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pothole explosions!

63K views 384 replies 95 participants last post by  floydarogers 
#1 ·
Don't get me wrong, I love BMW as much as all of you - I'm on my second one now - 09 335i sedan w/ spt pkge (1st was an 03 325i w/ sport pkge). But, after owning various crappy new and old American cars (including an 86 Mustang GT that was wood-glued and loosely screwed together), as well as a recent 06 Porsche Boxtser S (987), I can say without reservation no car emits a pure force 9 explosion in the cockpit upon hitting a pothole or off-grade sewer manhole like a BMW with spt. pkge. It's like an atomic bomb goes off in the front of the car upon each hard impact. I've hit the same bumps in my Boxster S and yes, the entire chassis responds directly, but it doesn't have the same "POP" that the E90 has. The sounds are so nasty that I feel the need to pull over and check for bubbles with my flashlight. By the way, I am running on non-RFT tires and still experience this.

Guys, no other car explodes on impact like ours do. I understand the sport package is stiffer but why the detonation sound? It's like a Jerry Bruckheimer production. The Porsche was built so solid it was a like a single piece of billet. Over rough pavement it would crash through the potholes like a Russian Ice Breaker crossing the Arctic in January. It was simply indestructable -no other car is built that solid. I never bubbled my 18" PS2 or bent a rim. I never felt like the car bottomed out like the E90 does. Even the old Mustang GT didn't POP! in potholes (but the dashboard sounded like it was going to fall into my lap over each bump - what a piece of raw s**t that car was (but loved the posi rear)).

Anyway, I love everything else about the car - it's superior in nearly every way to the class competition. Maybe BOSE can build a "noise cancelling speaker" to put in the firewall to offset the volcanic eruption over potholes. :)
 
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#115 · (Edited)
I don't understand what you guys are talking about. I drove my 335i with 21" rims, Run Flat Tires, coilovers, racing shocks on the stiffest setting and a 2" drop on this road today and had no problems.

 
#117 ·
One comment on low profile tires: I didn't realize how small the differences actually were until I ran them through a tire calculator.

These are the sidewall heights of the various tires available on the 328i (in inches)

205/16/55=4.4
225/17/45=4.0
245/17/40=3.9

It comes down to a difference of less than half an inch. Now, half an inch might matter a lot in the tire world, but shouldn't make the difference between a rim getting damaged or not.
 
#118 ·
One comment on low profile tires: I didn't realize how small the differences actually were until I ran them through a tire calculator.

These are the sidewall heights of the various tires available on the 328i (in inches)

205/16/55=4.4
225/17/45=4.0
245/17/40=3.9

It comes down to a difference of less than half an inch. Now, half an inch might matter a lot in the tire world, but shouldn't make the difference between a rim getting damaged or not.
Do you have similar specs for the 335i?
 
#126 ·
WAG ZHP: now you're talking. You may have hit the nail on the head actually. If it's the suspension bushings, I'd gladly pay whatever to have them changed immediately. Anyone do this yet? Can we fit the M3 bushings on our front end? Would BMW service do it or would they object?

By the way, I'd love to have that limited slip diff as well. Everyone should check out the winter driving thread in the M3 forum from the other day -a few M3 guys waxing on about how great there car is in the snow (with pics) with the lim slip diff and snow tires. Who new?
 
#130 ·
robdokwon and v12, Take a look at the part in this link: http://www.hpashop.com/product.sc?categoryId=113&productId=41
click on the "Click To Enlarge" picture. On the left end of the part is the rubber bushing. The E9x chassis uses parts where the bushings are built into the control arms and tension rods, whereas the previous models had seperate bushing components. Regardless, these bushings are still very compliant and under sever conditions they will fully compress and transmit the suspension force directly to the chassis.

Here's a link to a complete control arm upgrade kit: http://www.hpashop.com/product.sc?categoryId=113&productId=58
And here's a link to a diagram of the front suspension: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=WB73&mospid=49514&btnr=31_0814&hg=31&fg=05

v12, I think I may have confused your circumstances with some of the other posters in this thread. If you haven't hit any really ugly potholes or road debris, or otherwise done anything to throw your alignment out of whack, your alignment is likely fine and your traction problems may be nothing more than the crappy RFTs that your car is equipped with. If that is the case the new Michelins that you are going to be installing at the end of the week may fix your issues, or at least help considerably.

The problem with RFT tires is that to be able to support the weight of the car without air pressure the side walls have to be very stiff, or they need some kind of an internal support rib. This makes for a tire that is very stiff and unforgiving to road surface imperfections.

