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#1 · (Edited by Moderator)


The latest episode of "Head 2 Head" from Motor Trend is a battle of the little luxury sixes, looking to see which of these $50,000 sport sedans, all equipped with automatic transmissions, can lay the largest claim to your money: the 321-horsepower, six-speed Cadillac ATS 3.6, the 302-horsepower, seven-speed Mercedes-Benz C350 Sport or the 300-horsepower, eight-speed BMW 335i.
Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/motor-trend-goes-head-to-head-to-head-in-cadillac-ats-3-6/
 
#159 ·
So a bit of a review, since Beden1 as well as some others may have missed the chain of events:

-Yet another thread(out of like 20) where people come to the F30 forum to critique a car they often have not driven, let alone purchase while exalting the superior attributes of the previous models they CHOOSE to drive.
-JamesonsViggen(dashing young fellow) sees the absurdity in this yet again as he watches people wax on about a variety of previous BMW's, this time an E93...but wait, it's an IS. So let's come to the F30 forum, critique and play up on the E93.
-I then play devil's advocate and find plenty of things to critique about the E93(which I can do for any car, that's kind of my point) and making it seem inferior to my even older E36/7-let alone my highly modified E36/7
-The defense to that is, well it was only brought up becase BoltaJames goaded me into it. I will not defend your critique of my E93 which would bring into light the absurd discourse with the F30, instead focusing on my example car and calling it GIRLY...when in fact the E93 could be called just as much if not more-so.
-All of that is ignored. Instead, mine is bigger than yours is elevated by the 911 being brought up. When stated that my girly car can one up the 911 in half the regards the 911 trumps my car, keen eyed rocket scientists harp on said modified car and note how easy it is to slap on a turbo to a 911...once again...one upping instead of focusing on the initial point of how silly it all is to come into one forum to one up the current car with previous generations.
-Now I am told that MY girly car is one touted for the need to compensate. Not the 911 and former Vette owner, cars that one would stereotype as classic compensation mobiles. But that only comes from stereo-typing which is par for the course. I get to drive the stereotype girly car, while the one making the statement gets to skirt driving a girly E93 AND driving cars stereotyped for being driven by those wanting to compensate(911's and Vettes). Isn't that impressive?
-I thought I would give yet another example, maybe something even he/anyone else could grasp onto. The elitism in the 911 community, where many 993 owners feel it ends there(as well as 997.2 vs 991), after air cooling, inferior-less pure Porsches came after. Not only do we confirm such a stigma and bull**** statement exists, he goes on to say that the new model people know better, they are the party of elevated thinking. All while oblivious to how hypocritical it sounds to say that when it applies apples to apples to the F30 vs older BMW debate.

So I think that sums it up.
 
#162 ·
#172 ·
Historically, the 3 Series was the sport model and the 5 Series was a sport sedan with some luxury. With BMW, you had to pay up to get more luxury. The 7 and the 6 Series were luxury with superior handling characteristics.
 
#183 ·
I think many of us here need to lighten up. BJ and I have a history here of going at it but several years ago we reached the point where we stopped taking each other (and ourselves) too seriousy.

The fact that I am always willing to admit when BJ is wrong has also helped defuse the situation. :)

CA
 
#184 ·
I think many of us here need to lighten up. BJ and I have a history here of going at it but several years ago we reached the point where we stopped taking each other (and ourselves) too seriousy.

The fact that I am always willing to admit when BJ is wrong has also helped defuse the situation. :)

CA
I mentioned my wife's Saab my first week and BJ made a comment eluding to never being caught dead in such a thing. I was going to pounce when someone made me aware of him and I began seeing all of the humor in his posts. Now I savor BJ posts.

I have had the most heated forum wars one can imagine with epic Photoshop battles. Things got waaaay personal even breaching into girlfriends and wives. But in the end bygones were had and laughs continue to this day.

In the end it's a car forum and people always find a way to take things too seriously. But sometimes people go a bit too far. Even I have my hot buttons. I especially hate it when someone acts like an tough guy and says something very bold that I know for a fact would never say such a thing to my face. Basic human respect needs to exist, even online.
 
#189 ·
We will certainly be test driving an F Type as soon as they become available. I have no interest in an MT assuming the AT is as good as the one on the XKR and XKR-S.

