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Throttle Hesitation - DRIVING US NUTS!!!

36K views 102 replies 33 participants last post by  Vicsonryan 
#1 ·
OK, we have had our X1 a few months, and it's really a second car, but in the few (1500) miles we have driven it we have been repeatedly honked at and been in a couple of close calls because of the stupid throttle hesitation. There is always about a 1 sec lag between pushing down on the pedal and the engine kicking in. It doesn't matter if you push down harder on the throttle, because then when it does kick in it is just more throttle.

My suspicion is that this delay has something to do with the Auto Start Stop (code named ASS for a reason), which we had the dealer default to off, so we don't have to deal with it. I have a feeling that by this time next year, the ASS function will be no more.

So are other people having the same problem? Or do we need to take the car back to the dealer to be inspected?

Seriously, a full second between pressing on the pedal and having the car respond!
 
#57 ·
I disagree completely - the new Explorer is front wheel drive, something I do not want, is way too wide, too long, weighs way too much, and can not even carry some of the things my 2006 Explorer easily carries, as they built big boxes on both sides of the cargo compartment. I tried the seats in a top of the line fully loaded Explorer Sport, and they were so bad that I did not even bother to drive it. Yuck!

The main problem with the X1 for me is that it may be too small, and this hesitation thing sounds like a multiple times per day nuisance. I do like that it can be had without navigation. The X1 would be easier to park, a significant issue for much of the work I do. The X3 coats way more, and has almost no practical increase in cargo capacity.

I'm tempted by the new longer version of the Hyundai Santa Fe which goes on sale in a few weeks, as I like the interior, the second row captain's chairs (even better than 40-20-40), and it is about the same size as my Explorer, but I really do not want front wheel drive, or front-based AWD. I've had enough front drivers (1984 Pontiac Sunbird Turbo, 1988 Pontiac Bonneville SSE, 2005 Chevrolet Malibu Maxx) that I know it is an inferior design.

I can afford (pay cash) for just about any vehicle, but am focused on investing in nice newer single family houses in nice neighborhoods where rents are good, not spending big on depreciating vehicles.
 
#59 ·
Santa Fe will also be a full second slower to 60mph than the X1 28i (if not more). As the previous poster said... Can't be compared.

Back on topic: despite its annoyance I would still purchase the X1, knowing a fix will be out at some point (as per other BMW models that have been thru this). If you notice it, make sure your dealership registers a complaint with BMW NA/CANADA.
 
#62 ·
I agree with Ramsey most of the time. I achieved financial independence until I met my wife who has over $200k of student loan debt. She is finishing her medical residency so the investment will eventually pay off. I have a rental property with a mortgage but positive cash flow. I will add another but just can't pay cash like you.

Not everyone can buy property with cash and it just isn't fair for you to say things like, if you can't pay cash you can't afford the car. While our economy is down, we do have the advantage of outstanding interest rates right now.

I'm picking up my X1 in a few hours and I will be able to give a fair review of the lag compared to the E82, E90, F30, and many of the rental cars I've driven.

You and I should have coffee sometime (although Ramsey hates coffee shops!). ;)
 
#65 ·
I've had my x28i M Sport since yesterday. I'm not sure folks are going to like my report. The X1 does not have tip-in issue reported on the 2011 5-series, IMO.

The throttle action is no different than our 2009 128i, 2009 335i (sold), or my parent's 2012 328i (drove it today). This is just how BMWs are these days.

I've been driving BMW's since the late 90's (E36, E39, E46). There was a difference in the way the throttle responded to the pedal inputs between those older 3 series and the E39 5 series (by my recollection). The 3s were more responsive and sporty than the 540i which had more power but throttle responsiveness was smoother and less sporty.

When someone ran a red light and totaled my E46 I purchased the 2009 LCI E90 335i (my first BMW drive by wire). The throttle response reminded me of the old E39 5 series, tuned a bit more to feel luxurious than sporty. I felt like the E90 was an amalgamation of the E46 and E39. When my wife's 2007 Honda Accord was totaled, she got the 2009 128i coupe.

In BMW D/Drive there is some minor throttle delay (I estimate no more than 1/4 sec) but no more than in the Accord or in many other rental cars I've driven (most recently a 2012 Maxima). Again, this slight delay makes normal driving (cruising) more luxurious/smoother. In DS/Sport the throttle response improves greatly and is quite sporting.

I have a 2001 Honda S2000 with Greddy Turbo (very little lag) that I has been my daily driver for the last 8 weeks. This vehicle is the furthest thing from drive by wire you can find these days.