Take this non-compliant tire structure and combine it with sub 40 degree temperatures and you have four pieces of very hard rubber at each corner of your car that just kind of skip over the high spots on a rough road. RFT tires are bad enough at doing this under non-winter time conditions, but when you freeze or nearly freeze them they get extraordinarily stiff. Summer only tires get so stiff that they are unsafe under winter conditions. All season tires get pretty stiff, but they will still pass for most conditions. But if you are driving in cold, slushy, or snowy conditions, and on rough pavement you would be better served by a set of dedicated winter tires.

All season tires offer a compromise that works well enough under most conditions but don't excel at anything. Summer only performance tires are fantastic in the summer, OK in the spring and fall, and are just plain dangerous in the winter, so their compromise is that they are useless for one of the four seasons. Winter tires have a very soft rubber compound that stays flexible and complaint in the cold temperatures of winter, but get too soft and flexible as the weather gets warmer, causing them to wear very quickly and feel squirmy or slippery.

For those that demand maximum traction all year around the best solution is a pair of summer tires for the 3 warm seasons and a pair of dedicated winter tires for wintertime. The problem with that is having to swap and store the extra set of tires or tires and rims. People that are unwilling or unable to deal with that hassle are the people that have to live with the compromise of all season tires.

Run Flat Technology tires are the ultimate compromise. Sure there is the argument that you don't need to carry a spare, but to make up for that you get a tire that is so stiff that it doesn't do much of anything well. Poor traction on rough surfaces, heavy rotational mass that saps performance, stiff sidewalls that transmit road imperfections to the suspension (and when conditions are bad enough, onto the frame of the vehicle), and the fact that a catastrophic failure and absence of a spare will leave you stranded. What's not to like?

Oh, regarding sway bars. They will reduce body roll under cornering forces and will likely improve the handling of your car, but they won't fix the traction problem that you have described. In fact, if the road surface is uneven, stiff sway bars may exacerbate the problem you are experiencing.
 
#131 ·
Kilgore - well said. It's actually the "bottoming out" that's killing us. Otherwise, i'm relatively happy with my ride/handling balance for a heavy sedan.

By the way to all regarding my post a few spots above noting the M3 winter driving thread - check this out. I guess the lim slip posi rear makes a difference in the snow according to this guy.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333094
 
#132 ·
WAG ZHP: you rock with those links! It looks clearly like part #s 9 and 14 and their respective built-in bushings might be the culprit in all this mayhem. Nice job.

I wonder if those parts apply to a 2009 E90 as opposed to an E92.

Now, we need a guinnea pig to convert to the upgraded suspension and let us all know the dilly.
 
#136 ·
WAG ZHP: you rock with those links! It looks clearly like part #s 9 and 14 and their respective built-in bushings might be the culprit in all this mayhem. Nice job.

I wonder if those parts apply to a 2009 E90 as opposed to an E92.

Now, we need a guinnea pig to convert to the upgraded suspension and let us all know the dilly.
Yep, the kit in the 2nd link is for the E82/90/92/93 chassis (1 and 3 series cars). I don't know anyone that has swapped them out, but suspect that these parts along with higher profile tires would solve the problem.

Something that hasn't been mentioned, and isn't always recommended, would be to increase the overall diameter of the tire. The down side of this would be possible fender-well/body panel to tire interference, and throwing off the speedometer and odometer. One of the main reasons that large rims are installed on our cars is to provide clearance for the brake rotors and calipers, so you can only go as low as a 17" rim (or possibly a 16", and not all 16" rims would fit, each rim would have to be checked). Not all tire shops will entertain the idea of plus sizing just the tire portion of the rim/tire combination. There are just too many variables to take into consideration. An example is that a Michelin 225/35/18 has different external dimensions at the tread, shoulder, and sidewall than the same tire from Bridgestone, Goodyear, Yokohama, etc. That means that each fitment has to be done on a custom basis; many shops just don't have the time or aren't willing to go through the hassle.
 
#133 · (Edited)
Thank you wag-zhp for the comments and the explanation about the swaybars. Interesting read.
I could have spent hours looking for the information in your third link and I am sure I might not have found it; thank you.

I forgot to add that my problem as reported is on dry roads but indeed cold temperatures. I got the car last October and I have yet to drive it during the other seasons of the year, who knows how it will fare then?
Naturally, I would not expect much under wet conditions (rain or snow) under which I just slow down and take no risks at all.

So my plan is to get the Michelins put-on, break them in (500 miles I am told) and see whether I do get a better grip from the front train on damaged pavement.

If not then I'd have to decide whether I want to play this silly game and get the part you linked to above or get rid of the car and get something else.