CA
 
#191 ·
I believe they are using the same ZF 8-Speed Auto that we've seen in most of the recent BMW's. If that is the case, the transmission is amazing. BMW's got it tuned perfectly. Hopefully Jaguar can do the same.
 
#193 · (Edited)
Regarding steering heft.

There is nothing WRONG with the E series heft. There is nothing WRONG with the F30 heft.

I did find the E heavy for heavies sake. You know, kind of like when you shake a guys hand who goes overboard and it's way too firm of a hand shake. It just winds up being more than is needed to get the point across.

So there are plenty of people who can camp for it being great and others that will find it a turn off.

I find in Sport and Sport + both heft and feedback are fine. Not as much of both when compared to my E36, but still fine and better than most cars out there.
 
#195 ·
Yes, I meant to mention that. Excepting Porsche type "semi-exotics" BMW steering is miles and miles and miles beyond the steering of virtually any other auto maker.

One other comment regarding the topic of this thread, having driven the F30 3er and the current C Class there are only two reasons one could possibly describe the C Class as having better driving dynamics and characteristics, in any way, than a 3er. The person would either have to be under the influence of crack or have a purposeful, biased bone to pick with the 3er. The C Class simply does not handle or drive as well as the 3er. Period. This reviewer's statement to the contrary eliminates his credibility.
 
#194 ·
When the guys says "this is the best sports sedan you can buy right now", his eyes do a double take...
After that he says "while flawed" and "we think" the Cadillac is the best then says what we love to see is the engine and transmission in the BMW. In the middle of the video he said the BMW has the best navigation system. How could BMW be last?
Don't be taken by that review. Do your own test drive.
 
#198 · (Edited)
When the guys says "this is the best sports sedan you can buy right now", his eyes do a double take....
Another thing that caught my attention was the very beginning of the review.....when he says that anyone looking for a $50k sport sedan is going to look at these three....the 3er, the C Class and the ATS. Really?! Nope. They're going to look at the 3er, the C Class and the A4. They might look at the ATS. At this point in time many of them aren't even going to realize the ATS is meant to be considered as a competitor in the class. Four years in and half the population can't even name Joe Biden as the vice president.
 
#204 ·
I'll be all over a four door 1er sedan!! I loved the size of my '96 Infiniti G20. Of course, one main reason I bought it was 'cause it was called a Japanese E36 3er.
 
#210 · (Edited)
Lets keep in mind that Caddy engineers basically took a 3-series BMW and ripped it apart to figure out what makes it work and used it as their benchmark. I know they looked at the E46 extensively and I believe they also spent some time with the E90. They acknowledged that the BMW was THE car to mirror in this segment and it looks like they did a good job. It's certainly not perfect and I don't think I'd buy one just yet, but it looks like a solid attempt and we should all be willing to admit that. This was a big change from the days of Caddy building what they thought people wanted, which was then watered down by the bean counters. They actually took a serious attempt here at copying the formula that has worked for generations for BMW.

As far as payola in the auto mags, you all realize that all of those times BMWs were winning and we were going "hell yea!" the people on the other make forums were going on with their payola theories. It comes off as being a bad sport.
 
#211 · (Edited)
Lets keep in mind that Caddy engineers basically took a 3-series BMW and ripped it apart to figure out what makes it work and used it as their benchmark. I know they looked at the E46 extensively and I believe they also spent some time with the E90. They acknowledged that the BMW was THE car to mirror in this segment and it looks like they did a good job. It's certainly not perfect and I don't think I'd buy one just yet, but it looks like a solid attempt and we should all be willing to admit that. This was a big change from the days of Caddy building what they thought people wanted, which was then watered down by the bean counters. They actually took a serious attempt here at copying the formula that has worked for generations for BMW.
One reason of many I think it is stretching it pretty far to credit Cadillac in their initial attempt with having bested BMW. The odds of that are virtually nil. I think the fawning has much more to do with the auto rags amazement that Caddy did this well on their first attempt. We all know GM and Cadillac have made big claims to be after their competition in the past, only to fall flat on their face, revealing their lack of serious commitment.

Something else I noticed about the ATS, it feels smaller, tighter, more narrow inside than the E46 and the rear seat has noticeably less legroom. The rear seat itself is pretty comfortable and it does not feel particularly like you're in a hole. The excessively wide C pillars of the CTS, along with the sunken cushion, make its rear seat feel like sitting in a dark hole.
 