I am convinced the perceived X1 throttle delay is due to the 8AT transmission tuning. In D/Drive, the transmission is in such a high gear and must downshift when you depress the throttle. Taking off from a light, the car idles and takes off in 2nd by default. Feathering the gas takes off smoothly. Mashing the gas in D/Drive has a delay because it has to downshift and rev match. In DS/Sport, you can take off from a light with no issues. Same things happen during normal driving. The transmission in D/Drive cruises in such a high gear that it must downshift when you mash the throttle, causing additional delay.

When you are in DS/Sport, the transmission is already in an appropriate gear and often doesn't need to downshift when you give it some gas. We don't even need to discuss ECO PRO. Don't use it unless you are cruising on the freeway, it completely mutes responsiveness.

So far, I am very happy with my decision to trade the 335i for the x28i. The 8AT transmission is awesome so far. I was able to use the paddles to click from 8 directly into 4th...impossible to do with the 6AT.

Sorry for the long post. I hope it was all coherent.
 
#75 ·
I'm at 1200+ miles now. I have also been driving my parent's 2012 F30 328i extensively the last couple of weeks.

I've done some tests of throttle response and while ECO PRO is noticeably less responsive, there is no real measurable difference between D/Drive and DS/Drive Sport. The difference is in responsiveness and programming of the transmission. If you engage DS or Manual mode while in ECO PRO you will still have the [poor] ECO PRO throttle mapping. I still believe the delay folks are experiencing is transmission delay (unless my vehicle is different in some way). It seems that in D/Drive the transmission waits at times (asking, "are you sure") before kicking down into the proper gear. No such issue with DS or full Manual mode.

Our X1 throttle response is equivalent to the F30 328i in COMFORT mode as well as our 128i and E90 335i. It is not as responsive as the F30 Sport/Sport+ modes (even in X1 DS mode). The F30 feels more powerful/sporty over all simply because it is lighter and you feel more of the road with the lower suspension. The X1 is much more comfortable to drive on the highway but nowhere near as sporty on the curves. The F30 is a true sports sedan and much closer in performance to my E90 N54 335i than the X1 28i is. I'm hoping the BMS N20 Stage 1 tune will give me some headroom and power closer to the F30 328i.

The 28i really needs to be in the right gear to get the most out of the engine. When you need responsiveness, I recommend you always switch to DS or Manual mode. Only use ECO PRO for highway driving and D/Drive for relaxed driving around town.
 
#77 ·
I am planing on buying an x1 for my wife so I dropped by to read about current owners experiences. I can comment on is this topic because it was discussed to death in the e90 threads. One thing a can tell you is the car adapts to how you drive it and that's why the reset proceedure discussed here works. I have never experienced any lag due to the fact that I don't baby my car. If you drive it like you stole it the car learns your habits and will not lag. I am not talking about turbo lag which is different. Try not worrying about gas mileage for a full tank and get on it and I think you will see a vast difference. Remember these cars are driven at high speeds on the autobahn and the engines are made to run.
 
#78 ·
OK, we have had our X1 a few months, and it's really a second car, but in the few (1500) miles we have driven it we have been repeatedly honked at and been in a couple of close calls because of the stupid throttle hesitation. There is always about a 1 sec lag between pushing down on the pedal and the engine kicking in. It doesn't matter if you push down harder on the throttle, because then when it does kick in it is just more throttle.

My suspicion is that this delay has something to do with the Auto Start Stop (code named ASS for a reason), which we had the dealer default to off, so we don't have to deal with it. I have a feeling that by this time next year, the ASS function will be no more.

So are other people having the same problem? Or do we need to take the car back to the dealer to be inspected?

Seriously, a full second between pressing on the pedal and having the car respond!
I didnt realize that the dealer would do this for you...
 
#79 ·
My dealer just did this for me a few days ago, when I had my X1 in for a bunch of other issues. They didn't charge me anything either. At first they didn't know how to do it, but I guess they figured it out.

