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Latest info on 335...

156K views 2K replies 198 participants last post by  gohawks23 
#1 ·
Local dealer is taking $1000 deposits for 2007 model year slots. Price is not out yet of course but dealer will only sell for MSRP. Current 330 will cease production in August of 06.

I'm gonna check out the RS4 too seeing as the E90 M3 won't be here until the 2008 model year.
 
#1,052 ·
akhbhaat said:
I've already decided that I don't want the 335 unless it's priced to be somewhat competitive with the Asian alternatives...and the car isn't even being sold yet.
I think that you are being unresonable. How can the 335 be "priced to be somewhat competitive with the Asian alternatives" When the standard E90 is priced to be competitive with the Asian alternatives? What Asain alternatives are you talking about? Or are you suggesting that BMW offer the 335 at the same price as the 325/330i?
 
#1,053 · (Edited)
Spoonie G said:
I think that you are being unresonable. How can the 335 be "priced to be somewhat competitive with the Asian alternatives" When the standard E90 is priced to be competitive with the Asian alternatives? What Asain alternatives are you talking about? Or are you suggesting that BMW offer the 335 at the same price as the 325/330i?
no matter what engine you put in the 3er, in the end it will always be the "entry" level bmw and needs to be priced accordingly. the level and quality of the interior pieces and all else will be "entry" level luxury. so it has to be priced accordingly. so it still should be less than the e60's. as for asian alternatives, there's the is350 and g35. this sector's engine displacement is moving up and so bmw needs to move up with the sector. people new to the market will look at engine size as a reference to the level of car they are getting and looking at. if this was not the case, then BMW wouldn't be playing marketing engineering of the badges and name the cars based on the exact engine displacement.
 
#1,054 ·
HW said:
no matter what engine you put in the 3er, in the end it will always be the "entry" level bmw
The 3 is no longer the entry level BMW. The 3 compact used to be and now it´s the 1.

Soon in the US as well. So the 3 certainly can move upmarket in price as it allready has in space/size, sophistication and equipment level.
 
#1,055 ·
tierfreund said:
The 3 is no longer the entry level BMW. The 3 compact used to be and now it´s the 1.

Soon in the US as well. So the 3 certainly can move upmarket in price as it allready has in space/size, sophistication and equipment level.
oops forgot about the 1. but in any case, the 1 isn't competing w/ the is350, g35, a4, nor even the tl or tsx.
 
#1,056 · (Edited)
Spoonie G said:
I think that you are being unresonable. How can the 335 be "priced to be somewhat competitive with the Asian alternatives" When the standard E90 is priced to be competitive with the Asian alternatives? What Asain alternatives are you talking about? Or are you suggesting that BMW offer the 335 at the same price as the 325/330i?
In case no one's noticed, BMW is selling plenty of E90s...both 325s & 330s.
People are willing to pay more...and many load up their car with options.

People willing to pay more+more cars being sold=Demand is rising.
If demand rises in the Premium car market sector, the price will go up,
REGARDLESS of globalization, which is a common argument used to support
the fact that car prices are stabilizing or dropping.

The very fact that we are seeing this 335i moniker on a 2-Door Coupe, which
is a model that has always historically sold for more than its 4-door sibling, is
evidence enough that this car could easily start at $40K in base price.
 
#1,057 ·
RichReg said:
In case no one's noticed, BMW is selling plenty of E90s...both 325s & 330s.
People are willing to pay more...and many load up their car with options.

People willing to pay more+more cars being sold=Demand is rising.
If demand rises in the Premium car market sector, the price will go up,
REGARDLESS of globalization, which is a common argument used to support
the fact that car prices are stabilizing or dropping.
first model year sales are not a good indicator of success though - many cars have sold well initially then quickly plummeted. I don't think that's the fate of the E90, but it's too early to be certain.

Besides, the E90 hasn't gone up at much all in price compared to the E46, on a content basis. There's definitely a ceiling for the 3 series in price, and BMW will find that out if they try to sell a $50k 3 series.

People may not have noticed, but BMW resale is not what it used to be. I picked up a perfect 1 year old 330 for $12k off MSRP, you couldn't do that back in 2000 or 1997, I know, i tried.
 