#251 ·


Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/motor-trend-goes-head-to-head-to-head-in-cadillac-ats-3-6/
Blah blah blah...BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac, Audi, Porsche, who cares, at least we're all not driving Hyundai's amirite??

I've been a fanboy for years but only became an owner recently, so while I have driven E46 (01 M3 started the BMW obsession) and other various E9x, I'm no expert on them. I haven't driven a bimmer I didn't enjoy. I love my F30 335 more then any vehicle I have ever owned. I can't comment on the Cadillac but I test drove the MB, and fun factor isn't on par with a 335.

To bash the 3-series because it has evolved is ridiculous IMO. That's what BMW does, they innovate. That's why they are the most valuable automotive brand in the world and one of the top 10 most valuable corporate brands. I'm excited for where BMW is going and think it will only continue to get better. But I'm biased, I'm a kool-aid drinking fanboy, so FWIW.

/going for a drive
 
#254 ·
I acknowledge the value of comparisons for those looking to buy. As an owner, unless one brand clearly distances my car, I don't really care who's deemed the best. At that point my focus is on whether I like the car. I've had some I've liked, others not so much. Based on the overall experience and many individual aspects I'm happy with the F30. Based on how much I look forward to driving the car it's right there with the best I've owned.

As to those who don't own the car, aren't going to buy it and continue to come here and be critical of it, I view it as miserable people feel compelled to spread their misery. I don't see how they provide anything other than a sad sideshow.
 
#260 ·
I've read most of these comments and there are too many to respond to, but I'll agree with most of what BJ has said.

I will say that the vast majority of buyers will care more about the usability of the car than they will about the "performance dynamics" or whatever. This is found to be true across many markets. It's the reason the iPhone and iPad have stomped the competition. They are simply the most usable while sometimes not having the greatest specs (e.g. the few Android phones I have actually seen have larger screens, but man they are not that usable).

BMW's usability and ergonomics are fantastic. He calls the interior "bland" but frankly, it is usable. Form follows function in a BMW. Just his showing how Cue works immediately eliminated the ATS from my consideration. The same goes for what he should in the MB. This review showed only a few of the major issues with these other cars.

But you also can't discount the little things these reviews ignore. For example, the BMW knobs to adjust the temperature are significantly more usable than the push buttons found in other vehicles.

Or how about a nuance like this: In the all new Lexus GS350, to turn off the turn single, you have to push the stock in the opposite direction in which the turn single is pointing (you push down to turn left, but then you want to turn it off, you naturally want to push down again... not in the Lexus, you have to push up).

These are the little details that are so frustrating about other cars and not frustrating about the BMW.

But they don't mention this stuff in reviews. No, the guy is only concerned about twisty roads which he knows darn well account for only 2% of his driving.

The reviews aren't weighted correctly in terms of what buyers actually care about.

I'm sure we'd all love driving the ATS on a curvy road. But almost every day my drive is a commute to work and navigating parking lots. I drive a 5 and every time I have to use a 3 loaner, I don't enjoy it as much because the steering is so stiff. I'd enjoy the loaner more if I decide to maybe once in a while perhaps possibly by outside chance take it on a canyon road (here in Utah). But the fact is, that is not reality. That is not day to day driving.

I'm ordering a new F10 this week (I currently drive an E60). I drove my E60 then the F10 in a twisty canyon road back to back (immediately back to back) to compare. Did the E60 provide more steering feedback? Yes, some. Which did I enjoy more? I probably enjoyed driving the E60 slightly more. Which interior did I enjoy more? (probably a rhetorical question, but to be clear: F10). The F10 is so much more polished in every way than the E60. Which did I enjoy more driving between the dealership and the canyon road? The F10 by a long shot.

I like what BMW is doing. If you want an old 3 series, get a 1 series.

-Corey
 
#261 · (Edited)
Even the most ardent BMW fan will not question the "usability" of a Lexus. In fact BMW is known to play catch up with Japanese counterparts in "usability." While you agree with BJ for the most part, you both should understand the reason you like the new BMW more than the old, is because the new one is more Lexus like.