Here's what the invoice states:
"Submitted Puma Case for activation code. Performed complete vehicle programming including CAS for conversion to enable MSA2 memory function"

Whatever that means. But the end result is that "ASS" defaults to whatever setting it was last in. So, if I shut the car off with ASS enabled, then it will be enabled when I next start the car. Likewise, if I shut the car off with ASS disabled, so will it be when I restart the car. This is specific to the key fob used, so if you like ASS and your significant other doesn't, you can each have it your way! :D
 
#85 ·
I too have been contemplating purchasing the X1, so I have been lurking on here for about a month now. I thought I would chime in on this issue. I read a post earlier in this thread where the person says this issue is the drive by wire throttle causing this. I have yet to drive the X1, so my opinion is worth spit, but based on the description of the problem, I tend to agree that is caused the drive by wire throttle. I have a 2006 Toyota RAV4 that was the first vehicle I purchased that had this feature. It did and does the same thing. Always has and it took me a long time to get use to it. It is very unnerving when you are making a turn in at a 4 way light and the delay causes you to hang out in the intersection longer than what you are comfortable with. I have over time learned the right about of pressure to use when pressing the throttle to get the quickest response. I totally understand the frustration of having to deal with it in a BMW. Folks buy BMWs for the thrill of driving them and their handling characteristics. This issue would definitely detract from that. If there are aftermarket tune kits that fix or improve this issue I would be buying it for a BMW.:dunno:
 
#86 ·
... this issue is the drive by wire throttle causing this....
That isn't a complete assesment of the cause. BMW has had DBW throttles since 2001 and before. The "problem" if you want to call it a problem, is that the newer transmission programming that starts out in 2nd gear to gain fuel-efficiency (especially in the urban cycle). The 2nd gear start combined with turbo engine lag that gives you this behavior (although many people complained about the previous N52 I6 and it's auto transmission, too.)

Mike Miller (BMWCCA tech writer), in the last Roundel (p.99) wrote a lengthy explanation of the whys and wherefores. Basically, he said that in the balance of economy vs. performance, that's the way it is, other brands are just as bad, and unless you opt (in this case you can't) for a manual, you're stuck with the behavior.
 
#87 ·
I have posted this elsewhere, but just for a data point and because this issue concerned me very much; in about 550 miles of driving my new 2014 x28i MSport, I have not experienced significant throttle lag so far (if anything, probably a little better than average for any late-model cars I've driven), and I've really been looking for it.

Starting out in 2nd, yes. Forcing it to start in first or going to DS pretty much eliminates that problem.

I really don't think that drive by wire, per se, is the issue. For example, my manual pre-LCI E90 (NA 6 cylinder) did not exhibit noticeable throttle lag, nor does my NA Miata 6MT (of course with a manual you can sort of compensate by how you manipulate the clutch and accelerator together, but if throttle lag were bad with a shift stick, it would be really annoying). I would say perceived throttle lag in these cars is a combo of deliberate transmission and throttle response programming and turbo lag. Turbo lag aside, I would bet that if absence of throttle lag were the driving priority, the cars could be programmed that way and the choice has been made to compromise.

(Not to say that I think the X1 has bad turbo lag, but there is some off idle, like any turbo I've ever driven, and that adds to the perception of lack of throttle control off idle.)
 
#91 ·
MOST RECENT FROM THE F10/F11 TIP IN THREAD:


"Thanks to ShawnSheridan! Wanted to log-in and acknowledge the priceless value of the info posted here regarding the throttle tip-in problem. Short version:

Get the software update referenced in Shawn's posted SIB 12 17 12 (or better). This update saves the 2011 528i F10 N52. My throttle tip-in problem was resolved after the software update.

Forget the throttle adaptive programming via the start button - that is not a fix. Been there, done that.

Thanks Shawn, and all the others who took this issue to ground. You serve the BMW community, and the manufacturer. Congrats also to BMW for addressing the issue with software updates and improvements.

I'm a new guy to the forum, but this is my 4th BMW. Recently purchased a 2011 528i because I wanted to stay clear of turbo lag. Imagine my shock when I found the throttle tip-in problem - it is far worse than turbo lag. I was ready to immediately sell the car and go looking for a new marque. Which is beyond sad.

BMW is working this throttle tip-in nonsense, and as other posters have noted it is definitely a safety issue. Do not accept the tip-in lag. Without the programming updates this car is a hazard to drive: poor accelerator pedal response , lurching launch, and irregular application of throttle at speed. All detailed within this forum. The problem is most definitely a software-related problem. That is a great engine under your hood. Get it fixed by BMW and recover the car you paid for, one that better represents the tradition! "
 
#92 ·
This is quite the long thread and I had to go back and read some of the earlier posts.
But I'm surprised there hasn't been much talk about DSC.
Do people still experience the same hesitation with DSC Off? or with DTC on?
 
#93 · (Edited)
stoneX1 said:
This is quite the long thread and I had to go back and read some of the earlier posts.
But I'm surprised there hasn't been much talk about DSC.
Do people still experience the same hesitation with DSC Off? or with DTC on?.
I really don't think it's directly related to DSC. The odd thing is that some people with the same vehicle see it and some don't. I can testify it's not idiosyncratic to the driver, but rather the specific vehicle. My 2012 X3 35i (with the first software update; I'm not clear if there's a second one) definitely has it. My 2014 X1 28i, so far, does not. Different engines, same transmission. There have been complaints about both engines, and apparently both the 8 and 6-speed transmissions, also.

