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  #176  
Old 08-18-2014, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
I spoke with my buddy about the visibility issue and he pointed out that we have this technology now where you can type in "sprint car helmet cam" in the search box and get an idea of just what they can see when they're in the car. I done it:

What is a camera mounted high up on the exterior of the car supposed to prove?
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  #177  
Old 08-18-2014, 09:41 PM
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Lets try something a bit more realistic.

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  #178  
Old 08-19-2014, 12:54 AM
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see those front wheels-a-twitching ..
Yes, thank you , I get that the front wheels twitch in the normal course of things. However, in the OP video:



at the 8 to 9 second mark, Stewart's front wheel makes more than a twitch to the right, oddly enough exactly when Stewart's rear right tire is adjacent to Wards front tire/wheel. Stewart's car also lurched significantly to the right. Such a tactic enables the striking car to stay on the track as the momentum that was taking him to the rail is transferred to the struck car. Ward was persuade that Stewart had lurched hard to the right at the precise moment needed to take him out of the race. Further, Ward was backing off, giving Stewart the right of way when it happened.

As for the second go round when Ward went down, I'm not buying the 'wheels a twitchin' routine. It was not race speed. In this slo-mo vid you can clearly see Stewart's car's rear end fishtail to the right just at the instant that Ward's body disappears from view. That would be before Ward did his dastardly attempt to grab the wing to try to steal Tony's decals or something:



His car then does some more fishtailing. In the normal speed vid you can CLEARLY see the front wheel jerk hard to the right and then the left in the midst of the fishtailing maneuver. In both you can see Stewart's car begin near the inside turn and finish well up on the track. The contrast between his and #45's trajectory is pronounced.

I'm sorry y'all. You got no legs to stand on here. I don't think Stewart wanted to kill him, probably not even to hit him. But he did, and it happened because of his boneheaded maneuver, and OF COURSE, because of Ward's being on the track. The latter is not sufficient to absolve Stewart. It was a yellow flag, which Stewart clearly acknowledged because he was only going about 35 mph.
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  #179  
Old 08-19-2014, 01:03 AM
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Lets try something a bit more realistic.

Holy crap, why couldn't that guy leave his helmet alone? He's lucky he didn't take someone out. The view doesn't look that much different from the vid I posted. Both of them have to peak out under the wing. And they are both labeled at top as 'in car cam(era).' The first vid camera was definitely not mounted on top of the wing.

I gather that the bars where a windshield might be is not that common. I can't see it in the cars in the OP vid.

And on this business of not being able to see to the right, they wouldn't make it through half of the race if driver's didn't have some visibility to their right.
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  #180  
Old 08-20-2014, 10:40 AM
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Wish I was out there with ya.


I've been hooked since the first day on the track.
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  #181  
Old 08-20-2014, 10:44 AM
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Holy crap, why couldn't that guy leave his helmet alone? He's lucky he didn't take someone out. The view doesn't look that much different from the vid I posted. Both of them have to peak out under the wing. And they are both labeled at top as 'in car cam(era).' The first vid camera was definitely not mounted on top of the wing.

I gather that the bars where a windshield might be is not that common. I can't see it in the cars in the OP vid.

And on this business of not being able to see to the right, they wouldn't make it through half of the race if driver's didn't have some visibility to their right.

In the video you posted the camera is mounted towards the top of the roll cage just under the wing. In my video the camera is approximately at eye level. Now put a car in front of Stewart and you have to admit even if he did see him it was only for a split second or two. I know you want to think Stewart murdered him but that's only because I think he didn't.
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  #182  
Old 08-20-2014, 11:58 AM
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I know you want to think Stewart murdered him but that's only because I think he didn't.
It would be silly for anyone to base their opinion on someone else's opinion.

I base my opinion on what's in the video, and what Stewart said in public before the race. I think Stewart murdered him because he had the mindset to do it. He stated he'd do it in advance. He could have done a lot in that split second that everyone else used to avoid Ward. Instead, he blipped the throttle and swung the tail out to teach Ward a lesson.
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  #183  
Old 08-20-2014, 09:47 PM
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Game, set and match.


