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F22 / F23 2 Series (2014 - Current)
The 2 Series coupe is the replacement for the E82/E88 1 series coupe. Production starts in November 2013 on the 228i (N20) and M235i (N55) coupes. Look for them in dealerships in February 2014. The convertible F23 2 series will follow in the fall of 2014.

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  #26  
Old 01-16-2017, 10:30 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnL345 View Post
Your situation was/is a lot different. An M series is a different class than someone looking at the standard car (non special) lines equipped as they want it. More concessions are likely involved.

I disagree about your view of leasing. For a lot of people it makes a lot of sense. For others buying is best. I would note that buying cars these days with the intent to keep it beyond the warrantee parameters is a bit of a gamble.

I think you hit on a key factor. Timing. Lease or buy, when you need the car--when you are "in the market"--is critical.

The main reason dealers "balk" at ordering cars is their priority is selling cars already in stock--cars they have purchased (and in some cases "borrowed" money to purchase those cars).

Finally,there's the amount of "work" you as a buyer/leaser want to put into the process. Rarely does a dealer "take a bath" on any car. There's a lot that goes into pricing and the system is "rigged" so dealers can make money beyond the difference between MSRP, sticker and tissue etc. Holdback, factory incentives--dealer (unpublished), consumer (published--maybe). Lease and finance rates, fees etc.

I do like your approach. As long as you are happy, then who makes what is not so important.
M cars roll down the same assembly lines as non-M BMW's. The really good ones (E30, E46, E82, F87) have initial demand vastly outweigh supply. So, their initial purchase price is high. But, their resale value is also high. In contrast, dealers were putting E90 M3's on eBay with big discounts right after they came out. When a dealer buys an M for the lot, they're hoping to make a lot of money from an impulse buyer. But, it that car's been there a few months, they get real nervous, just like with any other BMW.

I've done the math and collected the data on depreciation, maintenance costs, leasing, and buying. That first four years/50k miles of driving (leasing or owning) a BMW is roughly twice the cost of the second four years/50k miles of owning the same BMW. Here is my actual annual depreciation and maintenance costs for my M3 for the twelve years I owned it, and the data for my 535i, two years of actual data and projected data for the next six years. The ownership costs (depreciation, maintenance, capital costs) will be about $1/mile for the first four years, and about $0.50/mile for the second four years.

The main reason consumers lease cars is to drive more car than they can really afford. There are a lot of good reasons for business to lease vehicles, though. But, that's a totally different situation.

One obscure benefit that a consumer gets from leasing is risk mitigation. It the car's wrecked or ends up being a lemon, it's not your problem. We're probably going to buy a G01 X3 when production starts in the 2018 model year. I normally prefer not to buy a car when it initially goes into production. But, Frau Putzer is overdue for a new car. She's also extremely rough on cars, having wrecked her last two cars, and also one of her father's cars when she was in college. Fortunately, it was his Plymouth Fury, not his Jaguar E-Type. So, I'd be more likely to lease that X3, and then buy it at the end of the lease if it's a good car and if it's still in one piece after three years of her driving.

Every dealer's ultimate goals to make money. Once you convince them their only two choices are make money ordering a car or make no money when you buy a car from somebody else, most of them come around. The high-pressure tactic for selling cars relies on pushing you into a impulse buy that day Special ordering cars doesn't fit into the high-pressure tactics. But, if they're assholes about selling cars, expect them to also be assholes about fixing cars.

Our local Honda dealer sold out to a big corporation and they now practice high-pressure sales tactics. They gave me some blowback about ordering a car. I told the sales manager to stop talking and that I'm leaving. I'm at the point in life where about the only people I accept any blowback from are cops. So, we're buying our fourth BMW instead of our third Honda.

Yeah, manufacturers subsidized last model year lot bunnies. Most dealers finance their inventories. The industry term is "floor planning." But, when a car has been on the lot over two or three months, accruing floor plan interest, taking up a parking space needed for a current model car, and accumulating "lot rash", or possibly being jinxed or demonically possessed, a dealer is willing to cut his profits or even take a bath to make it disappear.
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Last edited by Autoputzer; 01-16-2017 at 10:34 AM.
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  #27  
Old 01-16-2017, 12:55 PM
JohnL345 JohnL345 is offline
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I am not sure the M Class is an impulse buy for most.
Risk mitigation is very important. The maintenance on an out of warrantee car can add up quickly.
Even minor repairs are painful.

In reality, most/a large chunk of the money dealers "make" is from parts and service.

I guess we are wandering off the subject.

The 2016 228ix is a terrific car. Better than the F30--the 228 is closer to the E90.
The three series, like the C Class is getting a bit bigger and leans a bit more toward comfort than
handling. The target is obviously aging boomers.

By the way--there's supply and demand--I recall years ago the AG going after Honda dealers here in the NYC area for tacking on
an additional "fee" to the MSRP--the Accord was extremely "hot" back then. Inventory was tight and there were few "deals" out there.
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  #28  
Old 01-16-2017, 04:03 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnL345 View Post
I am not sure the M Class is an impulse buy for most.
Risk mitigation is very important. The maintenance on an out of warrantee car can add up quickly.
Even minor repairs are painful.

In reality, most/a large chunk of the money dealers "make" is from parts and service.

I guess we are wandering off the subject.

