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Dissapointed in the new M3

21K views 154 replies 49 participants last post by  brkf 
#1 ·
Yes, I know I will start some flaming but hear me out.

M3's used to be about buying the racing machine. It used to be about buying the engine used to race professionally. The M engines were magic. It used the latest and greatest in everything and it was a sight to behold (E30 for instance). When it came out there was nothing better than it.

The other thing is that M3's used to be about nimble agility rather than raw power.

The new M3 is a porker. V8??? The whole escalation of engine size and power is as intelligent as dinosaurs evolving to become larger and larger. We all know where that story will end. Not that the MV8 engine is not a nice engine, but there is nothing really outstanding about it. And the end figure of extracting 420 HP from 4 L is not remarkable at all today. Hell, the twin turbo in the 335i has much better technology.

What would have been outstanding would be if BMW M division created a '3' with the same power of the old M3 but weighing 200-400 pounds less. That is what I would call an improvement to the level M used to deliver. Less weight, more acceleration, better handling, cornering and breaking. We all know this...

It COULD have done it. If the new V8 weighs less than the inline 6 then why not create a new 6-cylinder weighing even less? I would have liked to have seen super-smart use of aluminum and carbon fiber. Not just for shows. I would have liked to have been surprised by BMW ingenuity.

But rather it created a porker. No doubt it will do well in america where people value raw horsepower over overall dynamics.
 
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#65 ·
i m looking at the website from www.bmw.com and they have a video on the new M3, at first when the car info was released..im like oh..bfd...but taking a good look at it on the main website .in various colors...its looks better and slicker than the e46.

just put on some carbon fiber flippers, swap the exhaust...and get some new shoes...

This car is going to look mighty nice.

I think Ill pick one up in 2009..:)
 
#71 ·
To me, it's always been like that. BMW introducing new technologies that customers are not yet ready to accept. And how can you compare a twin-turbo 3liter engine with a N/A 4liter one?

Also, ugly is one word to describe that car but, when the E46 M3 was out it was all over the same. "what's with the bulge?" "4 exhausts??" "too ricey!"
 
#74 ·
It sounds like some of you should check out the M coupe. Small, light, agile.

BMW is catering to market demand with the M3. The Sunday drivers. Most by them buy for the badge and drive them like Chevy's.

Very few M3's see a track. If BMW built cars for that specific market, they would sell very few.

BMW has a huge markup over the competition across all the model lines. They would never get the lofty prices if the cars were not roomy, powerful, and full of options.
 
#79 · (Edited)
It sounds like some of you should check out the M coupe. Small, light, agile.

BMW is catering to market demand with the M3. The Sunday drivers. Most by them buy for the badge and drive them like Chevy's.

Very few M3's see a track. If BMW built cars for that specific market, they would sell very few.

BMW has a huge markup over the competition across all the model lines. They would never get the lofty prices if the cars were not roomy, powerful, and full of options.
:stupid: BMW is a listed company (albeit half is in the hands of the Quandts), in the business of making money by selling cars. Although you could argue that each new generation of the ///M3 changes its identity (hence all this argument about the V8 versus I6, weight, size etc.), it's largely what BMW believes what the global markets want the ///M3 to be. They will not spend the R&D capital and come up with a product that they don't believe will sell. What you see is what the market wants, otherwise they will fail but BMW has been doing very well from a sales point of view.

The Z4M is nice and so will the upcoming coupe/convertible version of the 1 series.
 
#99 ·
I think someone has metioned this before but the BMW bean counters won't allow a releasable 3000lbs M3 if they did it would be $100+(GTR anyone). The BMW Techs would love to do this but the now new V8 M3 is the closest they would allow them to get.

I'll take one, Thanks.
 
