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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #51  
Old 03-12-2014, 08:34 PM
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A B Able Truck A B Able Truck is offline
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Originally Posted by pcb5 View Post
If oil was sucked through the intake valve stem seals wouldn't it still smoke...oil in combustion chamber?
Well the theory is that - the intake seals don't go bad anyway, the exhaust seals are said to be the issue. But yes, if the intake seals were bad, it should smoke.
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  #52  
Old 03-12-2014, 08:46 PM
pcb5 pcb5 is offline
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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Looking at it conversely, if the increased vacuum doesn't allow crankcase pressure to escape, you may blow crankcase seals & gaskets. I think I would leave the dipstick slightly pulled - if you have one.
Guess this is possible, but I haven't added oil to it since I disconnected the solenoids. So there can't be that much if anymore unwanted crankcase pressure. I'm not puking oil everywhere.
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  #53  
Old 03-12-2014, 08:49 PM
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The theory of valvetronics as I understand it (simplified) - It only allows the necessary air to enter the cylinder for the requested rpm. The injector regulates the fuel supply to match said rpm.

The down fall of the system also appears to be the vacuum that is created within the cylinder while the intake valves are in the almost closed position (low rpm). Sucking oil where it can - and yes the worn exhaust valve stem seals that allow oil to pool at the guide top.
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  #54  
Old 03-12-2014, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by pcb5 View Post
Guess this is possible, but I haven't added oil to it since I disconnected the solenoids. So there can't be that much if anymore unwanted crankcase pressure. I'm not puking oil everywhere
But you don't want to start either. Maybe your crankcase is breathing above the oil level somewhere. If your CCVs are working, with the added vacuum - they will not do their job.
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  #55  
Old 03-13-2014, 04:02 PM
aber57 aber57 is offline
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Valves being open isn't why valve stem seals leak. Vacuum below valves is cylinder suction. Vacuum above valves is manifold vacuum. Valvetronic concept is to create great turbulence at low flow by having the cylinder pull the fuel/air mix past a barely cracked open valve at idle and low torque requests (lower throttle pedal but you aren't throttling engine in the normal way). Normally a full valve travel and a closed throttle gets you a situation like a box fan blowing through a ball room. VT is like a 50 MPH wind blowing through a window raised a couple of inches. Velocity is greater and the fuel/air mix is in motion by spark plug and burns faster. This gives a faster burn and a greater pressure rise to push on the top of piston when the rod to crank pin angle is closer to 90 degrees. A slow burn gives a slow pressure rise and the most effective piston to crank motion conversion period is wasted.
On VT equipped engines the regular throttle is closed down a little just to get a faint vacuum to assure that the CCV and charcoal canister purge will have some flow. If you go regular throttle then you now have much greater vacuum. I am unsure if the CCV's work as they should when the vacuum is 6-8 times greater than the designed value.
The engine internally usually runs at faint vacuum or faint pressure. If it goes into higher pressure then oil that may have had a little help going down guides now could have exhaust gas pulled up through guides and stops outflow of oil. Often engines with plugged up crankcase vent systems use oil and when the system is cleaned/repaired and there is no longer crankcase pressure the oil use stops or is greatly reduced. If the pressure is high enough you can get seal leakage. IF the internal vacuum is high enough you can get air drawn in through front or rear crank seals (and even a kazoo noise until oil filler cap is opened). When you have intake manifold vacuum then you get oil use from failed intake valve stem seals. Normally VT in operation means no intake vacuum and thus nothing to draw oil down the stem of valve past a failed seal. Normally exhaust on non-turbo engines will have a low vacuum pulse on valve closing.
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  #56  
Old 03-13-2014, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aber57 View Post
Valves being open isn't why valve stem seals leak. Vacuum below valves is cylinder suction. Vacuum above valves is manifold vacuum. Valvetronic concept is to create great turbulence at low flow by having the cylinder pull the fuel/air mix past a barely cracked open valve at idle and low torque requests (lower throttle pedal but you aren't throttling engine in the normal way). Normally a full valve travel and a closed throttle gets you a situation like a box fan blowing through a ball room. VT is like a 50 MPH wind blowing through a window raised a couple of inches. Velocity is greater and the fuel/air mix is in motion by spark plug and burns faster. This gives a faster burn and a greater pressure rise to push on the top of piston when the rod to crank pin angle is closer to 90 degrees. A slow burn gives a slow pressure rise and the most effective piston to crank motion conversion period is wasted.
On VT equipped engines the regular throttle is closed down a little just to get a faint vacuum to assure that the CCV and charcoal canister purge will have some flow. If you go regular throttle then you now have much greater vacuum. I am unsure if the CCV's work as they should when the vacuum is 6-8 times greater than the designed value.
The engine internally usually runs at faint vacuum or faint pressure. If it goes into higher pressure then oil that may have had a little help going down guides now could have exhaust gas pulled up through guides and stops outflow of oil. Often engines with plugged up crankcase vent systems use oil and when the system is cleaned/repaired and there is no longer crankcase pressure the oil use stops or is greatly reduced. If the pressure is high enough you can get seal leakage. IF the internal vacuum is high enough you can get air drawn in through front or rear crank seals (and even a kazoo noise until oil filler cap is opened). When you have intake manifold vacuum then you get oil use from failed intake valve stem seals. Normally VT in operation means no intake vacuum and thus nothing to draw oil down the stem of valve past a failed seal. Normally exhaust on non-turbo engines will have a low vacuum pulse on valve closing.
I've read a lot of literature on the valvetronics and the variable intake manifolds including the super sonic intake charge air assertion. It makes my brain hurt & my eyes water.
This has good illustrations and descriptive theories;
https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/at...4&d=1326480212
Over engineered with too many moving parts - So it appears they've reverted back to turbochargers.
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  #57  
Old 03-14-2014, 05:05 AM
aber57 aber57 is offline
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In 2013 v8 turbo engines got valvetronic added back. SO that engine has twin turbos, dual Vanos on each cylinder head, and valvetronic. I think the deployment of Valvetronic on this engine is a bit different though.
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  #58  
Old 03-14-2014, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by aber57 View Post
In 2013 v8 turbo engines got valvetronic added back. SO that engine has twin turbos, dual Vanos on each cylinder head, and valvetronic. I think the deployment of Valvetronic on this engine is a bit different though.
You are correct - It looks like Valvetronics was added to updated variants of the S63TU along with the twin turbos. But look at that thing - I wouldn't want to work on it.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...3tu-engine.pdf
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  #59  
Old 03-14-2014, 06:55 AM
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Valve opening overlap could greatly increase valve seal failure.also have not read anyone mention pumping losses against close throttle plate.Vanos unhooked could lessen valve overlap.