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  #184  
Old 08-20-2014, 09:50 PM
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It would be silly for anyone to base their opinion on someone else's opinion.

I base my opinion on what's in the video, and what Stewart said in public before the race. I think Stewart murdered him because he had the mindset to do it. He stated he'd do it in advance. He could have done a lot in that split second that everyone else used to avoid Ward. Instead, he blipped the throttle and swung the tail out to teach Ward a lesson.

Stewart had to have know Ward was going to grab his wing to even consider it to be murder. Is Stewart just that good that he could predict Wards actions?
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  #185  
Old 08-20-2014, 11:07 PM
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In the video you posted the camera is mounted towards the top of the roll cage just under the wing. In my video the camera is approximately at eye level. Now put a car in front of Stewart and you have to admit even if he did see him it was only for a split second or two. I know you want to think Stewart murdered him but that's only because I think he didn't.
Uh, what? You think you said something funny?

You know very little about me regarding any story or event, including this one. My opinion is wholly independent of what you want to think about it, trust me. And I think Stewart guilty of, at most, manslaughter.

Ward was standing towards the end of a turn. When Stewart entered the turn, Ward would not have been hidden from view by #45. It is clear that Stewart recognized the yellow flag as he was going maybe 35 mph. He would have been looking to see what was up. The cockpit view from your vid is a bit different than the one I posted but not that much different.

This slo-mo vid is the best one I've seen:



Oddly enough, I can see him hanging on the wing more clearly on my iPhone. At any rate, look at the angle of Stewart's trajectory relative to the inside edge of the track. #45 followed it , the inside edge pretty closely. You can see Stewart angling upfield. Just as Ward disappears from view you can see the ass end of Stewart's car fishtail out to the right. This would have been well before Ward was able to grab the wing. My take is that he started to backpedal when he saw that Stewart was aiming upfield, at him.

We'll never know for certain, but my take is that he saw that fat, 700 hp driven rear wheel coming at him and did the only split second thing he could to avoid it: grabbed the wing. The lower body is well inward, couldn't push off on that. The wing sticks out about as far as the tire and it's at waist and shoulder height.

Your 'game, set, and match' thing is absurd. Illustrates further, not that it's needed, that you are not thinking clearly about this. Ward did not go down there to grab his wing. Why in God's name would anyone want to do that? He wanted to flip him off, to yell at him, etc.

The grabbing the wing thing almost worked. He apparently didn't go under the tire, but when he dropped off, or rather was flung off, I suspect it broke his neck on the tumble.

The sound of the engine, the OBIVOUS fishtailing movement of the car, and the clear steering wheel movements - more easily seen in the real time vid, make it clear beyond doubt that Stewart engaged in some sort of reckless 'Imo scare this punk' or something. Maybe even thought he could knock him down. I really, really doubt that Stewart has the sort of insanity going on that would move him to intentionally murder another driver and put his career in the toilet, where it may well be at this moment regardless.
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  #186  
Old 08-20-2014, 11:48 PM
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Uh, what? You think you said something funny?

You know very little about me regarding any story or event, including this one. My opinion is wholly independent of what you want to think about it, trust me. And I think Stewart guilty of, at most, manslaughter.

Ward was standing towards the end of a turn. When Stewart entered the turn, Ward would not have been hidden from view by #45. It is clear that Stewart recognized the yellow flag as he was going maybe 35 mph. He would have been looking to see what was up. The cockpit view from your vid is a bit different than the one I posted but not that much different.

This slo-mo vid is the best one I've seen:



Oddly enough, I can see him hanging on the wing more clearly on my iPhone. At any rate, look at the angle of Stewart's trajectory relative to the inside edge of the track. #45 followed it , the inside edge pretty closely. You can see Stewart angling upfield. Just as Ward disappears from view you can see the ass end of Stewart's car fishtail out to the right. This would have been well before Ward was able to grab the wing. My take is that he started to backpedal when he saw that Stewart was aiming upfield, at him.