#103 ·
Shared sentiments on the M3

Yeah, the M3 is going to be a good car but I think they could've did a lot of things better. Yes it's too much like the 3 series coupe but that's what this car is meant to be it's a supped up 3 series.. so that should be expected. Could they have use a better kit yeah... I really don't like the rear or side skirts. The biggest problem right now is that they used a V8, yeah we all know that the 335I has the better engine right now because it's turbocharged. But in time once the aftermarket gets a hold of the New M they'll be getting about 700+ from it easy. It's going to cost some dough though. To me the M3 is meant to be a Euro Tuner. The E36 and 46 are tuners... they aren't luxury cars they're tuners that are good on the track. If I were starting with an engine i'd choose the TT 335I engine just because it's already established. Someone mentioned the Evo getting 700HP that's because of the CR. Once they start making low CR pistons it's over! Also the M3 is heavier than the 335I... I guess that's because of the V8 as well. If I were making the M3 I would've made it wider, used the TT engine replaced one of the smaller turbos with a 500HP garrett GT, lowered the CR to about 9:1 and got silly with 1 bar. It'd be lighter because of the engine or about as light as the upcomming M3 but would have at least 500hp and 400LBFT torque. I truely was expecting the M3 to be in the 3300-3400 pound category. The 335I with the Procede is going to be faster than the M3, I want to say the regular 335I with an LSD would be just as fast because of it's torque. That's why BMW altered the driveline on the 335I so people couldn't add LSD's. In the end they should've used the TT engine and kept it a 6 cyl. You guys talking bad about turbo/FI engines look at the AMG's, look at all the Japanese cars... Skyline, silvia..., evo.... light weight because they use small engines and powerful. The 335I is better because of Direct injection. So expect 700HP + in the future.
 
#104 ·
Yeah, the M3 is going to be a good car but I think they could've did a lot of things better. Yes it's too much like the 3 series coupe but that's what this car is meant to be it's a supped up 3 series.. so that should be expected. Could they have use a better kit yeah... I really don't like the rear or side skirts. The biggest problem right now is that they used a V8, yeah we all know that the 335I has the better engine right now because it's turbocharged. But in time once the aftermarket gets a hold of the New M they'll be getting about 700+ from it easy. It's going to cost some dough though. To me the M3 is meant to be a Euro Tuner. The E36 and 46 are tuners... they aren't luxury cars they're tuners that are good on the track. If I were starting with an engine i'd choose the TT 335I engine just because it's already established. Someone mentioned the Evo getting 700HP that's because of the CR. Once they start making low CR pistons it's over! Also the M3 is heavier than the 335I... I guess that's because of the V8 as well. If I were making the M3 I would've made it wider, used the TT engine replaced one of the smaller turbos with a 500HP garrett GT, lowered the CR to about 9:1 and got silly with 1 bar. It'd be lighter because of the engine or about as light as the upcomming M3 but would have at least 500hp and 400LBFT torque. I truely was expecting the M3 to be in the 3300-3400 pound category. The 335I with the Procede is going to be faster than the M3, I want to say the regular 335I with an LSD would be just as fast because of it's torque. That's why BMW altered the driveline on the 335I so people couldn't add LSD's. In the end they should've used the TT engine and kept it a 6 cyl. You guys talking bad about turbo/FI engines look at the AMG's, look at all the Japanese cars... Skyline, silvia..., evo.... light weight because they use small engines and powerful. The 335I is better because of Direct injection. So expect 700HP + in the future.
I don't agree with everything you've said, but good first post. :thumbup:
 
#106 ·
Wrong... check out the feature on the BMW website... in the specs the car is around 3650LBS.

335I- 3571 [3582] lbs
M3 - 1,655KG's x 2.2 = 3641

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I don't know what EU means.. you have what seems to be a valid definition... Fuel weighs 200LBS?

Also Linear is lame.... when I put my foot on the peddle I want power... I don't want build up... The 335I will build speed faster.... because there's more torque available, and the torque is not the same... there's a difference between 300LBFT at 1200 than 295LBFT at 4400... that's a huge difference! Enormous difference!

AMG went NA to build a more efficient car... 7 speed trans too.. .to get better gas mileage. The 55's are still around and they still do turbo's and Superchargers... so they haven't went away from it. You are right, turbo's create a lot of heat... and add volatility to the car...

M3 is trying to compete with the RS4 we all know that.. I guess they just chose to go 2 door and 4 door. The V8 in the M3 is practically identical numbers wise to the RS 4 for a cheaper price so that should be a bit of a bargain... the problem is that it's RWD only and they built the 335I. Audi does it right they put turbo's on engines that aren't that great and add moderate power. BMW created a beast by accident and are trying to sell something else they wanted to be the beast... Same with Porsche they limit power output effectively to force you to get their top end model for the thrills. I see the X35 version of these cars being the best value and having the best sales.

Don't get me wrong... I love V8's I drive one now... love the grunt of it but when you put these types of cams on a V8 and make it top heavy what's the point? I guess you have to get that type of power out of that small of an engine. Someone said the V6 has more tech, I don't agree with that... the V8 has more tech but it still could've been better. I don't think it's direct injection... but the 3.0L turbo isn't VVTI, I believe... I may need to check the specs... if not that limits the potency of the engine... in the end though until FI for the M3 becomes available expect to be smokeable on the streets... cause that engine alone isn't cutting it. RS4 and RS8 put down 338 at the wheels. 335I with chip, $1200 puts down over 340rwhp... what does that mean to you?
 
