case for cars without comfort access. Those fobs are charged through induction in the ignition.

For cars with comfort access, you actually have to change the battery.
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  #10  
Old 02-01-2014, 09:15 AM
tlim66 tlim66 is offline
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Ard. Thanks I did read your post and the PDF was very informative of how the system is suppose to work. Unfortunately it does not have anything to try to troubleshoot the issue I am having.
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  #11  
Old 02-01-2014, 10:44 AM
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Pat_X5 Pat_X5 is offline
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Possibly an RF field interference ?

Try taking out all cell phones, laptops, tablet PC, iPad, bluetooth devices out of the car and away form the car.
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  #12  
Old 02-01-2014, 12:28 PM
tlim66 tlim66 is offline
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I thought about the RF interference but the only device I have is my Samsung S3 phone which I have had for over a year without issues. Was also thinking of a reception or detection issue but how do you troubleshoot that without replacing parts.
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  #13  
Old 02-01-2014, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlim66 View Post
Thanks for the suggestions. This problem just started recently. Has been working fine for a year and I have not changed anything. It will happen with keys in my pocket, keys in my hand and even if it is plugged into the slot....car will always start still, even though it says the remote is not present.
As far as the battery, replaced with a new one in the remote. I believe with comfort access the battery does not recharge by putting it in the slot.
Does anyone know where the sensor is for the key inside the car that is suppose to detect the presence of the key...
I have comfort access, so im guessing the bmw tech didn't know i had this feature when he told me. Did you just bring it to bimmer to change batteries or what you do?


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  #14  
Old 02-01-2014, 02:00 PM
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AskylitDrive AskylitDrive is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRK View Post
This is the case for cars without comfort access. Those fobs are charged through induction in the ignition.

For cars with comfort access, you actually have to change the battery.
Alright thanks, good to know


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  #15  
Old 02-01-2014, 04:11 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlim66 View Post
Ard. Thanks I did read your post and the PDF was very informative of how the system is suppose to work. Unfortunately it does not have anything to try to troubleshoot the issue I am having.
I know, but I did think it tells you where the sensors are, which was your question.... betweent he pdf and searching realoem you should be able to narrow it down.

But truthfully this is a 'need a computer to troubleshoot' issue, IMO.

You need to be watching the status of the CAS as you do the different steps to see what is going wrong....
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  #16  
Old 02-18-2014, 03:38 PM
tlim66 tlim66 is offline
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An update to the situation. After a few more weeks of the same issue occurring the dealer has not figured out the actual cause. The non detection of the key does not seem to throw off any codes therefore they are not sure what to do...frustrating....
what they are going to try next is to replace both of my keys and 'hope' that will solve the problem. I hope so to...
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  #17  
Old 02-28-2014, 01:10 AM
tlim66 tlim66 is offline
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The X5 has been in the shop for the past 4 days after all the testing and different parts replacement they have not figured out the problem yet..... Well they do know the problem... Just not the solution....
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  #18  
Old 02-28-2014, 03:25 PM
xx xx is offline
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this might be non-issue or irrelevant... but out of curiosity... does your vehicle have any metallic-type window tint? (something non-standard or added on, something affecting the signal(?)).
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  #19  
Old 02-28-2014, 04:41 PM
tlim66 tlim66 is offline
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Signal interference was the initial thought but did not surface anything. Everything is original, no metallic tint or add in electronics... Everything was working fine for about a year, then this intermittent problem started to occur.
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  #20  
Old 02-28-2014, 05:42 PM
ard ard is offline
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If you start the car and immediately pass the keys out the window to someone to take away, is that the same message?

The antennas are defective or the ampliefers/control unit that runs the antennas, or there is noise on the K-bus (or the bus has been damaged, wet, etc) causing degradation of the communication... my guesses.

Have they opened a PUMA on this???
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  #21  
Old 02-28-2014, 06:31 PM
ingenieur ingenieur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
If you start the car and immediately pass the keys out the window to someone to take away, is that the same message?

