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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #426  
Old 04-23-2014, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bmw325 View Post

The last car to truly upset the German apple cart was the first gen LS and it did so by offering a vastly better sevice experience and reliability. None of the current crop of challengers is enough of a game changer (other than tesla). Offering more for a better price is never enough in this segment.
I think I agree with this statement 100%. Year after year we hear about a german sedan "killer," but they NEVER pan out.

Cadilac being the prime example now. ATS sales are slumping. They're paying people $100 to test drive their cars.

The only non-German brand that really interests me is Tesla
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  #427  
Old 04-23-2014, 06:20 PM
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I think I agree with this statement 100%. Year after year we hear about a german sedan "killer," but they NEVER pan out.



Cadilac being the prime example now. ATS sales are slumping. They're paying people $100 to test drive their cars.



The only non-German brand that really interests me is Tesla

Yep. You can't just build a better or cheaper 3 or 5 series. You have to stake out new territory. Seems like Cadillac, Lexus,Infiniti, Acura and soon Hyundai learn this painful lesson over and over. Personally, the only non bmws (under 100k) I'm interested in are Porsches and teslas.
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  #428  
Old 04-23-2014, 06:21 PM
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I think I agree with this statement 100%. Year after year we hear about a german sedan "killer," but they NEVER pan out.

Cadilac being the prime example now. ATS sales are slumping. They're paying people $100 to test drive their cars.

The only non-German brand that really interests me is Tesla
My family had a history of having a few Caddy's when I was a kid, and I always "had a thing" for them. I wanted to like the ATS when it came out. A friend of mine at work has one, the 2.0 turbo model. At first, it was interesting. The more I've ridden in it, the more I know I wouldn't be happy with it. Most of the issues are with the interior. The CUE system is awful, as are most touch-screen systems, IMO. Beyond that, the control stack, which looks modern and "cool" at first, is full of confusing control surfaces. You're never sure exactly where the actual "button" is, behind the black panel. The markings are not where you push, and when you do, it's hard to activate the control. Looking closely at the interior materials, they're pretty cheap in look and feel. Saying this though, I guess compared to a 3-series, it's a toss-up. Anyway, it's a decent package overall, but the details need work.
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  #429  
Old 04-23-2014, 06:23 PM
bmw325 bmw325 is offline
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My family had a history of having a few Caddy's when I was a kid, and I always "had a thing" for them. I wanted to like the ATS when it came out. A friend of mine at work has one, the 2.0 turbo model. At first, it was interesting. The more I've ridden in it, the more I know I wouldn't be happy with it. Most of the issues are with the interior. The CUE system is awful, as are most touch-screen systems, IMO. Beyond that, the control stack, which looks modern and "cool" at first, is full of confusing control surfaces. You're never sure exactly where the actual "button" is, behind the black panel. The markings are not where you push, and when you do, it's hard to activate the control. Looking closely at the interior materials, they're pretty cheap in look and feel. Saying this though, I guess compared to a 3-series, it's a toss-up. Anyway, it's a decent package overall, but the details need work.

Even if everything were better than the 3 series it still woukdnt be enough. They'd have to do that for 2 generations and really build a reputation. And seriously overhaul their dealer network. Until then they'll have to be happy getting some favorable reviews and offering lots of incentives.
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  #430  
Old 04-23-2014, 06:27 PM
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My family had a history of having a few Caddy's when I was a kid, and I always "had a thing" for them. I wanted to like the ATS when it came out. A friend of mine at work has one, the 2.0 turbo model. At first, it was interesting. The more I've ridden in it, the more I know I wouldn't be happy with it. Most of the issues are with the interior. The CUE system is awful, as are most touch-screen systems, IMO. Beyond that, the control stack, which looks modern and "cool" at first, is full of confusing control surfaces. You're never sure exactly where the actual "button" is, behind the black panel. The markings are not where you push, and when you do, it's hard to activate the control. Looking closely at the interior materials, they're pretty cheap in look and feel. Saying this though, I guess compared to a 3-series, it's a toss-up. Anyway, it's a decent package overall, but the details need work.
Yup, I feel like once you get over the original honeymoon period, it's not all that great. The press LOVES the ATS because it's the first good handling American sports sedan in a long time. The interior is horribly overrated. All glitz. I feel like Cadillac and Hyundai/Kia are good at filling up spec sheets, but ultimately, they fall short. The F30/A4/IS/C Class are better overall cars.

If BMW/Audi/Lexus/MB put that touch-screen crap in their cars, they would have been crucified.

