Is that a catch can? Yes it is. Goodbye CCV - Page 13 - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #301  
Old 06-28-2016, 10:27 PM
Joelgk Joelgk is offline
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Brandon, and BMW<3, thank you. It is clearer now.

The PCV should be on the outlet hose from the catch can into the air distribution piece bottom inlet- right?
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  #302  
Old 06-29-2016, 02:34 AM
pack horse pack horse is online now
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Just make sure the threads on the new pcv point towards the air distribution piece.
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  #303  
Old 06-29-2016, 05:18 AM
Joelgk Joelgk is offline
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Thanks Pack Horse
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  #304  
Old 06-29-2016, 07:26 AM
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Also. I found it works better if you put the PCV directly off the distribution piece so that the PCV sits verticle. When mine was horizontal it was constantly getting stuck closed and causing vacuum to collapse the hoses. I mounted it verticle and have not had an issue in 3 months since.
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  #305  
Old 06-29-2016, 07:37 AM
Joelgk Joelgk is offline
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Thanks for sharing that learning! Much appreciated.
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  #306  
Old 03-07-2017, 12:41 PM
jimwat jimwat is offline
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i have an 04 325i with blown engine. Bought a used engine and found out BMW made m54 and m56. My car is m56. The used engine I got is a m54. Looks like the only difference is valve cover and intake. Is the long block the same can I run all my m56 valve cover, intake, etc on the m54 engine? Looks like only difference is the CCv? I am new to the BMW world and got this car really cheap and putting it together for my daughters first car.
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  #307  
Old 03-07-2017, 03:20 PM
flyride flyride is offline
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The long block is the same except pistons. I don't think that will matter. You can definitely use the VC and delete the external CCV.

Is the M54 a 2.5L? The 3.0 manifold definitely won't fit.

There is something unique about the M56 and fuel delivery (aside from the fuel tank and sealed pump). I can't remember exactly what, but check the fuel rail and ecu connection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwat View Post
i have an 04 325i with blown engine. Bought a used engine and found out BMW made m54 and m56. My car is m56. The used engine I got is a m54. Looks like the only difference is valve cover and intake. Is the long block the same can I run all my m56 valve cover, intake, etc on the m54 engine? Looks like only difference is the CCv? I am new to the BMW world and got this car really cheap and putting it together for my daughters first car.
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  #308  
Old 05-26-2017, 07:51 PM
mr_y82 mr_y82 is offline
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Wow. That was a evening well spent (reading the thread... if I do this it will probably take less time!). Thanks all!
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  #309  
Old 06-01-2017, 12:39 PM
The_STiG_US The_STiG_US is online now
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Catch Can question (lengthy)

Hi guys,

Long time since I last posted questions here. Anyway, I was interested in using a catch can solution to dump the CCV stock system on all three of my cars (MY01 330xi, MY01 X5 3.0i, and MY03 525i) all using the M54 engines. However, I am concerned over reliability, stupid emissions codes, and possible issues of making more problems than solving them.

I have seen and heard several conflicting issues with Positive or negative pressures in the crankcase (in fact there is a youtube video of a guy saying a bad CCV can be determined by having too much vacuum at the crankcase evidenced by having difficulty removing the oil cap at idle and feeling the vacuum sucking at the valve cover opening; while I have read that vacuum at the crankcase is good and that the suction of oil cap being removed at idle is a good thing).

Others mention that increased vacuum will seal the low tension rings better and reduce oil consumption. While others state that the added vacuum is too little to overcome combustion pressures, but will starve out the cylinders as oil from the squirters will not reach areas or stay as long as it should. Thus causing potential major engine problems.

Trust me these are all concerns I have before trying to change out the stock system with a catch can system (aside from screwing up and putting the check valves/PCV in backwards and blowing the main seals from wrong pressure values). I had a catch can in my NA flat 4 Subaru Impreza and loved it, but though these cars are NA and not forced induction, they are not Subaru's either. The Subie was simple and just an add-on, the Bimmers are a deletion not simple.

I would like to see any testimonies from people who have run the catch can system for a good length of time, not a month or even just a year but longer. And read that they ran fine with no problems. What *those* systems are (part numbers if possible) and what type of environments they run in (sunny California vs colder climes). Plus any specific gotchas, if any, between the various M54 applications (E46 vs E39 vs E53).

Lastly, when trying to read through this thread which has started back in 2012 (so I hope there are people who did run a successful system for a decent set of time); I noticed that most people delete the oil return to the dipstick and retain the liquid in the catch can only. Would it not make more sense to have a drain for the liquid at the bottom of the can to drain back out to the dipstick? That way filled cans or even check valve issues won't cause problems with backwash into the valve cover causing possible hydrolock of the valves by the waste oil? Also, would it be better to deliver the vapor back into the intake manifold via the vacuum ports already present in the IM, such as the large vacuum port in the back of the IM that is plugged at factory, instead of running hoses every which way to the air distribution unit and just plug that up to maintain a closed system?