In my case, I don't use my car to commute so it is purely a fun/ travel vehicle. If I don't feel safe driving it in any other way than a very conservative style, it isn't worth it.
 
#134 ·
by the way V-12, your problems during agressive turns with rough road are exactly the kind of hot water that many new Z06 owners reported. That car was so dangerous in the turns that even with stability control, dudes were hitting curbs, barriers and worse when the back of the car got loose under throttle and with unsmooth pavement.

PS to all: there's a reason (more than just price and public financing) that cops like to drive big crown vics w/ high profile tires. The car can go everywhere yours can't. It handles the potholes, the cracked pavement, the off-road stuff, high speed- whatever. Ask big apple cab driver too - they drive auctioned-off police crown vics for the same reason. FYI
 
#135 · (Edited)
You are right, you cannot repel the laws of physics. I am just disappointed our cars don't handle those situations better since the competition can.
It's a case when the car will just give-up and go straight (mass, velocity and gravity at play); not my definition of fun times.


LOL that's a great comment there about the cops vehicle/ brand loyalty. They are getting Dodge chargers or challengers or whatever it's called these days.

That puts things in perspective: do we have it backwards, why am I burning through cash to get a good-looking but almost unforgiving car?
 
#139 ·
To help protect the rims, running lower pressure will hurt. With a low profile tire the key element that is missing is that nice thick cushion of air between the road and the rim. Running lower than recommended pressure will give a smoother feeling ride, but you run an increased risk of wheel and tire damage due to road debris and potholes.
 
#146 ·
For what it is worht, yesterday I was driving around downtown where they are ripping up the streets for the new subway line. Hit two major potholes in about a three block span. Again, car was completely composed, didn't make any loud noises, and I didn't even have the handling thrown off course.

Is it possible that BMW found and fixed the problem at some point?
 
#149 ·
I recently took my newly acquired daily driver, a 2006 325xi in for service to address the suspension "bottoming" out. I have experienced this bone jarring experience before in vehicles with bad shocks. The dealer took the car and called me later to let me know the problem was solved. When I picked up the car they told me the problem was a set of worm bushings that they changed under warranty. The service rep went on to explain that although the car had the standard suspension, it was tuned for performance and that I had to expect a harsher ride - especially with run flat tires.
Sorry, this story does not fly. I own three other vehicles a 4WD Toyota Tundra, a Miata MX5 with sport suspension and a Porsche 911 - none of these produce the same bone jarring hit of the 325. To be clear, the 911 has had significant suspension work - I have gone to ROW lowering springs, Bilstein HD shocks, corner balancing and track prepared alignment. The 911 has 18" Technology wheels and low profile Michelin Sport Cups. It is definitely not a Lexus but it is a competent performer in DE events (in spite of the talents of the driver). I drive the 911 to driving events rather than trailer it - the roads leading to MT Tremblant in Canada rival the worst roads in New England- and this car does not bottom out.

IMHO, I think the shocks on the BMW are worn out after 27,000 miles and BMW does not want to address the issue. (Porsche OEM shocks on the 993are notorious for lasting only 20,000 to 30,000 miles.) I plan to bring the car into a top independent shop and get a qualified opinion and go from there.

Dave
 
#160 ·
IMHO, I think the shocks on the BMW are worn out after 27,000 miles and BMW does not want to address the issue. (Porsche OEM shocks on the 993are notorious for lasting only 20,000 to 30,000 miles.) I plan to bring the car into a top independent shop and get a qualified opinion and go from there.

Dave
I don't think it's worn shocks. I bought my 330xi in great condition, out of the city, at 16,000 miles. I immediately noticed the bottoming (worse than sport package i's btw). The xi's have soft front shocks with minimal travel. End of story.
 
#150 ·
Kilgore Trout: Your car is just special. The rest of us only have regular cars.


*** maybe your potholes that you think are large are not really large. maybe all of your manhole covers line up nicely with grade. If I could drive you to my work one day on my route, perhaps you'd lose your devil's advocate pose.


as for the 55th street FDR spot - I know it too. And what about the f'in below grade manhole covers in the left wheel track of the left most lane southbound FDR between 116 and 96th sts? AHHHH!!! Oh, and what about the right lane "sudden off camber hill and pavement misgrade" southbound FDR just after the old and closed 15th street entrance (south of elevated Ave C viaduct)? Talk about getting a "New Deal" on the "FDR" Drive :)
 
#151 · (Edited)
Kilgore Trout: Your car is just special. The rest of us only have regular cars.