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  #431  
Old 04-23-2014, 06:36 PM
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Yup, I feel like once you get over the original honeymoon period, it's not all that great. The press LOVES the ATS because it's the first good handling American sports sedan in a long time. The interior is horribly overrated. All glitz. I feel like Cadillac and Hyundai/Kia are good at filling up spec sheets, but ultimately, they fall short. The F30/A4/IS/C Class are better overall cars.

If BMW/Audi/Lexus/MB put that touch-screen crap in their cars, they would have been crucified.

Even in the 5 series class, I feel the same way. Others do better at filling spec sheets but bmw ultimately gets more details right. Yes even in the stripper, base, pleather lined 528. Those here who disagree still went ahead and spent even more money on higher spec 5s to avoid the "value buys" in the segment. For most people , if all you care about are features and horsepower you'll spend even less and get something from a mainstream brand.
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  #432  
Old 04-23-2014, 06:37 PM
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Give it about 5 years and I feel that you'll look at an F10, and a Genesis (which is a 4 year newer body style) and the F10 will look even more superior to the Genesis as it will/might today. That's what you pay for with German cars, historically.

The "BMW Killer" always makes headlines. We've had Caddy, Infiniti, Acura, even Mercedes, Hyundai, Lexus, etc. all get those headlines, make lots of buzz and get comment sections riled up. However, somehow, BMW seems to always stand taller at the end, especially when you look back at the cars and how they've lasted the test of time, in retrospect, even with their higher prices, lower fluffy option content per-dollar, etc.

I dunno, maybe it's badge-whores keeping them afloat. Or maybe the company has earned the fact that people will revere their badge so greatly, that they'll throw their money at it. Or maybe they're just the best at what they do?
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  #433  
Old 04-23-2014, 07:17 PM
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@jjsC6

How does Hyundai resale value compares to Lexus?

You seem to always have strong arguments to make for both of those car manufacturing companies, like to hear ur take on that front ...


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I have had very good resale value on a 2010 GS I had, and in general Lexus have been known to have very good resale value.

Just to be clear, my post regarding the resale of the Genesis is that if you can buy a car that is $20,000 cheaper but will do most of what the more expensive car does, you will lose less dollars even though the resale value (which is expressed as a percentage of list price) is worse. Which would you rather lose, a percentage, or real dollars.

BTW, I realize this is all in response to the post where a guy stated that the Genesis has poor resale. What someone elects to spend for a car, including what it's worth when he gets rid of it is all what the buyer is willing on stomaching. I freely admit we could all be driving $23,000 Honda Accords if it were all about which is the better value.
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  #434  
Old 04-23-2014, 07:30 PM
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I have had very good resale value on a 2010 GS I had, and in general Lexus have been known to have very good resale value.

Just to be clear, my post regarding the resale of the Genesis is that if you can buy a car that is $20,000 cheaper but will do most of what the more expensive car does, you will lose less dollars even though the resale value (which is expressed as a percentage of list price) is worse. Which would you rather lose, a percentage, or real dollars.

BTW, I realize this is all in response to the post where a guy stated that the Genesis has poor resale. What someone elects to spend for a car, including what it's worth when he gets rid of it is all what the buyer is willing on stomaching. I freely admit we could all be driving $23,000 Honda Accords if it were all about which is the better value.
I don't know. I bought my first '11 535i (3rd BMW owned) for about $53K, not including taxes. I just sold it after 42 months for $33K, or, 61% of it's original paid cost. I took that $33K (minus $2K owing on my loan) and pushed it into my new 535i (higher cost by choice, but that is beside the point). It's all about levels. Once you move into a certain price car, getting to the next one costs about the same as if you owned a much cheaper car worth less value -- make sense? You want to buy the car that will retain the value.
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  #435  
Old 04-23-2014, 07:35 PM
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I don't know. I bought my first '11 535i (3rd BMW owned) for about $53K, not including taxes. I just sold it after 42 months for $33K, or, 61% of it's original paid cost. I took that $33K (minus $2K owing on my loan) and pushed it into my new 535i (higher cost by choice, but that is beside the point). It's all about levels. Once you move into a certain price car, getting to the next one costs about the same as if you owned a much cheaper car worth less value -- make sense? You want to buy the car that will retain the value.
61% at 42 months is unusually high. Your point is correct, but I think that is an exception. But to me it's all simple math if you are good at predicting resale value, and usually I'm very good at it.