We'll never know for certain, but my take is that he saw that fat, 700 hp driven rear wheel coming at him and did the only split second thing he could to avoid it: grabbed the wing. The lower body is well inward, couldn't push off on that. The wing sticks out about as far as the tire and it's at waist and shoulder height.

Your 'game, set, and match' thing is absurd. Illustrates further, not that it's needed, that you are not thinking clearly about this. Ward did not go down there to grab his wing. Why in God's name would anyone want to do that? He wanted to flip him off, to yell at him, etc.

The grabbing the wing thing almost worked. He didn't go under the tire, but when he dropped off, or rather was flung off, I suspect it broke his neck on the tumble.

The sound of the engine, the OBIVOUS fishtailing movement of the car, and the clear steering wheel movements - more easily seen in the real time vid, make it clear beyond doubt that Stewart engaged in some sort of reckless 'Imo scare this punk' or something. Maybe even thought he could knock him down. I really, really doubt that Stewart has the sort of insanity going on that would move him to intentionally murder another driver and put his career in the toilet, where it may well be at this moment regardless.

You can't even prove the sound came from his car. Even if it did you have no way to prove it was done with the intent to hit Ward. This wheel movement you keep referring to is a red herring. One would expect the wheel to move after hitting an object. Who knows why Ward went down there. Maybe his intent was to kick the car as it went by. Maybe he wanted to pop Tony in the head. We'll never know. Fact is Ward put himself in grave danger and almost everyone agrees.
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  #187  
Old 08-21-2014, 12:27 AM
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Those cars have power steering. No way is a hitting a body going to make the wheels jerk like that, especially if the front wheels didn't hit the body.

The sound of his car matches the fishtailing. There must be some sort of directional ability on that mic as we can hear #45 rumbling by when the cam is pointed at it. Once more I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT STEWART INTENDED TO HIT HIM. Slim possibility but much more likely he wanted to throw dirt on him or back him off.

The trajectory of the car is clear. He headed upfield. Word I've heard is that Stewart hadn't been able to beat Ward. That tells me the kid had skill and smarts. Only a moron would try to kick a car going that fast.

My buddy has been to races in many states. His family lives in NC, he hates flying, so he drives his pickup when he visits and takes his oxy-acet. rig with him. Can be hard to get that 220 hook up when you want it. He plans his trips to visit tracks on the road and farms out his skills. His best form is TIG, but that's in his shop. His oxy-acet. work is very good. Anyway, what he says agrees with Kinney and contradicts you: he's seen drivers get out and complain many times. It was surely something that Stewart had seen before.

But yeah, I can't prove $h1t. I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to put Stewart in jail. Even if he didn't intend to hit him, which I give 98% chance of being the case, doing something reckless in trying to scare him can get him in some sort of doo-doo with the law if someone gets hurt. Criminal negligence is one possible charge. Manslaughter another notch higher. But I suspect it will be a civil suit that will hurt him. He may well slide w/o any criminal charge.

And that's to say nothing of possible pain from sponsors. Maybe they'll stick with him. Maybe they won't. I suspect he's considered a marginal character already. Very crude person in public. Grabbing other driver's wives on the ass in public and the like, and this while in human billboard sponsor machine mode.
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  #188  
Old 08-21-2014, 09:20 AM
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Game, set and match.


What I see is Ward grabbing on for dear life AFTER Stewart gunned it to nail him.

But you will believe what you want to believe. Did the car before Stewart gun the engine? Nope.

Case closed.
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  #189  
Old 08-21-2014, 10:11 AM
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What I see is Ward grabbing on for dear life AFTER Stewart gunned it to nail him.

But you will believe what you want to believe. Did the car before Stewart gun the engine? Nope.

Case closed.

False.

You have no idea who gunned the engine. I maintain it might have been car #45 just as much as it might have been Stewart. Either way it doesn't mean anything. If Stewart had gunned the engine he may have simply been trying to change his course the best way he knew how. If he wanted to clip Ward with the back end he wouldn't have gotten out of the gas. Ward may have grabbed onto the wing to push himself away or did so in a fit of rage.
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  #190  
Old 08-21-2014, 10:16 AM
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The trajectory of the car is clear. He headed upfield. Word I've heard is that Stewart hadn't been able to beat Ward. That tells me the kid had skill and smarts. Only a moron would try to kick a car going that fast.