#1,058 · (Edited)
Spoonie G said:
I think that you are being unresonable. How can the 335 be "priced to be somewhat competitive with the Asian alternatives" When the standard E90 is priced to be competitive with the Asian alternatives? What Asain alternatives are you talking about? Or are you suggesting that BMW offer the 335 at the same price as the 325/330i?
I'm suggesting that BMW bring 335i pricing in line with IS350 pricing. That is, starting in the high 30's and going up from there. That's an objective assessment on my part, there's no personal motivation there - there's a 75% chance that I buy the cheaper model anyway (since I'm only really looking for a fun but relatively stripped commuter car), regardless of what BMW does with the 335i. I can certainly afford the car if they price it all the way up into the 40s, but I won't want to.

Personally (and ALL of the following is based entirely upon my own subjective perceptions of value), I think that the 325i is a decent buy and well placed in terms of price, performance and equipment value against its most important competitors (A4, IS250, C230/C280, TSX). Note that all of these cars are almost as expensive or more expensive than the 325i when equipped to the same level (for example, the A4's base price is deceptively low; to even get something as simple as HID you need to buy thousands worth in options packages).

I think it makes more sense (as far as the US market is concerned) to continue selling the 325i as is, with perhaps a slight name change or small boost in power, replace the 330i with the 335i, sell the M3 to start at around 55k, and then sell a limited production 335si ZHP-like model in the 40k-50k range to form as the niche model "bridge." This leaves the strong-selling 325i where it is and as it is (which can always be changed later if necessary) and makes the more expensive model more competitive in terms of value and performance with cars like the G35, the C350 (both of which are going to be updated soon) and the IS350. Let me put it this way: if BMW wants to retain the "sport sedan" crown in terms of both sales and prestige in the US market, then they have to do it by providing an undeniably superior product at a competitive price. Sure, a $47k 335i might be a superior product, but at $47k, not very many are going to buy it.

After all, this is basically what BMW did with the E46 during the progression of the line (albeit over several years), by replacing the 328 with the 330, leaving the 323 mostly intact and rebadging it with a very small power increase, and then later introducing the ZHP package for the 330 to bridge the gap between the 330 and the increasingly expensive M3 (as well as offer a true performance option for four door buyers).

As far as the 1 series is concerned, I don't know if there's any room for it here unless BMW moves the entire 3er line upmarket, presumably just by dropping the 325i. Oh, and BMW will need a sedan version for the US market, because upscale hatches just don't sell that well here and a coupe isn't versatile enough to appeal to the mass market.
 
#1,059 ·
RichReg said:
In case no one's noticed, BMW is selling plenty of E90s...both 325s & 330s.
People are willing to pay more...and many load up their car with options.

People willing to pay more+more cars being sold=Demand is rising.
If demand rises in the Premium car market sector, the price will go up,
REGARDLESS of globalization, which is a common argument used to support
the fact that car prices are stabilizing or dropping.
Actually, once inflation is accounted for, we aren't really paying any more right now than we were 10 years ago. Perhaps less, even. My 323i, purchased new in early 2000, would cost around $34,000 today and is only as well equipped as a stripped $31,000 version of today's 325i (well, I do have HID and 17" wheels, but that's about it).

There's been a slow decline in 330 sales since summer (particularly in ratio with 325 sales, which have been steady), and there was a very sharp drop-off for January (we won't know whether this is an anomaly or not until February figures are available). No doubt the summer numbers can be attributed to early buyers and first-year excitement. There wasn't an IS350 to go up against, either.

I don't know if there's support for the idea that relative demand in the entry lux car market has increased appreciably, at least within the last half decade. Even if it has, the market has expanded to accommodate that demand. Demand has increased, but so has supply, AND competition.

The very fact that we are seeing this 335i moniker on a 2-Door Coupe, which
is a model that has always historically sold for more than its 4-door sibling, is
evidence enough that this car could easily start at $40K in base price.
I can imagine the coupe - which is branded as a more exclusive model and carries a particular demand - COULD come out around 40k. But the sedan? I can't see any more than 38k if BMW actually wants to sell it.
 
#1,061 · (Edited)
tierfreund said:
The 3 is no longer the entry level BMW. The 3 compact used to be and now it***180;s the 1.