Ooops, I just realized what your said. You said 61% of what you paid, not list price. That I get. I've owned cars that I have done very well on, such as Corvettes. And you are correct that getting a very good deal on a car with high resale is the best of all worlds.
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  #436  
Old 04-23-2014, 07:40 PM
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Problem with these cars is that they have "poor mans iteration" and "wannabe" written all over them. They don't uphold any sort of distinction or evolutionary character details that build any kind of cachet or brand value. Therefore I think they'll always be perceived as "cheap" alternatives (however, that's probably their exact purpose). This new Genesis looks like any of the other more budget alternative Asian or even American Sedans that draw from various European ones.

When I drove the previous Genesis, I knew right away that it was the best value on the market and was a perfect "poor mans S Class", as it was obvious that generation was trying to be exactly that (and accomplished it, IMO). To someone like me, who appreciates what it takes to build brand appeal, and focuses on the details and underlying quality, and craves the "original" rather than the "copy", I could never get a Genesis as a primary car. Never mind how all those factors void it of any kind of "soul" whatsoever (which I find BMW very much has).

However, as an appliance, to get the job done, at a cost, no care about it on any passionate or serious or "connoisseur" sense, willing to sacrifice the "authenticity" factor, for sure, I'd get one over many other cars. I'd love a Genesis if I had something too sporty and/or unconventional to drive as my "passion car", i.e a 911, and didn't want to pay for a 5 Series or something more bonafide.

Very well said sir


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  #437  
Old 04-24-2014, 07:22 AM
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61% at 42 months is unusually high. Your point is correct, but I think that is an exception. But to me it's all simple math if you are good at predicting resale value, and usually I'm very good at it.

Ooops, I just realized what your said. You said 61% of what you paid, not list price. That I get. I've owned cars that I have done very well on, such as Corvettes. And you are correct that getting a very good deal on a car with high resale is the best of all worlds.
List Price was $56,075, which still works out to 58.8%. The car was super clean, plus being somewhat at the lower end of the 535i cost range, I think there is less loss in overall value, compared with a more highly optioned example.
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  #438  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:13 AM
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List Price was $56,075, which still works out to 58.8%. The car was super clean, plus being somewhat at the lower end of the 535i cost range, I think there is less loss in overall value, compared with a more highly optioned example.
No question you did well on that car. I am fanatical about taking care of my cars and it does help. I agree with the last comment as well. Good for you!
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  #439  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:17 AM
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Mark- since you don't keep your cars very long why not lease? I haven't done the math but with the low MFs and high residuals bmwfs offers I'd be surprised if it's worth the risk to buy outright and sell 3 years later..
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  #440  
Old 04-25-2014, 06:11 AM
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On a side note, the new Hyundai Sonata look very similar to the Genesis, both are great looking car. The Japanese have a lot to worry about, it seems that the Japanese and the Korean car makers are going in opposite directions.

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  #441  
Old 04-25-2014, 11:13 AM
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On a side note, the new Hyundai Sonata look very similar to the Genesis, both are great looking car. The Japanese have a lot to worry about, it seems that the Japanese and the Korean car makers are going in opposite directions.
No doubt. And they are competing for the same customers to a far greater degree than the Koreans and Germans are.

Going back a bit in the thread about the slumping ATS sales. I've seen maybe five on the road, ever - I see many more CTS of all types. This tells me two things:
  1. Cadillac has not shed its image problems at all, they are not successfully engaging the under-45 market, and the smartest thing GM could have done would have been to shutter the brand and start fresh with these excellent car designs using a new image for a new time. Cadillac as a brand name is a liability.
  2. The ATS is designed to be as much like the E46 as possible, according to Cadillac and the automotive press. Maybe we should start giving BMW a little more credit. The E46 love on these boards notwithstanding, if BMW thought that their 3 series target market wanted the 3 series as a neo-E46, they would probably be building it that way.
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  #442  
Old 04-25-2014, 11:28 AM
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No doubt. And they are competing for the same customers to a far greater degree than the Koreans and Germans are.

Going back a bit in the thread about the slumping ATS sales. I've seen maybe five on the road, ever - I see many more CTS of all types. This tells me two things:
  1. Cadillac has not shed its image problems at all, they are not successfully engaging the under-45 market, and the smartest thing GM could have done would have been to shutter the brand and start fresh with these excellent car designs using a new image for a new time. Cadillac as a brand name is a liability.
  2. The ATS is designed to be as much like the E46 as possible, according to Cadillac and the automotive press. Maybe we should start giving BMW a little more credit. The E46 love on these boards notwithstanding, if BMW thought that their 3 series target market wanted the 3 series as a neo-E46, they would probably be building it that way.