Anyway, it's great to be back and I hope to hear from you guys as I am interested in the deletion but do have some concerns that even after hours of reading, still haven't heard a definitive on (especially since this has been kicked around for some time already).

- The_STiG_US
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  #310  
Old 06-01-2017, 12:41 PM
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Over 100 k miles with a catch can on my 330 I, about 20 k so far on my 530i. Zero issues, zero oil consumption, zero codes.

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  #311  
Old 06-01-2017, 12:49 PM
The_STiG_US The_STiG_US is online now
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Brandon002,

Thanks for the quick reply. What system design are you using? Are they the same across both vehicles? Are you in a location that gets cold winters and/or uses ethanol gas? I live in Jersey and we have that type of gas and thus, I do get the dreaded "mayo" effect and would think a catch can could get fouled by it. Reason why I was asking on the oil drain back into the dipstick question.

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  #312  
Old 06-01-2017, 12:58 PM
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Chicago... So super cold winters. I run a hose from the valve cover to a catch can, can to PCV amd PCV to distribution plenum. Cap off the oil return on the dipstick. Same set up on both cars.

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  #313  
Old 06-01-2017, 01:21 PM
The_STiG_US The_STiG_US is online now
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Have you checked if your system develops too much vacuum at the crankcase? This is where I get nervous as some people are saying "Yeah no problems just don't worry", while others claim that the extra vacuum is beyond BMW specs and is one of the four horsemen of the coming apocalypse if not fixed. Similar to the thread you replied to with the Canadian who did a catch can system and worried about it and added a vacuum regulator and filter. Each catch can system I see or read about always seem to evolve from a simple solution to something more complex due to "issues" not forseen or addressed. Another person described his system and used a cheap catch can and had vacuum leaks everywhere and had to revert back to stock as it became a total mess to seal up the leaks. This is why I was posting my questions as I do not to introduce issues, but rather fix them.

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  #314  
Old 06-01-2017, 01:24 PM
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The whole point of it is to increase crankcase vacuum. Car runs better than before and thats all I care about. If it worries you that much why even bother? If my 100k mile testimony doesnt show it causes no damage I dont know what will.

By the way, my 330 has 286k miles on it. Catch can was installed at 155k.

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  #315  
Old 06-01-2017, 01:25 PM
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And my catch can is a Kobalt air compressor water remover. So no fancy baffles or regulators. I use steel pan scrubber mesh as a baffle in the can.

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  #316  
Old 06-01-2017, 01:27 PM
johhnyfaire johhnyfaire is offline
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Well, I can tell you for sure, adding vacuum at the intake manifold will be enough to tinker with your fuel trims... After completely installing a brand new oem ccv system on my m54, I played with manifold vacuum via the "O2Pilot mod" which I'm sure you've read about. While "on" it gives more vacuum at idle, and deceleration. This was evident in my fuel trims, about 4-5% LTFT, both banks(This will be enough to give people a sense that there engine is running better when it is not!) With the mod "off" fuel trims went down to perfect 0%. This tells me that the added vacuum is strong enough to affect fuel vapors not going where there are supposed to, in the cylinder to be burned... All this says to me how important it would be to get a good running car, namely one with perfect fuel trims at idle so you can quickly test if your system is working. Then, test your manifold vacuum. This number is what you want after you've set up your catch can with pcv. Since I haven't done it, I don't know this number myself. Also, other people that I've been reading about, so far, seem to be throwing caution the the wind, showing us what they did without objective testing is not helpful.

That said, you're on your own, as we all are, here. Any PCV will work as long as you verify you have the same vacuum at idle, you're good.

And YES, absolutely continue to use the drain back system. I really don't understand why people would ever plug up the oil drain tube, and would rather empty the can whenever full. wasteful and needless time wasted in going through that.

If you find a pcv that keeps the vacuum at idle the same as how bmw intended(think its supposed to be between 3-6in/hg) please tell us about it.

Good luck to you

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  #317  
Old 06-01-2017, 01:37 PM
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Have you seen the crap that a catch can catches? Why would you want water and mayo draining back into your oil system?

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  #318  
Old 06-01-2017, 01:41 PM
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computiNATEor computiNATEor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johhnyfaire View Post
And YES, absolutely continue to use the drain back system. I really don't understand why people would ever plug up the oil drain tube, and would rather empty the can whenever full. wasteful and needless time wasted in going through that.