#108 ·
There are many inaccuracies in your post to take your arguement seriously.

Different strokes for different folks. A lot of Americans don't like turbos due to the huge problems with turbos in the 70s. The turbo is aimed at teh fast and furious generation.

EU = European Union.
 
#109 ·
But if you want an M get an M. I'm not saying it's not going to be a great car... the others were great and i'm sure this will be better. BMW doesn't make bad cars... For the price I think its a good value too. Modding a 335I to the specs of an M3 would cost 20K. But that defeats the purpose. 3 series drivers don't want sports cars they want cars that are fun but comfortable and adaptive. The M series is a straight sports car with the expection of the M5 (it is a cruiser also). If I wanted a sports car I would consider the M3 instead of trying to change the character of a regular 3. Sports cars for the road is kind of crazy though... if your not going to be on the track often what's the point? On the streets all that matters is speed.
 
#111 ·
Lets hold judgement until we actually drive the car. The 335 twin turbo is nice, but how do we know the new M 3 V8 is not? And doesn't M engines are all suppose to be non-turbo? The E30 M3 was a 4 cylinder engine, does it mean that E36 and E46 are not real M3 because its a 6 ? Base on this arguement, BMW should just turbo charged the original 4 cylinder then....
 
#119 · (Edited)
You may not be aware of how serious these guys are. If they think they've left something out there, they're going to be back - until they feel that's about as well as they can do with the car.

As another example, Rohrl (who knows the 'Ring a bunch better than I know my NHIS "home" track - 1.7 miles long, where I've run probably 4000 happy miles), took forever to get that 911S down to a 7:59. He was quoted as saying how difficult it was to do an 8:01 in the car, so on that 7:59 lap, I'm pretty sure his blood pressure was high enough to get the boys interested down at the Princeton Plasma Physics Lab. :)

You can bet that the BMW guys weren't taking any prisoners, either. They might keep trying (the M6 number is 8:07.76, after all), but the number won't change a bunch unless they change the car.

The Corvette guys weren't screwing around, either. I've seen pictures of that Z06 coming down from altitude over one of the 'Ring's infamous crests, and it's clearly an OMIGOD! thing.

Check this out. Edit: Note the guardrail in the left-hand picture. Somebody surely went over there. Now figure how long they were out of control before they got there, and how fast they must've been going when they lost it way the hell back there down the hill at the corner exit. Scary place.

Yeah. Beating a Cayman S is an achievement, but hey, the Bimmer makes 40% more power with 20% more weight, so if it didn't, I'd be calling it a pig - in performance, not just weight.

Bruce
 
#117 · (Edited)
Weight bet

No, the M3 will be a good car, I am sure - but porky. I'll bet you $100 that my estimation of its weight at over 3600 pounds is closer than yours at 3483. Interested? Bruce
I'll take that bet. Based on published BMWUSA website "unladen" weight. 3541 or under I win. 3542 or more you win. Of course, if they screw the pooch as much as the German site did with the 335i weight, either one of us could get screwed!
 
#118 ·
I'll take that bet. Based on published BMWUSA website "unladen" weight. 3541 or under I win. 3542 or more you win. Of course, if they screw the pooch as much as the German site did with the 335i weight, either one of us could get screwed!
You're on!

This is one of those bets where I personally can't lose. If I lose the bet, that means the new M3 isn't as much of a porker as I've come to believe - and that's really good.

Greg, check your PM for my address, etc.

Thanks,

Bruce
 
#120 ·
Yeah, Walter is amazing. I've read interviews with him. He is definitely Porsche's not-so-secret weapon but each marque has its heroes. You have to have brass balls to go 10/10th's there.

I've seen those vette pics before and the interview with a driver who said he'd rather not take another lap. It was THAT scary.

What sort of lap times were people expecting of this new M3? It has never been about being fastest-for-the-money. Well, at least not in recent memory. I suppose I was expecting just under 8:00. A hair slower than, say, the C5 Z06.
 
#121 · (Edited)
I personally would have been amazed if it had gotten down to the 7:59s that those two icons did (Z51 Vette and 911S). Those two are Official Fast Cars.

Still, a little closer would've been better. :(

BMW knows how to go fast. The last generation CSL went 7:50, which isn't standing around.