Last edited by dolfan13; 03-14-2014 at 07:31 AM.
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  #60  
Old 03-14-2014, 07:33 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
You are correct - It looks like Valvetronics was added to updated variants of the S63TU along with the twin turbos. But look at that thing - I wouldn't want to work on it.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...3tu-engine.pdf
Holy mother of god. Remind me to never own one of those.
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  #61  
Old 03-14-2014, 07:54 AM
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My next BMW will be S85 engine.Im sure it has problems but non valvetronic and non turbo.
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  #62  
Old 03-14-2014, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dolfan13 View Post
My next BMW will be S85 engine.Im sure it has problems but non valvetronic and non turbo.
AGA won't have a tool to do valve stem seals on it without pulling the cams!
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  #63  
Old 03-22-2014, 01:36 PM
4.8isX5 4.8isX5 is offline
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Alright guys... Got a new thing here.

Background- 06 x5 4.8is and i have the smoking at hot idle problem. My ccv is all working and i also did catch can setup on each bank few months ago.

I came across this post disabling the vvt by unplugging sensors. I tried this and lo and behold smoking stopped as someone else had said. I could idle it 10min with barely any smoke and that was jabbing the throttle to 4k rpm, normal drive away there would be zero.

Ive tried various things before, catch cans, running 10-40 oil etc. Right now i had 10-30 in winter and it smokes quicker with this one.

I was planning on doing seals but if i can prolong it then thats what im going to do.

I also cane across how vvt pic works and what i think is going on is the pressures in cylinder and ontop of valve covers etc when vvt is active.


Problem with having it unplugged, i noticed definte power loss all around so i plugged it back in and let it readapt. Now this weekend i think i finally got it as a cure to smoking issue and any rough running if you guys have it.

With car running hook up inpa, access n62 motor, f6 for activate then, f7 for vvt.


In this menu mine was really close to the left value, i basically increased it all the way up right before red line on this graph to close to 0.8. Im assuming this has stuff to do with how the valve lift etc but i couldnt find any info online.

After increase you press f7 to "prog". Car idles a bit higher, and alot more torquey low end. I keep it at 2-2.5k rpm and car accels to 50-60 quick as if i was on it more and really smooth too.

So i idled it a few min hot again, 10min ago with old settings was smoking, now jabbed throttle hard 4.5k rpm and got the tiniest amount of smoke. Under normal throttle takeoff after longer idle you would get Zero smoke.


Hope this helps you out and give it a try too guys. I will report back on diff things like mpg changes, smoke, etc etc.
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  #64  
Old 03-22-2014, 06:30 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Mine was set to max, .8mm, prior to rebuilding the engine and it still had the smoking @ idle issue
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  #65  
Old 03-22-2014, 07:32 PM
pcb5 pcb5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4.8isX5 View Post
Alright guys... Got a new thing here.

Background- 06 x5 4.8is and i have the smoking at hot idle problem. My ccv is all working and i also did catch can setup on each bank few months ago.

I came across this post disabling the vvt by unplugging sensors. I tried this and lo and behold smoking stopped as someone else had said. I could idle it 10min with barely any smoke and that was jabbing the throttle to 4k rpm, normal drive away there would be zero.

Ive tried various things before, catch cans, running 10-40 oil etc. Right now i had 10-30 in winter and it smokes quicker with this one.

I was planning on doing seals but if i can prolong it then thats what im going to do.

I also cane across how vvt pic works and what i think is going on is the pressures in cylinder and ontop of valve covers etc when vvt is active.