If you find a pcv that keeps the vacuum at idle the same as how bmw intended(think its supposed to be between 3-6in/hg) please tell us about it.

Good luck to you
If you're going to drain the catch can back into the oil pan, you will need to make sure there is a high quality, easily cleaned check valve between them. Otherwise, it is possible for vacuum to pull oil from the pan back directly into the intake manifold, which could potentially cause hydrolock.

The "mayo" drained from the catch can is probably going to be emulsified engine oil, plus a little bit of combustion vapor and some moisture. The emulsified oil and moisture I don't have a problem with, but the fuel vapors are bad. They will dilute the engine oil and weaken its film strength.

As for me, I have three 530is, all equipped with CCV systems. Living in warm SoCal, I don't have a desperate need for a catch can, but it is a good mod for durability.
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  #319  
Old 06-01-2017, 01:44 PM
The_STiG_US The_STiG_US is online now
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Please don't take any of my statements in the wrong way. I am just a very logical person and especially with mechanical devices, have a hard time accepting the "Don't worry about it" attitudes some people have regard such changes. Your testimony is highly compelling and a major step for me to take that leap. However, I know that these cars are afflicted with the nefarious "Germantitis" engineering. Where tolerances are not handles well if out of spec. Very notably with oil conditions. I understand that you have driven on two cars with the catch can setup (and with one of the simplest one's too) with no issues, yet several people have tried and come back with either an evolved complex system with extra hosing and regulators and what-nots; or simply gave up. Primarily because these cars cannot handle changes in tolerances outside of specs. I believe and at marvel of what you have and would like to know what parts you used for your system, as it appears to work great. I would still like to hear others with their setups before making that plunge, I hope you understand. I already went through these cars when bought and had to redo many gaskets and components due to previous owner neglect or misguided intents. I do not wish to do something that would be equally bad or worse to my cars.

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  #320  
Old 06-01-2017, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_STiG_US View Post
Please don't take any of my statements in the wrong way. I am just a very logical person and especially with mechanical devices, have a hard time accepting the "Don't worry about it" attitudes some people have regard such changes. Your testimony is highly compelling and a major step for me to take that leap. However, I know that these cars are afflicted with the nefarious "Germantitis" engineering. Where tolerances are not handles well if out of spec. Very notably with oil conditions. I understand that you have driven on two cars with the catch can setup (and with one of the simplest one's too) with no issues, yet several people have tried and come back with either an evolved complex system with extra hosing and regulators and what-nots; or simply gave up. Primarily because these cars cannot handle changes in tolerances outside of specs. I believe and at marvel of what you have and would like to know what parts you used for your system, as it appears to work great. I would still like to hear others with their setups before making that plunge, I hope you understand. I already went through these cars when bought and had to redo many gaskets and components due to previous owner neglect or misguided intents. I do not wish to do something that would be equally bad or worse to my cars.

- The_STiG_US
The best way to check it would be to plumb a vacuum gauge to the dipstick tube on a stock CCV. Gauges are fairly inexpensive on Amazon, then compare that to what the catch can system reads.

Here's an article on external crankcase vacuum pumps. According to the article, generally, 12-14inHg show horsepower gains, but past 15, you need to worry about oiling and cylinder wall lubrication for non-dry-sump cars. Modern engines, however, may be able to go even farther without any detrimental effects.

High performance engines may gain 10-35hp.

http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories...up-horsepower/
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RIP, Seabiscuit - 03-11-03 530iA Sport, Sapphire Black/Black. T-boned 03-01-2017. 155,861mi.
Take 2 "Otto" - 04-25-2002 530iA Sport, Toledo Blue/Sandbeige. 142,000mi and counting.
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  #321  
Old 06-01-2017, 02:06 PM
The_STiG_US The_STiG_US is online now
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Interesting note ComuptiNATEor about the check valve. However, doesn't the dipstick already have vacuum present to pull in rather than out, plus the stock CCV has a drain to the dipstick but doesn't use a check valve either. I understand if you mean that the catch can system will over compensate pressures to create such a condition for back spill, and the check valve is to keep a piece of mind.

The gunk/mayo stuff is really just emulsified oil with moisture, going back into the pan is not a problem per se, issues would be when the stuff plugs up oil channels into the head and valve train starving those areas of lubricant. But this can happen even without the gunk being re-introduced as the moisture already exists from other causes (short trips, ethanol gas, etc). And the emulsification happens when the stuff is still mostly, if in motion it is still oil and liquidy (think like rendered fat from a grill, when cooled and sitting still it becomes lard, but if in motion and heated it's just good ol' oil).