I don't know about that. Looks to me like Stewart passed him pretty easily. Ward only got up next to Stewart again when Stewart was slowing down for the caution. This is what really caused the accident in the first place.

Turns out the kid wasn't all that smart now was he. Approaching a sprint car that closely on the track is stupid and suicidal. Who knows, Ward was in a fit of rage and people do dumb things when they get like that.
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  #191  
Old 08-21-2014, 11:50 AM
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I don't know about that. Looks to me like Stewart passed him pretty easily. Ward only got up next to Stewart again when Stewart was slowing down for the caution. This is what really caused the accident in the first place.

Turns out the kid wasn't all that smart now was he. Approaching a sprint car that closely on the track is stupid and suicidal. Who knows, Ward was in a fit of rage and people do dumb things when they get like that.
Let's put aside any discussion of the first go round. May have been a normal racing accident, may have been Stewart nerfing him. Doesn't really matter.

When I referred to heading upfield, I'm talking about during and before his encounter with Ward in his skin. This business about where the engine sound is coming from is weak, as is this thing about him needing to steer with his engine. At slower speeds, these cars do just fine with the steering wheels. You can see that in the car cam vids. And the engine sound PERFECTLY matches the fishtailing. Any lag from speed of sound vs. speed of light would be tiny. I did the math, about 1/5th or 1/4th of a second.

There was no reason in hell for TS to gun it and fishtail at that point. Going upfield at that moment had no advantage. He wasn't going to pass #45. You can clearly see that TS was already heading upfield as he comes next to Ward and continues while he's striking him. That tells me that TS had been following 45 in the groove and changed to go upfield shortly before he came upon Ward. Ward could see where he had been and when TS changed direction started to backpedal. If he'd been on that course from the beginning of the turn, he'd have been into the outside wall by then.

Ward was smart enough to not get hit by any other car. #45 did not noticeably change his position when he came upon Ward. Ward's behavior was not bright but neither was it malicious. This sort of thing is common in the sport, race promoters even use it to create buzz in NASCAR. I'm guessing no one goes on the actual track under yellow flag in NASCAR as the speeds are so much higher. But beefs on pit row and entry tracks are common.

We haven't heard of a similar accident in the sport before because most drivers behave with some restraint when there's a person on the track and a yellow flag is out.
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  #192  
Old 08-21-2014, 12:12 PM
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Let's put aside any discussion of the first go round. May have been a normal racing accident, may have been Stewart nerfing him. Doesn't really matter.

When I referred to heading upfield, I'm talking about during and before his encounter with Ward in his skin. This business about where the engine sound is coming from is weak, as is this thing about him needing to steer with his engine. At slower speeds, these cars do just fine with the steering wheels. You can see that in the car cam vids. And the engine sound PERFECTLY matches the fishtailing. Any lag from speed of sound vs. speed of light would be tiny. I did the math, about 1/5th or 1/4th of a second.

There was no reason in hell for TS to gun it and fishtail at that point. Going upfield at that moment had no advantage. He wasn't going to pass #45. You can clearly see that TS was already heading upfield as he comes next to Ward and continues while he's striking him. That tells me that TS had been following 45 in the groove and changed to go upfield shortly before he came upon Ward. Ward could see where he had been and when TS changed direction started to backpedal. If he'd been on that course from the beginning of the turn, he'd have been into the outside wall by then.

Ward was smart enough to not get hit by any other car. #45 did not noticeably change his position when he came upon Ward. Ward's behavior was not bright but neither was it malicious. This sort of thing is common in the sport, race promoters even use it to create buzz in NASCAR. I'm guessing no one goes on the actual track under yellow flag in NASCAR as the speeds are so much higher. But beefs on pit row and entry tracks are common.

We haven't heard of a similar accident in the sport before because most drivers behave with some restraint when there's a person on the track and a yellow flag is out.