The 2016 228ix is a terrific car. Better than the F30--the 228 is closer to the E90.
The three series, like the C Class is getting a bit bigger and leans a bit more toward comfort than
handling. The target is obviously aging boomers.

By the way--there's supply and demand--I recall years ago the AG going after Honda dealers here in the NYC area for tacking on
an additional "fee" to the MSRP--the Accord was extremely "hot" back then. Inventory was tight and there were few "deals" out there.
I practice rigorous accounting for my personal finances. I track annual depreciation of my cars. Most of the time, repairs of a BMW are trivial compared to the depreciation. My M3 had $7k in repairs and scheduled maintenance in the 12th year. That was annoying, if not necessarily painful. But it was nothing compared to the $19k of depreciation of my 535i the first year I owned it. I replaced the M3 because it was no longer reliable enough for road trips.

Most cars get larger when they're redesigned. The only exceptions I can think of are the E30 3 Series (when we thought the world was running out of oil), and the recent Corvettes. The 911's a good example of how cars grow over time with each redesign.

People assign value to size. Also, the cost of building a car is only mildly dependent on the size of the car. So, redesigning a specific car model to be slightly larger increases customer-perceived value (which translates into a higher sales price) without significantly increasing the production cost.

I bought an F10 also because we need a family trip car larger than my old E46 M3 (especially with the spare tire I carried in the trunk). When Frau Putzer gets her next car, likely either an X3 or a Mercedes-Benz GLC300, that will become our family trip car and I can downsize for my next expensive car. If I were to guess, it will be a future version of a 230i, M2, or Porsche 911. These cars would only be two-persons cars for local driving and only a one-person car for a road trip, though.

I'm o.k. with the size of the current M4. But, for their price when well equipped I have to start thinking about a 911. But at $60k the M2, even being rough around the edges, might make me forget about a 911.

A lot of people buy M's as impulse buys. But, there has to be an M car on the lot for that to happen. A friend of mine has an acquaintance who bought a 760Li as an impulse buy. He told my friend "I liked the color and I could drive it off right then." My uncle buys peasant brand cars, but he does it on impulse. He takes his old car in for service, and on a whim comes home with a new car.

The current way new cars are sold (massive inventories, massive dealership lots, large sales staffs tripping over each other) is very inefficient. But, the system evolve that way for a reason. It's the most profitable way to sell cars. A lot of people need, want, and pay dearly for the rush of driving into a dealership and driving out with a new car in an hour or two. That speed in the process is also how dealerships buy customers' used cars for far less than the customer could get selling it on their own.

Back in the 1980's a lot of domestic brand dealerships tried to copy the way high-end cars were sold in Germany. They eliminated their inventory, only having demonstrators on site. You would have to factory order a car. They also eliminated their large sales staffs. To get waited on, you pretty much had to make an appointment with one of their few but very busy salesman. The upside of this process was they'd sell new cars for $50 to $100 over invoice without a knock down, drag out fight. That sounds like the perfect place to buy a car to me. But, the whole idea crashed in flames and those dealers went back to the old and current way of selling new cars.
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Last edited by Autoputzer; 01-18-2017 at 08:30 PM.
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  #29  
Old 01-17-2017, 08:58 AM
Mark K Mark K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnL345 View Post
BMW is also becoming confusing--too many packages, options and variants--they are moving closer to GM back in the day--"oh so a radio and hubcaps are "extra" in my Pontiac!"--a hint of the increasing confusion was the really bad idea of those "three carlines" offered when the F30 was introduced. Build a great car, equip it with simple packages that make sense marketing wise (there's that $1450 for leather charge again). Consumers shouldn't have to spend hours on line "building" the car they "want" and figuring out
how much it costs--then try and find that car in inventory!
Quote:
these cars/deals are "advertised" and Unless you are looking to "build" your own car--involving wait time and likely close to full price
I personally see nothing wrong with ordering exactly what I want when spending north of $40,000 to purchase then half of that more for use and depreciation in next 3-4 years. That's a lot of money to buy what someone else thought you should buy (off dealer's lot). That you are suggesting all of us need restricted choices when spending that much money so you can find what you want on the lot is, frankly, appalling.

Carry on, as you were.
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Last edited by Mark K; 01-17-2017 at 09:00 AM.
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  #30  
Old 01-18-2017, 03:10 PM
kenny164 kenny164 is offline
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But... it doesn't cost the dealer anything to take an order for a new car.
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  #31  
Old 02-08-2017, 08:30 PM
BillD1953 BillD1953 is offline
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Location: Massachusetts
 
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Posts: 57
Mein Auto: ML 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ismagic# View Post
I'm interested. The biggest thing keeping me from getting a 2 series is the two-doors. I have a 7 year old and a 2 year old and the wife would never sanction the purchase of a 2-door coupe. The current 2 series is just not practical for me.
I bought a new 2016 228i 6MT stripped (heated front seats and back up camera).
I absolutely LOVE the car....but two things not so much.

1. the big doors.....must be careful opening all the way...easy to tag the car, wall or post next to the car.

2. I have six grand kids and alaways being asked at the last minute to "uber" one or two around someplace. plenty of room in the back seat...pain in the ass for one or two of them to get in and out of the back seat.

Add me to the list for a 4 door 6MT 2er...

Regards, Bill D
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