Soon in the US as well. So the 3 certainly can move upmarket in price as it allready has in space/size, sophistication and equipment level.
I still haven't seen any hard evidence about a 1 series introduction in the US. There's been a lot of waffling in the public comments made by the higher ups at BMWNA. On top of that, I still haven't seen any evidence of a sedan version, which would need to be the centerpiece of a US market intro. If anybody has any, I wouldn't mind taking a look at it. :)

The four door hatch wouldn't sell well enough to justify importing it in lieu of a sedan (US buyers are just turned off by the look of traditional hatchbacks, because they're associated with wagons which underwent a serious image drain some decades ago), and a coupe/cabrio combo sans four door wouldn't be versatile enough to allow BMW to move the entire 3er line up-market.
 
#1,062 ·
akhbhaat said:
I still haven't seen any hard evidence about a 1 series introduction in the US. There's been a lot of waffling in the public comments made by the higher ups at BMWNA. On top of that, I still haven't seen any evidence of a sedan version, which would need to be the centerpiece of a US market intro. The hatch wouldn't sell well enough to justify importing it, and a coupe/cabrio combo sans four door wouldn't be versatile enough to allow BMW to move the entire 3er line up-market.
maybe they're doing a wait'n'see on how the A3 and the MB B-Class is affecting the other luxo marques in NA before bringing in a lower model. :dunno:
 
#1,063 ·
akhbhaat said:
I think BMWNA knows that their direct IS350 competitor has to be priced to compete, or it just won't sell well...look at me, for instance.
I'm afraid you are not *the* "market". IS, a brand new model, did not make a dent on the 3 series sales so far despite the price disparity. Not a bit.

Nontheless, there is no doubt bmw will sell less than now if they raise the price, particularly on the 325i replacement. (Too many people underestimate the price-elasticity in this industry). If they do, I suspect they will bring back 323i soon, regardless of the 1 series entry.
 
#1,064 · (Edited)
tksung said:
I'm afraid you are not *the* "market". IS, a brand new model, did not make a dent on the 3 series sales so far despite the price disparity. Not a bit.
Of course. But I am a prototypical example of a certain type of buyer.

Note that my short-lived attempts to buy an IS350 were discouraging, particularly because I was not all that interested in the car to begin with. So I've migrated back to BMW - which means I'll probably be buying one of the two E90 cars. I'm more likely to buy the cheaper one (which is almost always the one I perceive as being a better "value" based on a series of subjective judgments) - but I could be enticed to buy the more profitable model under the right conditions (i.e. an undeniably better price/performance ratio). I'm sure that there are quite a few buyers who carry this same mindset.

Nontheless, there is no doubt bmw will sell less than now if they raise the price, particularly on the 325i replacement. (Too many people underestimate the price-elasticity in this industry). If they do, I suspect they will bring back 323i soon, regardless of the 1 series entry.
Agreed.
 
#1,066 ·
akhbhaat said:
I can imagine the coupe - which is branded as a more exclusive model and carries a particular demand - COULD come out around 40k. But the sedan? I can't see any more than 38k if BMW actually wants to sell it.
Agreed. But the fact that BMW has dropped the Ci designation has me wondering if there is indeed a sedan coming.....or at least if its coming at the same time as this Coupe(which obviously seems ready to go).
 
#1,067 ·
greginaz1 said:
Are turbos inherently less fuel efficient than NA engines?
No. VW's SuperTurbo system that features a turbo and supercharger is something like 20% more efficient than the basic 1.4 liter, plus it has over 200 hp and about 200 ft-lbs of torque. That's the future for gas engines whether the NA people want to admit it or not. Reusing emissions and existing gases for more power makes sense. a 40-50% bump in power and torque and a 15-20% jump in efficiency is hard to sneeze at. Imagine a 3.0 with 380 hp and 360 ft-lbs of torque but it also gets 36 mpg on the freeway...remember BMW's v10 only has 370 or so ft-lbs of torque in the stratosphere and it comes with a gaz guzzler tax
 
#1,068 ·
RichReg said:
Agreed. But the fact that BMW has dropped the Ci designation has me wondering if there is indeed a sedan coming.....or at least if its coming at the same time as this Coupe(which obviously seems ready to go).
My dealer 'source' indicated the badging in June would be 328Ci and 335Ci for the coupes...for what that is worth...
 