I don't know why you continue to say it's common. In my experience it is not. I raced in IMCA modifieds for six years and have been involved with sprint cars for over 10 years. I've never seen a driver out of his car on the track unless he was being extricated from his car. I realize this happens more frequently in NASCAR and one day someone will get killed there too. Knowing this danger I find it inconceivable that TS would do anything to endanger the life of someone walking on the track. If it was TS who blipped the throttle he had probably not even seen Ward at that point. Blipping the throttle under caution is quite common and nothing unusual. We have a black car with a driver in a black suit on a dark road surface with poor lighting and why you insist TS did something wrong is beyond me. Combine that with the fact that it was Ward who exited his car and approached TS's car it seem ridiculous to lay the blame at TS feet.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:39 PM
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This is Redneck Fratricide, plain and simple. It's Jerry Springer on the race track, with one armed opponent and one unarmed. Ward obviously didn't have a functioning brain cell, but I think it's clear TS didn't avoid him. TS's mentality wouldn't let him back down. He had to show Ward who had the bigger phallus. I think he had plenty of time to avoid Ward and chose not to.

I hope Stewart gets more than a slap on the wrist for this, but maybe the law will ignore it as an accident. If Ward didn't fall far from the rest of the family tree, then I expect that his family might put down the moonshine and arrange some old fashioned frontier justice.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:58 PM
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I don't know why you continue to say it's common. In my experience it is not. I raced in IMCA modifieds for six years and have been involved with sprint cars for over 10 years. I've never seen a driver out of his car on the track unless he was being extricated from his car. I realize this happens more frequently in NASCAR and one day someone will get killed there too. Knowing this danger I find it inconceivable that TS would do anything to endanger the life of someone walking on the track. If it was TS who blipped the throttle he had probably not even seen Ward at that point. Blipping the throttle under caution is quite common and nothing unusual. We have a black car with a driver in a black suit on a dark road surface with poor lighting and why you insist TS did something wrong is beyond me. Combine that with the fact that it was Ward who exited his car and approached TS's car it seem ridiculous to lay the blame at TS feet.
The white lines on Ward's suit were clearly visible. TS turning of the wheels and hitting the gas at exactly the right time to move in a threatening manner towards Ward is one hell of a coincidence. If he had been one length behind #45 that would be one thing. But there was plenty of room. The other routine about Ward being to his right, in his blind side is another bit of apologist nonsense. Being on a curve like that, Ward would have been directly in front of him or to his left in terms of line of sight until he came upon him.

Stewart's hot-headedness is well known. He's an arrogant ass who thinks he's some kind of superstar. My guess is that sponsors are telling him to sit out. We'll see how long it lasts.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:01 PM
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This is Redneck Fratricide, plain and simple. It's Jerry Springer on the race track, with one armed opponent and one unarmed. Ward obviously didn't have a functioning brain cell, but I think it's clear TS didn't avoid him. TS's mentality wouldn't let him back down. He had to show Ward who had the bigger phallus. I think he had plenty of time to avoid Ward and chose not to.

I hope Stewart gets more than a slap on the wrist for this, but maybe the law will ignore it as an accident. If Ward didn't fall far from the rest of the family tree, then I expect that his family might put down the moonshine and arrange some old fashioned frontier justice.
Ward and his family strike me as decent people. I'm going to predict that Stewart's dirt track career is over. Plenty of people see what he did. Small town fans are not going to forget it.
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Old 08-21-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by FIA View Post
I don't know why you continue to say it's common. In my experience it is not. I raced in IMCA modifieds for six years and have been involved with sprint cars for over 10 years. I've never seen a driver out of his car on the track unless he was being extricated from his car. I realize this happens more frequently in NASCAR and one day someone will get killed there too. Knowing this danger I find it inconceivable that TS would do anything to endanger the life of someone walking on the track. If it was TS who blipped the throttle he had probably not even seen Ward at that point. Blipping the throttle under caution is quite common and nothing unusual. We have a black car with a driver in a black suit on a dark road surface with poor lighting and why you insist TS did something wrong is beyond me. Combine that with the fact that it was Ward who exited his car and approached TS's car it seem ridiculous to lay the blame at TS feet.
Let me add that it does seem to be a puzzle that you've not seen that getting out and gesturing business during races and my buddy and the other driver Kinney, have. I'm not ready to call any of you a liar, I have no reason to doubt any of you.