Problem with having it unplugged, i noticed definte power loss all around so i plugged it back in and let it readapt. Now this weekend i think i finally got it as a cure to smoking issue and any rough running if you guys have it.

With car running hook up inpa, access n62 motor, f6 for activate then, f7 for vvt.


In this menu mine was really close to the left value, i basically increased it all the way up right before red line on this graph to close to 0.8. Im assuming this has stuff to do with how the valve lift etc but i couldnt find any info online.

After increase you press f7 to "prog". Car idles a bit higher, and alot more torquey low end. I keep it at 2-2.5k rpm and car accels to 50-60 quick as if i was on it more and really smooth too.

So i idled it a few min hot again, 10min ago with old settings was smoking, now jabbed throttle hard 4.5k rpm and got the tiniest amount of smoke. Under normal throttle takeoff after longer idle you would get Zero smoke.


Hope this helps you out and give it a try too guys. I will report back on diff things like mpg changes, smoke, etc etc.
How long have you ran it with the new settings? Couple weeks? I still have mine disconnected with no issues.

I really need a copy of INPA. I don't have anything to adjust the settings with.
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  #66  
Old 03-22-2014, 07:59 PM
pcb5 pcb5 is offline
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Glad somebody else finally tried this.
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  #67  
Old 03-23-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Mine was set to max, .8mm, prior to rebuilding the engine and it still had the smoking @ idle issue
Is it possible that water was going in thru the cracked cylinder causing the smoke? (How was water consumption prior to rebuild)

Funny - I just purchased a used SeaDoo Speedster jet boat - When the seller cranked it up and it was smoking, the first thing out of my mouth was "Did BMW engineers design these?" I started a thread in the SeaDoo forum for help titled - Speedster & BMW are alike, both smoke.
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  #68  
Old 03-23-2014, 09:02 AM
aber57 aber57 is offline
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I still contend that the switch from valve lift throttling to throttle blade throttling brings down crankcase pressure. You have oil dribbling off the end of the cam follower (rocker arm) running down exhaust valve stem and over the valve stem seal. The exhaust pressure at idle and low revs is low and actually has vacuum pulses at the instant of valve closing due to inertia of the exhaust gases. If you have a bit of vacuum in the crankcase then the exhaust can't pull the oil through a loose seal. with engine idling place a flat section of rubber glove over the removed oil filler cap and see if it draws inward. On my 550i with valve tronic functioning this results in pules with the glove bowing outward a bit.
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  #69  
Old 03-27-2014, 06:10 PM
pcb5 pcb5 is offline
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Hey guys, just a little update. The wife had to run to Jacksonville for a few days over the past week. This turned out to be, roughly 650 mile round trip, all interstate. The car performed great, with the solenoids still disconnected. No smoking, no adding oil, etc...

Just wanted to post for those that might be concerned about long term effects that might come from the solenoids being disconnected. So far no issues.
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  #70  
Old 03-28-2014, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by aber57 View Post
On my 550i with valve tronic functioning this results in pules with the glove bowing outward a bit.
This is the need for vacuum pump?
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  #71  
Old 03-28-2014, 06:53 AM
aber57 aber57 is offline
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No, the vacuum pump is for brake booster to have a vacuum for the brake assist function. Vacuum to clear crankcase must go to intake and into cylinders to be burned as does the vapor drawn from charcoal canister off the fuel tank.
Strangely enough the brake vacuum pump draws from the brake booster and it discharges into the inside of engine ( crankcase). If you had a leak in the booster or supply hose the crankcase pressure would go up from the extra air inflow of the pump.
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  #72  
Old 03-28-2014, 11:14 AM
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Yes I knew what the pump is for what I was getting at is your pulsation reasoning.As in this is the reason for an external vacuum pump vs doing the norm and taking the boost vac from the intake.
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  #73  
Old 03-28-2014, 11:46 AM
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You sure about the vacuum pump discharge into crankcase?Thats very interesting!!
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  #74  
Old 03-28-2014, 03:02 PM
aber57 aber57 is offline
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Yes, I have had several of these pumps off other engines, they all like to leak at 75000 miles it seems. The pump is engine oil lubed and if it vented to outside it would lose oil. The engine driven diaphragm vac pumps used in the past were noisy as they did have external discharge and they fell in disfavor for the noise they made.

Valvetronic throttles the engine with valve lift and the intake manifold throttle is opened to a greater angle so there is no pistons going down with intake valves open evacuating the intake behind a closed throttle creating high vacuum. With variable cam timing (BMW speak= VANOS) and the cold start and initial run strategy used these days most turbo engines also use a vacuum pump. These pumps can be electric or engine driven.

I was giving my opinion as to what could make oil consumption go down with Valvetronic canceled. The only thing I could see that would do it was what I posted.

Last edited by aber57; 03-28-2014 at 03:04 PM.
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  #75  
Old 03-28-2014, 05:09 PM
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aber57 don't take me wrong,I hadn't thought of the vacuum pump dumping into the crankcase.This could cause a slew of other problems if like you said a hose leak from booster.Do you know why this booster hose had a recall at some point?Thanks aber57.
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