I think I know what you're getting at (DSC butting in and cutting power) but that is not what it feels like. In the case of my X3 it's more about inconsistent throttle response, occurring most frequently from a full or rolling stop. Basically my experience is the car does not respond to throttle input the way you expect it to, you apply additional throttle, still nothing, then a little more and it then shifts down/takes off. Makes you feel like you don't know how to drive. Apparently in some other people's cases it's worse; I personally have not experienced it to such an extreme that it's seemed dangerous, but I can imagine some drivers might combine it with turbo lag and/or delayed shift down and when they want to take off to pass or get out of someone's way........nothing.
 
#94 ·
I don't know how many times it has to be said... This is unrelated to DTC/DSC, Turbo-lag etc etc.

I have an appt with my SA next week and we'll see if the SIB above applies to our ride and if they even know what it is. Past experience leaves the dealerships pleading the 5th on any knowledge about this issue. Last time (Jan 2013) there was no bulletin, recall, or even awareness of the issue.
 
#95 ·
Ok so the dealer replaced the accelerator sensor on my X1, reset the adaptive drive and has no idea where the software fix noted above in the forum comes from for this model in Australia at least. He showed me the software numbers, SIBs and ISTAs and this was nowhere to be found on the sheet. Anyway, the replacement sensor has done the trick and it's like driving a whole new car, smooth take off with no hesitation whatsoever and a great gear change on the roll... very noticeable change indeed. I also complained about a loud 'cracking' sound which seems to come from the dash area but sounds like glass expanding, and occurs in hot weather a few minutes after I get into the car and the air con kicks in and cools down the cabin, the service guy at my local BMW dealer, who takes the service X1 out said he noticed the same thing. We are waiting on a BMW fix for it as it appears that a few people have complained.
 
#96 ·
Sib 12 17 12

SIB 12 17 12 refers to the following models and addresses "unfavorable EGS and DME software":

N52T / N55 with 8HP45: Delay in Engine Response

MODELS
F10 and F25 with the N52T engine and 8HP45 transmission to 3/31/2012
E70, E71 and F25 with the N55 engine and 8HP45 transmission to 3/31/2012
F07, F10 with the N55 engine and 8HP45 transmission to 2/29/2012

Bottom line: This is a software programming issue. Previous models with DBW did not all have the throttle response tip in problem.
 
#97 ·
I find it annoying that automakers (not just BMW) in general are playing with the throttle calibration for the sake of creating good emissions and fuel consumption figures for European and US gov't testing.

Back in the olden days, electronic throttle wasn't a problem. The E46 3er, earlier X3s, and BMWs of the early 2000s didn't have this claptrap. Then someone decided to start screwing it all up......
 
#98 ·
The F series vehicles have the best implementation with the rocker switch and ECO, Comfort, and Sport modes (I only have real world experience with the F30s). I don't find the throttle response a problem in our X1, but it is only equivalent to Comfort in the F30. DS mode improves transmission response but not throttle for me.

We have a newborn so I am driving in ECO PRO a lot now to smooth everything out. I have BMS Stage 1 tune so ECO is usable now.
 
#99 ·
It is good to read that this problem has been addressed. The EPA test cycles are a very specific sequence. It seems that any good programmer should be able to write code to have the car recognize it is in the test cycle and change to make the best numbers just for that test cycle. That would not be deceptive, as the EPA test cycles have zilch to do with the real world, as with most bureaucratic dreams.
 
#101 · (Edited)
Hey, I just got a Sprint Booster for my X1 28i (they use the x3 version and it works great).

Press the button and it takes about 30% of the perceived throttle lag off the line. Press it again and its reduced by about 50%.

I use the first stage, (the second feels a little jumpy).

It gives the x1 an overall spirited and lively feel. You know, the way you'd expect it to DRIVE FROM THE FACTORY.

MO

PS I've had it for about 2 weeks-- no change to MPG yet. You can see my full review on bimmerpost under the same name -- popopine.
 
#102 ·
I bought a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee (Overland, V8, 4x4, technology) a few weeks ago, and it has the ZF 8-speed. It has eco mode, normal mode, and sport mode. It is nice in all three, but sport is just wonderful, as if the vehicle was on-edge. The basic transmission is clearly not the problem, just the programming.
 
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