*** maybe your potholes that you think are large are not really large. maybe all of your manhole covers line up nicely with grade. If I could drive you to my work one day on my route, perhaps you'd lose your devil's advocate pose.
Or maybe my car is just different from yours in a way that is meaningful and could help us solve the problem. So, getting beyond the sarcasm and actually thinking through the
variables might prove useful.

From what I can see in this thread, nearly all of the posters complaining of the bottoming out problem have ZSP or at least AWD. There are not many complaints about the base suspension (which I have - although I upgraded the tires to 17 inches).

I've also not seen a single complaint from somebody driving a 2009.

So, I'd submit that the problem is either related to specific suspension settings, or specific years.
 
#152 ·
I have an 09 and I'm complaining.


And your last sentence-

"So, I'd submit that the problem is either related to specific suspension settings, or specific years."

-is rhetorical. We all know it's related the sport suspension. But many of us have anecdotal experience with other sports suspensions from other car makes that don't have this explosion or bottoming-out phenomenon.

About your public relations/human resources speak -

"Or maybe my car is just different from yours in a way that is meaningful and could help us solve the problem"

-you're not getting the whole exercise of this thread. It's clear you love your car and you love BMW - got it. So do I and most of us here. But don't defend a particualr aspect of the car that doesn't deserve defending. The point of this thread is so that BMW, either by osmosis from public repuation, or directly from one of their minions reading this thread (I'd be willing to put money down that they do indeed) will learn about a frustration that most of us take seriously.

It's already been posited that some M3-based components in the suspension may alleviate the crash boom bam. But, now, come on, who wants to go through the time and expense of retrofitting their cars. Rather, we hope that BMW gets it right when we are ready to lease or buy our next model. It's also a good cautionary tale for prosepctive purchasers who troll the forum.

I don't wish this upon you, but it's safe for all of us to assume you haven't hit your "big one" pothole yet. When you do (and you're ears are still ringing and you might have that nice bubble in your sidewall - or worse, please start a mea culpa thread to preserve your integrity.
 
#153 · (Edited)
I have an 09 and I'm complaining.

And your last sentence-

"So, I'd submit that the problem is either related to specific suspension settings, or specific years."

-is rhetorical. We all know it's related the sport suspension. But many of us have anecdotal experience with other sports suspensions from other car makes that don't have this explosion or bottoming-out phenomenon.

About your public relations/human resources speak -

"Or maybe my car is just different from yours in a way that is meaningful and could help us solve the problem"

-you're not getting the whole exercise of this thread. It's clear you love your car and you love BMW - got it. So do I and most of us here. But don't defend a particualr aspect of the car that doesn't deserve defending. The point of this thread is so that BMW, either by osmosis from public repuation, or directly from one of their minions reading this thread (I'd be willing to put money down that they do indeed) will learn about a frustration that most of us take seriously.

It's already been posited that some M3-based components in the suspension may alleviate the crash boom bam. But, now, come on, who wants to go through the time and expense of retrofitting their cars. Rather, we hope that BMW gets it right when we are ready to lease or buy our next model. It's also a good cautionary tale for prosepctive purchasers who troll the forum.

I don't wish this upon you, but it's safe for all of us to assume you haven't hit your "big one" pothole yet. When you do (and you're ears are still ringing and you might have that nice bubble in your sidewall - or worse, please start a mea culpa thread to preserve your integrity.
Unfortunately, you continue to be too defensive to see the point. I am not trying to defend BMW. And to be blunt, I have little interest in trading snitty remarks with you.

I understand that many of you have had signficant issues here and am not denying that there is a very serious design problem. But, my own vehicle does fine on broken pavement and does no worse than any other car on potholes, large bumps, cracks in the road, etc.

So, look at how your cars are different from mine: suspension differences, tire differences, year, etc and maybe we can key in one what might be the cause. I don't have the same tires or suspension as most of you, and that might provide some important information.

How many drivers who have the base suspension are having this problem? I've not seen many in this thread. That might give you some clues as to what is going on, if you drop the childish sarcasm for a moment. Take a look at the elements of the ZSP and AWD that differ from the base, and you'll find the specifc problem.

Oh, and btw, the problem is NOT just ZSP, because there are AWD owners in this thread who don't have ZSP and also experience bottoming out.
 
#156 ·
Kilgore Trout's input here was very useful. The fact that he does not experience the same problem as some of us should help narrow down what is causing the problem.

CA
 
#164 ·
why don't we just have a message board where every thread title is "BMW is the bestest car in the whole wide world!"

and every post will reply - "perfect in every way!"

i started a thread the other day criticizing the NAV system and i literally got called a whore.

and i'm female. think about how insane that is. true ****ing believers!

there are some serious losers on this forum. it's like owning a BMW validates their pitiful existence.


lame.
 