The antennas are defective or the ampliefers/control unit that runs the antennas, or there is noise on the K-bus (or the bus has been damaged, wet, etc) causing degradation of the communication... my guesses.

Have they opened a PUMA on this???
Agreed - one step at a time - once you understand how the system should work, only then can you begin to start to isolate the problem. Antennas - communication problems are certainly likely suspects for this complaint.

Typically - if there is a issue (physical short or break) on most of the major CAN bus trees - a fault will be stored when a message(s), that an ECU(s) on the Bus is expecting a within a defined time parameter is missing.

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  #22  
Old 02-28-2014, 07:18 PM
ard ard is offline
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Agreed - one step at a time - once you understand how the system should work, only then can you begin to start to isolate the problem. Antennas - communication problems are certainly likely suspects for this complaint.

Typically - if there is a issue (physical short or break) on most of the major CAN bus trees - a fault will be stored when a message(s), that an ECU(s) on the Bus is expecting a within a defined time parameter is missing.



We just dont know the level of competence of the tech at the dealership... are they just slow dancing this, or are they digging in???

If they have not opened a PUMA, they are kinda constrained to just checking for issues, and maybe doing a few low cost things...but without hard failure codes, they cannot just replace antennas for example. However, if they open a PUMA, then BMW engineers are pulled into the process. THEY get to tell the tech what to do, and when the tech reports "that didnt fix it", PUMA can authorize the $$$ for parts and labor to dig more. If the dealer does a bunch of work without authorization THEY pay for it, Not BMWNA. Like they spend 2 hrs of tech time and cannot fix it, BMW doesnt say "oh yeah, we'll reimburse you for that"

Remember, "BMW" isnt monolithic- the dealer and BMW have an odd alliance, but also are at odds for some i$$ues... so recognize what may be driving dealer behavior
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Last edited by ard; 02-28-2014 at 07:36 PM.
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  #23  
Old 02-28-2014, 07:47 PM
ingenieur ingenieur is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post


We just dont know the level of competence of the tech at the dealership... are they just slow dancing this, or are they digging in???
Considering the complexity of the latest BMW electronics and the push button - answer yes or no approach in some of the diagnostics - no wonder technicians shotgun parts.
There still are some ol'men out there that instinctively always ask why.... and from there analyze the problem using common sense ,reasoning skills, and whatever experience they've learned over the years to figure it out.

It is called the problem the solving model - nothing new, but understood by fewer these days....I guess I'm a bit of a curmudgeon myself because I have little patience for the lazy approach.

I know how PuMA works and how the dealer can be limited for warranty payment in some case esp. on certain repairs.

I think the current flat rate technician is limited many times because he or she may feel, due to internal policy, that they will not be paid for their time to properly diagnose a problem.
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Last edited by ingenieur; 02-28-2014 at 08:02 PM.
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  #24  
Old 03-01-2014, 12:28 AM
yeswecan yeswecan is offline
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I sometimes have the same problem. Turns out the remote may have low battery. Just insert your key then push start, i think if you insert the key then it will charge the battery automatically. At low battery key less start up, it will appear a key and battery icon means there is low battery with remote. but if you ignore it then when it dead you won't be able to let the car detect the key. I inset the key for charging and problem solved. good luck
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  #25  
Old 03-01-2014, 01:27 AM
tlim66 tlim66 is offline
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Yes. It is the message as you would get if you start the car and then throw the key out the window. It shows up after the car us started, also after a door is open/closed while the car is still running as if someone left with the key. Also can happen right after you turn the car off (single push) of the start/stop button.

While it has been at the dealership for the past week, the BMW engineers have been in contact. They have tested, reflashed software, looked for error codes, charged and tested battery. They have replaced the comfort access module, as well as antenas and even both keys to no success. Everything works with comfort access like unlock and lock doors with handle touch, car starts with keys in my pocket, but the message comes on....

I picked my car back up today since the next step the BMW engineers want to try is to replace some major module which is on order from Germany and is coded specifically to the vehicles vin from the factory??? Not sure what module that is specifically but should arrive in a week or two....
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