In fact even the newer generations of mainstream models, such as Camry, Accord, Fusion, or Malibu, have better "usability" than any entry level luxury models. All of them can take care of your "98%" of driving, often times more comfortably. So why buy a sporty luxury model? Either you buy it for the badge, or you buy it so you can really have some fun with that "2%" of driving.
 
#263 · (Edited)
I am driving a rental Mercedes C250 in South Florida for 2 months. The roads here are in good shape but they are very flat and very straight. The only curves are on/off ramps and the only hills are on the causeways to the barrier islands. Even with those types of roads my wife and I both notice the difference in the feel of the Mercedes vs. our BMWs. The Mercedes is a nice car and will serve our purposes for the next few weeks but it does not drive as well as our 335i. It also does not drive as well as the 750 but that is not really a fair comparison.

BMW's edge has traditionally been the way the cars drove. If BMW loses that advantage IMO they will start losing sales to the competition. When it comes to attributes like luxury and usability BMW does not offer anything that is not readily available in many other brands.

CA
 
#273 ·
I am driving a rental Mercedes C250 in South Florida for 2 months. The roads here are in good shape but they are very flat and very straight. The only curves are on/off ramps and the only hills are on the causeways to the barrier islands. Even with those types of roads my wife and I both notice the difference in the feel of the Mercedes vs. our BMWs. The Mercedes is a nice car and will serve our purposes for the next few weeks but it does not drive as well as our 335i. It also does not drive as well as the 750 but that is not really a fair comparison.

BMW's edge has traditionally been the way the cars drove. If BMW loses that advantage IMO they will start losing sales to the competition. When it comes to attributes like luxury and usability BMW does not offer anything that is not readily available in many other brands.

CA
i dont think that has changed. and the thing to consider is the group of buyers that really notice this are the >10% that buy a BMW. i think there is a much greater chance the bmw gains new customers from the lexus and mercedes crowd than lose them to go to an ATS.

I am very please with my F30. My only complaint is its a little large, but everything is an improvement over the E90 335 i had(except the N54>N55)(but ppk should solve that)
 
#264 ·
I've driven both of these cars quite frequently and I really don't think that there is a comparison in the long run. The ATS demo that we have already creaks and cracks and it gets very tired, very easily. I've heard a few people say that they feel that the BMW has a "rubbery" feel to the steering and I don't understand that at all.

The fact that the BMW came last in this comparison shows how rubbish this entire review is. The Mercedes-Benz has scary (and I mean that literally) steering. It is so numb that you really can't feel what's going on and it quite literally scares me and makes me extremely nervous. The gearbox in the Mercedes-Benz is also very, very slow to respond in manual mode and overall pretty sluggish on a track. Same with the Cadillac's gearbox. It's too sluggish in manual mode and I find myself yelling at it more-so than not.

Honestly, I don't think this review holds any merit and was made just so they can say "oooh look at this review because it's controversial."
 
#265 ·
Is your ATS demo a 3.6 Premium with LSD, magnetic suspension?

I think Motor Trend, C&D and R&T are just crap paid advertisers, hell, they give the magazine away for 30 cents an issue cause they know you're not paying the bills.

Still, these complaints remind me of Audi owners in the past complaining about the 3 series winning all the comparisons cause of biased reviewers. :D
 
#266 · (Edited)
I have had 2 different C250s (Hertz Rentals) in the past few weeks. As far as I know they were identically equipped and the both had about 16,000 miles when I picked them up. I took the first one back because of some issues. The steering on the one I currently have feels much tighter (I have no idea why) and although not as good as my 335 I would not describe it as numb or scary (but would in the case of the first one). I have not tried the transmission in manual mode and other than trying it out see no compelling reason to do so. I miss the acceleration of the 335 but the Merc is certainly capable of keeping up with traffic and easily merging onto highways. I doubt that very many C250 owners take their cars to the track. For the kind of driving I am doing here on straight flat roads the C250 is more than adequate but not exactly impressive.
 
#267 · (Edited)
I think the Motor Trend reviewer gave his honest opinions of the cars he drove. I may not necessarily agree (I have never driven an ATS or an F30) but I don't think he had any ulterior motives or was bought off by GM.

CA
 
#268 ·
Is your ATS demo a 3.6 Premium with LSD, magnetic suspension?