By the way, have you read where Mercedes says the new CLK63 Black Series will do the 'Ring in 7:45? That's a fair bit behind the 7:39 of the 911 GT3, but almost on par with the Z06, and planets ahead of the M6.

Listen, if you're BMW, and Mercedes starts kicking your butt on track with off-the-showroom-floor cars, what's next?

Can't wait for that new Hyundai V8. :)

Edit: Just noticed that the RS4 has done the 'Ring in an 8:09. God help us. It's only a second, but now it's Audi kicking butt? Say it ain't so.

Bruce
 
#123 ·
Yes, I know I will start some flaming but hear me out.

What would have been outstanding would be if BMW M division created a '3' with the same power of the old M3 but weighing 200-400 pounds less. That is what I would call an improvement to the level M used to deliver. Less weight, more acceleration, better handling, cornering and breaking. We all know this...

But rather it created a porker. No doubt it will do well in america where people value raw horsepower over overall dynamics.
I agree, seems BMW is following the GM plan. Build big soft cars with cheap parts and live off past laurels. Don't believe me then check out the consumer reports quality data. My daughters 325 checked out on the freeway driving home from college. Dad had to retrieve her from a convience store because the ultimate driving machine had an alternator that could not last 45k miles.
 
#143 ·
There are lot of new 2008 car have more than 414 hp. The new M3 still not the most powerful car on the road. I agree the big engine war is not wise. Gasoline becomes more and more expensive nowaday and everybody still putting bigger and bigger engine inside the hood. why? it is not call technolgoy. Do everyone still remember those small block 1.6L japanese car ate those american big block in 70's. That is call technology. The theroy is use the smallest displacement to produce highest horsepower with less fuel consumption. This is called technology. The lotus elise can be called technology. Check those numbers it created and compare it to ford mustang GT. I strongly agree BMW's 335i (which depend a turbo to boost those extra pony not call technology, the new m3 use the bigger v8 to reach 400 ponies....not call technology) That's all I want to say.
 
#144 · (Edited)
Rants...

From the initial car reviews and official photos of the new V8 M3, I'm very disappointed in BMW turning a sports car icon into a GT. I'm sure others members are disappointed, as well. V8 M3 - despite being fast, its a freakin PIG - 3,600 lbs!!! :thumbdwn: If Porsche was the benchmark, BMW really missed the mark. :cry: :mad: :tsk: :bawling:

Those who have the E46 M3 have a classic and the last of the M's that hold true to the M series heritage????

However, there could be light at the end of the tunnel for BMW - its the 1 series. :)

The new 135i appears to be exactly what most BMW enthusiasts are looking for - small, agile, fast, fairly light, and a great engine that is easy to mod.
 
#145 ·
However, there could be light at the end of the tunnel for BMW - its the 1 series. :)

The new 135i appears to be exactly what most BMW enthusiasts are looking for - small, agile, fast, fairly light, and a great engine that is easy to mod.
True but the 1 series just doesn't have those design characteristics that make me drool when I look at. Every M3 up until now has been an amazing car to just look at, perfect proportions, etc. The 1 series looks like a luxury VW Golf to me. :dunno:
 
#151 ·
Edmunds review

Edmunds review of the M3:

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=121566/pageNumber=1#1

See?

I told ya, the car is too heavy. The engine is rated at 420HP but the torque is the same as the "regular" 335i. I'd say this is the most dissapointing review an M3 has ever received in its history.

The end result is exactly what I said: instead of reducing the weight, marketing forces have caused the escalation of HP. The result is as expected, a porker. Even with CF this and Al that the car weights the same as the 335i.

Grab the 335i, proceede, get rid of the runflats, and upgrade the suspension = the new M3 is toast.
 
#152 ·
The Car and Driver review said basically the same story:

It is a great car and yes I would love to have one. But is it worth the premium BMW is charging?

Like I said: 355i + proceede + upgraded suspension would get you very close if not better than the M3.

I have seen 0-60 times in the 4.1 sec range for proceeded 335i.
The new M3 seems to do it in 4.4 sec, perhaps a little more.

I also rather have the steptronic in the 335i than the slightly clunky (according to the reviewers) manual.

And lets not forget the fuel economy in the new V8 is abismal (~ 20 mpg in hiway I think?) and makes the 335i look like a VW Lupo.
 
#153 ·
0-60 numbers are always goofy with BMWs

All I know is they seem faster on the street than the competition.

I'll bet it's faster than the 335, and I can't wait until the real SMG comes out
 
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