The oil drain is exactly my question regarding the catch can system. On my Subie, the catch can was used as an add-on to the simple stock PVC valve and used to catch by-gas and reroute the oil from it. In the Bimmers, the catch can is a replacement of the stock PCV/CCV and adds a new PCV (Ball based vs stock diaphragm) to the engine. The can can still be there, but why not have it drain back? The check valve, may not be necessary, but a great insurance plan nonetheless and I would definitely put one on. Of course the crud that collects will look bad, but why *collect* it instead of just letting it get re-used? Moister in oil, is generally best cleared out by running the car at speed for a bit, collecting the oil and dumping it is not saving anything, as what I can see. And if you forget to empty the can back slogging presents a bigger issue that does not exist if you let it drain back.

Trust me, if anyone out there has a better answer or something logical to point out please tell me. I really would like to know. I just don't like what was said, where you put the thing on and hope for the best rather than think it through.

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  #322  
Old 06-01-2017, 02:11 PM
johhnyfaire johhnyfaire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by computiNATEor View Post
The best way to check it would be to plumb a vacuum gauge to the dipstick tube on a stock CCV. Gauges are fairly inexpensive on Amazon, then compare that to what the catch can system reads.

Here's an article on external crankcase vacuum pumps. According to the article, generally, 12-14inHg show horsepower gains, but past 15, you need to worry about oiling and cylinder wall lubrication for non-dry-sump cars. Modern engines, however, may be able to go even farther without any detrimental effects.

High performance engines may gain 10-35hp.

http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories...up-horsepower/
Yes! Something like this. But for intake side. Maybe plug into the one of the ports on the back of the intake manifold, and measure psi with a cheapo' vacuum bleeder. Could extend the port with an attached vacuum tube, clipped along the brake heat shield somewhere, then plug it there when not using. This would make it easier to access for multiple test.

I don't know if the dipstick tube would yield similar results. I would expect there to be a difference. But I guess it doesn't matter as long the numbers don't change with the catch can setup

And thanks for the article! This was what I thought is concerning.. "Engine builders still debate the amount of vacuum required to neutralize crankcase pressure with optimal effect on windage and ring seal, while still minimizing combustion chamber contamination."

People who are running catch cans on our engines are getting upwards of 20-25in/hg. That's too far from the "generally considered safe 12-14in/hg"

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Last edited by johhnyfaire; 06-01-2017 at 02:21 PM.
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  #323  
Old 06-01-2017, 02:20 PM
The_STiG_US The_STiG_US is online now
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Hmm... on youtube, 50sKid tested the vacuum pressure by disconnecting the valve cover outlet hose and checked vacuum rating of stock ccv vs catch can and 02Mod. He found that the stock ccv produced no added vacuum at all so the reading was at zero, and the catch can system kept a straight forward steady 18 inches of pressure and the 02Mod (a added bypass of vacuum hose to the intake manifold plugged ports showed a slow steady increase up to 18inches. So power could be seen gain I suppose with those numbers, but they were a bit high to me as 18inches of added vacuum could cause issues as noted before. Which is why I think some people add a vacuum regulator to reduce it down to a more a more manageable level. But this is why I need to know what people are doing in their setups if successful to gauge what design to possibly use and to know what to expect from it.

- The_STiG_US
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  #324  
Old 06-01-2017, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_STiG_US View Post
Hmm... on youtube, 50sKid tested the vacuum pressure by disconnecting the valve cover outlet hose and checked vacuum rating of stock ccv vs catch can and 02Mod. He found that the stock ccv produced no added vacuum at all so the reading was at zero, and the catch can system kept a straight forward steady 18 inches of pressure and the 02Mod (a added bypass of vacuum hose to the intake manifold plugged ports showed a slow steady increase up to 18inches. So power could be seen gain I suppose with those numbers, but they were a bit high to me as 18inches of added vacuum could cause issues as noted before. Which is why I think some people add a vacuum regulator to reduce it down to a more a more manageable level. But this is why I need to know what people are doing in their setups if successful to gauge what design to possibly use and to know what to expect from it.

- The_STiG_US
From the article:

"Wet sump engines can now run as much as 16 to 18 inches with modern piston-and-ring technology."
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RIP, Seabiscuit - 03-11-03 530iA Sport, Sapphire Black/Black. T-boned 03-01-2017. 155,861mi.
Take 2 "Otto" - 04-25-2002 530iA Sport, Toledo Blue/Sandbeige. 142,000mi and counting.
Take 3 "Manuel" - 11/??/2001 530i5 Sport, Toledo Blue/Grau. 191,000mi and counting.
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  #325  
Old 06-01-2017, 07:14 PM
The_STiG_US The_STiG_US is online now
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Problem is that these cars are running with 16 year old engines designed even further back from that. I would not consider them modern or contemporary technology as much more changes have happened since then, especially with electronic engine management.


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