All I can guess is that it might be a regional thing. Could be some tracks, some areas, are more strict about pointing out that such stuff is forbidden.

And I don't get why you can't see that the camera had no problem recording all of that poorly lit action. Ward's actions were foolish, but Stewart behaved in a recklessly petulant fashion. Came across as a chicken**** to me and I'm not alone in that assessment.
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Last edited by cmac2012; 08-21-2014 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
The white lines on Ward's suit were clearly visible. TS turning of the wheels and hitting the gas at exactly the right time to move in a threatening manner towards Ward is one hell of a coincidence. If he had been one length behind #45 that would be one thing. But there was plenty of room. The other routine about Ward being to his right, in his blind side is another bit of apologist nonsense. Being on a curve like that, Ward would have been directly in front of him or to his left in terms of line of sight until he came upon him.

Stewart's hot-headedness is well known. He's an arrogant ass who thinks he's some kind of superstar. My guess is that sponsors are telling him to sit out. We'll see how long it lasts.

Watch the video for yourself. There is no more than two seconds between the time #45 passes Ward and TS hits him. Two seconds to identify the threat and react.


There's something that has me confused and maybe you can help me out. Seriously I'm not jacking around. Listen for the sound of a car accelerating on each video. On clip has the sound occur before TS's car even enters the frame. The other video plays the sound at exactly the time TS's car hits wards. I never noticed this before but someone is trying to mislead about this incident.

Watch the two videos. There are two version and the timing of the sound is different in each.




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Old 08-21-2014, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mark_m5 View Post
This is Redneck Fratricide, plain and simple. It's Jerry Springer on the race track, with one armed opponent and one unarmed. Ward obviously didn't have a functioning brain cell, but I think it's clear TS didn't avoid him. TS's mentality wouldn't let him back down. He had to show Ward who had the bigger phallus. I think he had plenty of time to avoid Ward and chose not to.

I hope Stewart gets more than a slap on the wrist for this, but maybe the law will ignore it as an accident. If Ward didn't fall far from the rest of the family tree, then I expect that his family might put down the moonshine and arrange some old fashioned frontier justice.



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Old 08-21-2014, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FIA View Post
Watch the video for yourself. There is no more than two seconds between the time #45 passes Ward and TS hits him. Two seconds to identify the threat and react.


There's something that has me confused and maybe you can help me out. Seriously I'm not jacking around. Listen for the sound of a car accelerating on each video. On clip has the sound occur before TS's car even enters the frame. The other video plays the sound at exactly the time TS's car hits wards. I never noticed this before but someone is trying to mislead about this incident.

Watch the two videos. There are two version and the timing of the sound is different in each.
The second one is way off. Who knows what happened there. If they're trying to put their thumb on the scales, they did it badly. The sound doesn't match the fishtail at all. The first one does pretty well.

In the slo-mo vid, you can see the rear kick to the right just as he reaches Ward, before Ward has a chance to grab anything. I read online that the cars have a disc brake on the front left, and no brake on the front right. This fits with what my neighbor says, if you tap the brakes it'll pull left. He had enough time to hit the brakes but he hit the gas cause that's the way they steer? Ain't buying it.

I don't for a minute think Stewart wanted to kill him or even thought about hurting him. It was more sort of a 'FY punk' that went wrong.

Who knows how it will shake out but my guess is that sponsors will think 'You know what? We've got a lot of up and coming young drivers who are just itching to drive NASCAR. Do we really need the damaged goods of Tony Stewart?' NASCAR is way bigger than Tony Stewart.
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Old 08-28-2014, 06:16 PM
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CHARLOTTE, N.C. Tony Stewart will return to Sprint Cup competition Sunday night at Atlanta Motor Speedway, ending a three-race hiatus taken after he struck and killed a fellow driver during a dirt-track race.
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2014/0...cmp=latestnews

Good to see Tony getting back in the game.
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