Good points. Not to mention that bmw now has the 2 series as a way to (atleast partially) address customers seeking a neo-e46. So as usual they've covered their bases.

Basically the "copy a competitor" but charge less isn't enough - they're going to have to do more to overcome the image they've built.
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  #443  
Old 04-25-2014, 11:41 AM
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No doubt. And they are competing for the same customers to a far greater degree than the Koreans and Germans are.

Going back a bit in the thread about the slumping ATS sales. I've seen maybe five on the road, ever - I see many more CTS of all types. This tells me two things:
  1. Cadillac has not shed its image problems at all, they are not successfully engaging the under-45 market, and the smartest thing GM could have done would have been to shutter the brand and start fresh with these excellent car designs using a new image for a new time. Cadillac as a brand name is a liability.
  2. The ATS is designed to be as much like the E46 as possible, according to Cadillac and the automotive press. Maybe we should start giving BMW a little more credit. The E46 love on these boards notwithstanding, if BMW thought that their 3 series target market wanted the 3 series as a neo-E46, they would probably be building it that way.
I almost see the ATS as a direct competitor with the new Sonata, that is how low my opinion is with the current Cadillac lineup. The problem is that Cadillac, much like the GS350, is not performance, it is the design. No one, young or old, wants to drive down the road in a car that look like a space ship, also, the Cadillac's interior is a ergonomic disaster, and dont get me started about their dealership, which makes Hyundai's dealership look good.
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Old 04-25-2014, 01:06 PM
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Did anyone have a Genesis (new or old) on a highway?

I was very unamused how the Sonata drives nicely around town but the way that it held a line on the highway (or failed to) was really annoying. I hope they don't use the same steering now.
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  #445  
Old 04-25-2014, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
No doubt. And they are competing for the same customers to a far greater degree than the Koreans and Germans are.

Going back a bit in the thread about the slumping ATS sales. I've seen maybe five on the road, ever - I see many more CTS of all types. This tells me two things:
  1. Cadillac has not shed its image problems at all, they are not successfully engaging the under-45 market, and the smartest thing GM could have done would have been to shutter the brand and start fresh with these excellent car designs using a new image for a new time. Cadillac as a brand name is a liability.
  2. The ATS is designed to be as much like the E46 as possible, according to Cadillac and the automotive press. Maybe we should start giving BMW a little more credit. The E46 love on these boards notwithstanding, if BMW thought that their 3 series target market wanted the 3 series as a neo-E46, they would probably be building it that way.
Precisely. Firstly, the Cadillac brand is really just never gonna shake its negative stigma, and the type of crowd who do historically like Cadillacs aren't the type of crowd who Cadillac want. The name "Cadillac" itself to many is an automatic avoid. They're working hard to shake that, but still have an extremely long way to go, and while the products have improved, they aren't grabby enough, IMO.

And as I said above, everyone loves to stir the pot with the vast "BMW killers" that have come and gone, but if BMW thought the E46 was better than the F30, wouldn't they just keep building E46's? Same goes for F10 and E60, etc. Magazine editors are the worst voice when it comes to dictating what "real world winners" want. They'd probably be happy if Cadillac benchmarked an 80's BMW as they're typically completely detached from what makes a well rounded real-world car, hence why the F10 lags in their subjective "15 minute dance-around-the-cones tests" while it's the segment favorite to actual buyers.
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  #446  
Old 04-25-2014, 06:51 PM
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Mark- since you don't keep your cars very long why not lease? I haven't done the math but with the low MFs and high residuals bmwfs offers I'd be surprised if it's worth the risk to buy outright and sell 3 years later..
Just had a chance to reply back. First, we've been leasing my wife's cars (Acuras) since 2003, so I did become familiar with the process there. This came about after we got rid of our last GM car -- I was historically a GM stalwart. The 2000 Buick Regal GS just wasn't a car anyone was interested in buying used, and the value also dropped after an accident repair. That's when I swore off once an for all, cars with low resale appeal and value.