I think Motor Trend, C&D and R&T are just crap paid advertisers, hell, they give the magazine away for 30 cents an issue cause they know you're not paying the bills.

Still, these complaints remind me of Audi owners in the past complaining about the 3 series winning all the comparisons cause of biased reviewers.
All of the reviews between Audis and BMWs are true: Audis understeer horribly and don't deliver enough power at the right times while sporting mediocre gearboxes and a "jack of all trades, but master of none" attitude matched with a usually great look exterior. *deep breathe*

Our ATS is a 3.6 Performance and has been into our Cadillac Service Dept. 3 times already for issues. I agree with what you said about being advertisers, 100%.
 
#269 ·
I have had 2 different C250s (Hertz Rentals) in the past few weeks. As far as I know they were identically equipped and the both had about 16,000 miles when I picked them up. I took the first one back because of some issues. The steering on the one I currently have feels much tighter (I have no idea why) and although not as good as my 335 I would not describe it as numb or scary (but would in the case of the first one). I have not tried the transmission in manual mode and other than trying it out see no compelling reason to do so. I miss the acceleration of the 335 but the Merc is certainly capable of keeping up with traffic and easily merging onto highways. I doubt that very many C250 owners take their cars to the track. For the kind of driving I am doing here on straight flat roads the C250 is more than adequate but not exactly impressive.
C250s are great cars to drive everyday. The interior is a wonderful place to be and the engine can be a blast to mess around with in town. What I'm speaking about is when you push it a little bit. During 'spirited' driving I honestly don't feel comfortable driving a Mercedes-Benz unless it's a 63 of some sort. Again, around town and driving mildly aggressively it is an fantastic machine.
 
#271 ·
You have to love all the excuses LOL! There is a very good reason the 3 series has won most if not all the comparisons in the PAST. It was because of steering, handling and the overall driving feel. Pretty much the same reason the ATS was declared a winner here. The tables have turned and the ATS is a better sport sedan. Multiple reviews stated the same. The F30 is moving the same direction the F10 did. In no longer is what the 3 series was and there is a 2 series on the horizon for this reason.
 
#277 · (Edited)
If advertising dollars were the reason, GM must have bought out not just MT, C&D, PM, Esquire, Canadian auto journalist association, US Motor Press Guild...

Even if we suppose the F30 iDrive is the best in the class, and that was the reason someone chose BMW over Lexus, some of it had to do with the guy being used to BMW because he has been driving a 5 series all this time.

But hey it is good that a 5 series driver comes here to support BJ's new 3 series, it proves his points. BMW has made big improvements in usability, luxury and comfort, as a result they will continue to sell well, grab market share from MB, Lexus, Audi and Acura. Nothing wrong with that.
 
#278 ·
How quickly we seem to forget that everyone other mag comparo with the F30 328-the ATS has been trumped where the F30 comes in first. As we know, most of these cars are sold with entry level engines. So where is GM's dollars to save them there?
 
#283 · (Edited)
Interesting. ZF claims they do. www.zf.com. In Products and Services do a search for Porsche. Though I also found at least one website that is a ZF/Bosch collaboration. It's a little confusing.
 
#290 · (Edited)
And I continue to maintain that if BMW had really cared about this they could have spent some R & D on a smaller displacement turbo I6 for the 328. They've certainly built plenty of smaller displacement I6s in the past. They've even built a 2.0 liter I6. They purposefully chose the cheap, easy route for the N20. Unfortunately, for you and me and others like us it appears the market is pretty readily accepting their cheap ass decision. I continue to be amazed at how little backlash there has been to the four banger in the 3er. Though the acceptance doesn't seem to be as widespread with potential 528 buyers. Fortunately for BMW the 528 is a pretty low volume seller in the U.S.
 
#291 · (Edited)
My E93 335i had a very annoying rattle coming from the dash area that was there the day I got the car. It annoyed the crap out of me and I thought it was unacceptable on what was supposed to be a solidly built car.
After a few days with the car and before I had a chance to take it to the dealer it went away. At this point with about 40,000 miles on the odometer the car is rattle free and very quiet. It feels very solid and tight and considering the beating it has taken on NYC roads I think that speaks volumes for the build quality.

The rattle never returned and I never found out what caused it.

CA
 
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