#165 · (Edited)
I really don't see what you getting called a "whore" in another thread has to do with this one. I also don't see how calling everybody in a thread "pathetic losers" and "lame" is going to lead to anything productive but, whatever...

Honestly, do you ever have any posts that don't involved juvenile personal attacks of one kind or another?
 
#168 ·
09 335 xdrive with sport package has done this about 3 times in the first 2000 miles.. first experience was from a manhole cover probably 2-3" below grade. other explosion surprises cannot be explained because the road didn't even appear to be "dangerous".
 
#169 ·
I had seen this post many times before, but never bothered to read it .... until now!

Last night, at about 8pm with my daughter in the car, yes, 335 sport pkge, we were proceeding at about 20mph down York Ave through 66th St discussing where to have dinner, when, BANG!!! I thought all hell had broken loose! It really shook me up!

I'm still on my snow-tires (much better ride than RFT's) and I got a warning light "low pressure, left rear". I pull over and discover that not only is that tire almost completely flat, I've got a bubble in the left front! I already have a bubble in the right front from a pothole on I-95. So that's 3 tires damaged out of 4 inside 6 weeks! I've had the car just shy of 8 weeks!

With the aid of a can of FlatFix, I limped back to my garage in Astoria, but the punctured tire was still leaking. Thank goodness I've still got my Miata that I'm trying to sell!

I returned to the scene of the crime-- York and 66th. It wasn't apothole, but an unavoidable, unfinished wide strip of construction that did the damage. I'm going to call 311, for all the good it will do.

Going to deal with the situation shortly. The tire's probably completely flat now and I'll need a tow.

I've driven in NYC for almost 30 years. I've NEVER had an experience remotely like this!
 
#175 · (Edited)
I have Style 196 18" BMW OEM rims. They are exactly the same size as the 189s that the car came with. I got them because I liked the way the look, there is no performance advantage. I replace the RFTs with Pirelli P_Zero Nero M&S. Yheyare exactly the same size as the OEM Bridgestones. I am very satisfied with the result. They handle much better than the OEM Bridgestones. The main advantage is that they don't bounce around on rough surfaces the way the RFTs did. They are extremely quiet. I have a convertible and withthe top up it is as quiet as if not quieter than my Lexus was.

CA
 
#176 ·
Thank you so much for this thread!!! Now I know I'm not crazy.

The good news? After reading all the posts, I***8217;ve learned that the harsh noises I get from bumps is normal so there is nothing wrong with my car. The bad news? I***8217;ve learned that the harsh noises I get from bumps is normal so I***8217;m gonna have to get used to it.

FWIW, I was blaming the issue on the stock 18" RFT that were frozen solid in these cold temps. I was hoping it would go away by purchasing much softer non-RFT winter tires. Maybe it minimized the issue a bit, but not much. I haven't bit a full blown pothole yet. But I do feel/hear every piece of patchwork, manhole covers, etc... And the car still wanders a bit over bumps. Doesn't feel well planted. And I was really hoping it was just an RFT issue. ugghghghg

Now, I'm not sure what to do other than try to get used to it. Like some previous posters said, I guess it's the price you pay for sport suspension and low-profile tires. I can handle the stiff ride, but the noise and wandering is going to annoy me.
 
#184 ·
This thread is still going! Wow!

I can't believe that this thread is still going strong. Its slowly becoming a cheat sheet for where the potholes are in NYC to others discussing how to re-engineer the front suspension of the E92/E93 to festers at each others throats.

At the end of the day, I think that the suspension is excellent. For years and I am going back to the early 70s with the 2002, BMW has always been known for firm suspensions. How else does a car perform so well on the road at low and high speeds?!?

The bottomline is the roads in the big cities of the US suck and some of our Interstates for that matter do too. I did European Delivery through about 7 countries with my sport suspension-AWD last year and there were no complaints. Come back to the states, and NYC specifically and I throw out a curse word every other day.

We in the US (our municipalities) just do not give a 'crap' about our roads. I have seen them lay asphalt one week to only come and mark it up the next week to be cut up again to lay cable underneath the following week.

My 2 cents...
 
#185 ·
(snip)
We in the US (our municipalities) just do not give a 'crap' about our roads. I have seen them lay asphalt one week to only come and mark it up the next week to be cut up again to lay cable underneath the following week.
My 2 cents...
Is it that our municipalities don't care about our roads, or that they don't have the money to keep them in the condition that our Series 3's seem to require? I suspect that if they spent the money necessary to maintain roads as we would like, then many of us would be complaining about lack of other important services. Just my .01 cents. :dunno:
 
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