For my cars, usually the more expensive one we own, I do still buy. People might think I'm wrong, and that's OK, but I've been buying cars now since I was a teen, and that's about 44 years of cars. As I described earlier, the available capital, from my previous car which I usually sell privately, far surpasses what I would need for a lease capital reduction to keep my monthly payment at a desirable rate. I'm paying less than $500/mo for my $64K 535i. I did "invest" about $8000 cash along with the $31K net I got from my '11 535i, plus my current $22.5K loan (@ 2.49%). For now, I'm still happy with the way I'm doing it.
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Prior: 2008 335i 6MT Sedan | Black Sapphire/Terra Leather | Premium | Cold | CA | OEM Alarm
Prior: 2005 330i 6MT | Black Sapphire/Sand Leather | Premium | Cold | UGO | OEM Alarm
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  #447  
Old 04-26-2014, 06:45 AM
bmw325 bmw325 is offline
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Posts: 8,322
Mein Auto: 528i
2015 Hyundai Genesis (or Kia K900)

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Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
Just had a chance to reply back. First, we've been leasing my wife's cars (Acuras) since 2003, so I did become familiar with the process there. This came about after we got rid of our last GM car -- I was historically a GM stalwart. The 2000 Buick Regal GS just wasn't a car anyone was interested in buying used, and the value also dropped after an accident repair. That's when I swore off once an for all, cars with low resale appeal and value.



For my cars, usually the more expensive one we own, I do still buy. People might think I'm wrong, and that's OK, but I've been buying cars now since I was a teen, and that's about 44 years of cars. As I described earlier, the available capital, from my previous car which I usually sell privately, far surpasses what I would need for a lease capital reduction to keep my monthly payment at a desirable rate. I'm paying less than $500/mo for my $64K 535i. I did "invest" about $8000 cash along with the $31K net I got from my '11 535i, plus my current $22.5K loan (@ 2.49%). For now, I'm still happy with the way I'm doing it.

Well, cost of ownership wise it seems to have worked out for you with bmws so far. Good to hear the real world residual values are close to what bmwfs says they are. And I know some people prefer the flexibility that owning outright provides.

For the past few years, leasing has looked attractive to me, but I expect that to change with rising interest rates and a higher volume of used cars (due to the prevalence of good lease deals) driving down residuals.

Are you already a bmwcca member? If not, I think it's worth joining if you think you might buy a bmw again. After you've been a member for a year you qualify for a rebate 1k on a 5 series.
I
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Last edited by bmw325; 04-26-2014 at 06:49 AM.
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  #448  
Old 04-26-2014, 08:19 AM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Location: Gaithersburg, MD
 
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Originally Posted by bmw325 View Post
Are you already a bmwcca member? If not, I think it's worth joining if you think you might buy a bmw again. After you've been a member for a year you qualify for a rebate 1k on a 5 series.
I
Yes, and I did get my rebate check! Previously, I wasn't paying too much attention to my sales manager, who is pretty friendly toward me after 4 cars. He had told me about BMWCCA when I bought my '08 but I missed out. I joined immediately AFTER buying my '11, so I am finally on board. And I then found out, it's actually BMWNA that pays out the rebates, and mine only took a couple of weeks to receive via the club.
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2014 535i Individual | Azurite Black/Amaro Brown Merino | Premium | Cold | PDC | Rear Camera | Anthracite Hdr
Prior: 2011 535i AT | Black Sapphire/Cinnamon | Premium | Heated Sts | Nav | Sirius | Anthracite Hdr & Trim
Prior: 2008 335i 6MT Sedan | Black Sapphire/Terra Leather | Premium | Cold | CA | OEM Alarm
Prior: 2005 330i 6MT | Black Sapphire/Sand Leather | Premium | Cold | UGO | OEM Alarm
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  #449  
Old 04-26-2014, 08:39 AM
bmw325 bmw325 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: New York, NY
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,322
Mein Auto: 528i
2015 Hyundai Genesis (or Kia K900)

Quote:
Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
Yes, and I did get my rebate check! Previously, I wasn't paying too much attention to my sales manager, who is pretty friendly toward me after 4 cars. He had told me about BMWCCA when I bought my '08 but I missed out. I joined immediately AFTER buying my '11, so I am finally on board. And I then found out, it's actually BMWNA that pays out the rebates, and mine only took a couple of weeks to receive via the club.

That's great. I happen to like reading roundel so that's a nice bonus too.

Believe it or not that 1k rebate (vs 500 on the 3 series) tipped my lease into being a bit cheaper than a similar 328 (which is originally what I'd been considering). The 5 is really on another level design and quality wise...I'm very happy. And I've been a die hard 3 series guy till now. Honestly, even the steering feels better to me than the f30s I've driven.

Bmw really does seem to try and retain customers with the cca rebate, loyalty discounts, etc. I'm sometimes amazed at how many incentives/programs they allow to "stack"

It's nice that they now let you submit via email - got the check pretty quickly. Last time it took about 2 months!
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Last edited by bmw325; 04-26-2014 at 08:42 AM.
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