#1,070 ·
blueguydotcom said:
No. VW's SuperTurbo system that features a turbo and supercharger is something like 20% more efficient than the basic 1.4 liter, plus it has over 200 hp and about 200 ft-lbs of torque. That's the future for gas engines whether the NA people want to admit it or not. Reusing emissions and existing gases for more power makes sense. a 40-50% bump in power and torque and a 15-20% jump in efficiency is hard to sneeze at. Imagine a 3.0 with 380 hp and 360 ft-lbs of torque but it also gets 36 mpg on the freeway...remember BMW's v10 only has 370 or so ft-lbs of torque in the stratosphere and it comes with a gaz guzzler tax
Thanks, very interesting...I have to say I'm coming around to this twin turbo deal with no lag, more power and higher efficiency!:thumbup: I hope it really works that way...:eeps:
 
#1,071 ·
greginaz1 said:
My dealer 'source' indicated the badging in June would be 328Ci and 335Ci for the coupes...for what that is worth...
:nono:

No more "C" for the coupe. Only "i" from now on. Or "d", "si", "sd", "xi" & "xd". ;)

I have to say I'm coming around to this twin turbo deal with no lag, more power and higher efficiency!
"Performance without penalty." :thumbup:
 
#1,072 ·
Is there any consideration here for the fact that the BMW Mini is the "entry level" BMW, at least in the US? Intelligent buyers, which I presume represents some goodly proportion of the BMW buying public, with research, would find that the Mini is a BMW Group brand and comes with the performance and practicality which it delivers.

BMW Mini is selling all and more than they can make, beyond any of their forecasts.

I heard the now current BMW M brand manager indicate that the 1 series is not coming to the US when he spoke to the BMW CCA dinner at the Monterey historics. However, market conditions, competition, and demand can change all of that on a dime for a relatively smaller lithe company.

Regards,
Marc
95M3
04 996 40th
 
#1,073 ·
a "BMW" w/o a Bavarian Motor motor ain't a BMW :p :neener: :angel:

95M3CSL said:
Is there any consideration here for the fact that the BMW Mini is the "entry level" BMW, at least in the US? Intelligent buyers, which I presume represents some goodly proportion of the BMW buying public, with research, would find that the Mini is a BMW Group brand and comes with the performance and practicality which it delivers.

BMW Mini is selling all and more than they can make, beyond any of their forecasts.

I heard the now current BMW M brand manager indicate that the 1 series is not coming to the US when he spoke to the BMW CCA dinner at the Monterey historics. However, market conditions, competition, and demand can change all of that on a dime for a relatively smaller lithe company.

Regards,
Marc
95M3
04 996 40th
 
#1,075 ·
95M3CSL said:
Is there any consideration here for the fact that the BMW Mini is the "entry level" BMW, at least in the US?
Possibly - that the MINI is owned by BMW is firmly in the mind of British drivers, not least because all the outlets are cheek-by-jowl with a BMW dealer, and the facilities are often shared.

It sounds like there is massive price pressure on the 335i, or 335si, or whatever BMW intends to call this mysterious top-end 3er. If it becomes the "entry-level BMW" in the US, then any attempt to compete on price will be futile. A car like this is likely to cost a good €45k in Germany, and sit right in the middle of BMW's food chain. For the car to cost less than $40k in the States, BMW would have to prohibit options and much of the existing colour/trim range.

As I surmised before, BMW would do well to build the 3er in the US and fit a US-specific drivetrain. Apart from a little surplus-skimming, it has no real need of a 335i in Europe, as there are no competitors (not even on price). Unless you count the 350Z, which is a more of a boutique two-seater sold in tiny numbers.
 
#1,076 ·
andy_thomas said:
As I surmised before, BMW would do well to build the 3er in the US and fit a US-specific drivetrain. Apart from a little surplus-skimming, it has no real need of a 335i in Europe, as there are no competitors (not even on price). Unless you count the 350Z, which is a more of a boutique two-seater sold in tiny numbers.
I agree entirely. The 335i is clearly best suited for the US market...quite frankly, I can't see what they're going to do with it in Europe. The majority of European buyers are opting for diesels and smaller petrols as is...I can imagine that the 330i is an exceedingly rare sight, and an expensive 335i would be even more so. As I understand it, everybody on that side of the lake is eagerly waiting for the 335d while we babble on about the 335i. :)
 
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