BimmerFest BMW Forum banner

These engines take forever to warm up

14K views 50 replies 29 participants last post by  galahad05 
#1 ·
Since the day it was new, I've been surprised at how long it takes for the oil temperature to come up on my car. Case in point was today. 12 minutes from the house, 10 miles away with 8 of them on the highway, and the oil temperature still hadn't moved off the peg. Barely made it to 210F by the time I reached the office 30 minutes / 30 miles later.

Now, granted, it was 6F this morning when I left the driveway, but still ......
 
#2 · (Edited)
Not certain about how quickly the oil temps come up in a 335, but typically it does take quite a bit longer (several times longer) than the coolant.

I was offered the chance to wring out a friend's Ferrari once. Of course, we had to wait until all of the temps got up to the normal operating range before the fun could begin. We drove around on the highway waiting for all the temps to stabilize.

It was the longest 30 minutes of my life....
 
#7 ·
Not really ..... that's why the needle moves .....
 
#4 ·
At least you have the gauge to keep it under control. I can judge the engine temperature only by the amount of heat from the climate control system. Even my daughters little Toyota has the cold temperature indicator, I have nothing.
 
#5 ·
Maybe that's why the manual says to drive as soon as you start it and not wait until the car warms up.
 
#27 ·
It says to drive off immediately because you're warming up everything together that way and thats what BMW wants. Tires, Diff,Transmission,Oil,Coolant etc... all at the same time. Driving off but keeping it moderate is the best way to do this.
 
#8 ·
I didn't say anything about punching it or hitting the redline. I would quote the owners manual but don't have it at my finger tips. Just drive it to warm it up don't wait.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Exactly, as indicate by others here as well.

We recently had a rental pick up that had both coolant and oil temp gauges. The coolant gauge was up to normal much faster than the oil temp, and the oil temp changed freely as we drove, cooling down on the highway at low RPMs and going up again in town with frequent stops and starts.

I always found that BMWs coolant temps reach normal operating temperature much faster than other cars, to be honest. They also start blowing hot air into the cabin during cold temps faster than most cars. :dunno: The old E36 I used to drive warmed up really quickly (coolant temp) in cold temps in Germany. The Hyundai I had before that hardly warmed up at all driving few miles, but then that was before Hyundai made quality cars. ;)
 
#12 ·
It's near zero F. these mornings in NH. If anyone would like to see the data I'll start from cold tomorrow morning and scan coolant temperature and oil temperature on my way into work. Then I'll post the graphs and you can see what happens when.
Please note that this will pain me greatly. Ilsa prefers to hibernate for the Winter but she'll do it in the interest of furthering the collective knowledge. Ask nicely.

(I've done this before, but didn't save the graphs. There are lots of interesting data points.)
 
#14 ·
Oil temp lags water temp by about 50 degrees. So when your oil gauge show 160, your water is already at 210 degrees F.

Coolant only cools the block and head of heat that has traveled THROUGH them. Oil cools the moving parts, pistons, crank, valvetrain, turbos .... where the heat is generated through combustion and friction. Oil temp is a much better indicator of engine condition them water temp. The owner's manual gives a pretty good explaination of this.
 
#17 ·
Correction, on the N54 at least, coolant cools the turbos. Oil does lubricate them and does carry away some of the heat as a result, but it is the coolant's job to cool the turbos.

The following is right out of the BMW Engine Management Training Document....

The turbine and the compressor can rotate at speeds of up to 200,000 rpm.
The exhaust inlet temperature can reach a maximum of 1050°C. Because of these high temperatures, the N54 engine's turbochargers are not only connected with the engine-oil system but also integrated in the engine-coolant circuit.It is possible in conjunction with the N54 engine's electric coolant pump even after the engine has been switched off to dissipate the residual heat from the turbochargers and thus prevent the lube oil in the bearing housing from overheating.
 
#15 ·
My car's engine starts to warm up the moment I sit my butt in the drivers seat. No ignition required.

:freakdanc:bareass::flame:
 
#19 ·
Is it possible that 1) the gauge is broken and/or 2) your engine runs cool? You are using steptronic, so unless you are in DS mode the engine shouldn't really get that hot.

I do miss the oil temp gauge. It's useful for all to know, not just manual shifters
 
#20 ·
Is it possible that 1) the gauge is broken and/or 2) your engine runs cool? You are using steptronic, so unless you are in DS mode the engine shouldn't really get that hot.
No, it's not broken, because it's done this since day 1. In the summer, it will come off the peg a bit sooner, and eventually ends up around 240 if the outside temperature's over 50 degrees or so. Highest it ever reached is +/- 255 on CTC3, and you could smell the difference outside the car.
 
#23 ·
Somewhere I read an informative post from one of the big N54 tuners, who mentioned that the DME firmware prevents full boost until oil temps reach 180 F.
On my car's gauge (2007 model) that's two ticks off of the base.

So essentially this is BMW Engineering's opinion on the matter.
 
#26 ·
The JB4 limits you to stock boost until you hit 160 degrees oil temp. After that it's funtime.
 
#24 ·
Hate to quote myself, but here's something I posted 5 years ago in another forum.
Why does my engine take so long to warm up?

Q: Why does my 335's engine take so long to warm up?

A: Actually it doesn't take any longer than any other engine. It just seems to take longer because you are being informed by the much more important engine oil temperature. Most temperature gauges tell you the temperature of the coolant ("antifreeze") in the cylinder head. This is NOT what you need to know, and here's why BMW engineers want you to know the oil temperature.
It's an old engine builder's maxim that cylinder heads make the power, the block only gets it to the wheels. It's the cylinder head which contains the compressed air/fuel mixture, and where that mix is ignited generating very high temperatures with little heat transfer area. As a result the head heats up much faster than the more massive block.
Cylinder head temperature is a very poor indicator of the block temperature! There are many rotating and sliding components in the block which may not yet have expanded to the proper size for optimal wear, and the minimization of stress. Yes, you can be getting lots of heat in the passenger compartment, maybe even defrosting that overnight ice accumulation. But the block can still be so cold that frost will be on the block's exterior.
The oil temperature is a much better indicator of the overall engine temperature. Your engine is NOT 'warmed up' until your oil temperature is in the correct range. Then you can be sure that your crankshaft has lengthened to the point where thrust bearing strain is reduced, that pistons are optimally sized to the cylinders, that journal clearances are dead-on nominal, and cylinder head gasket clamping force is correct. Then go ahead and drive it as it was designed to be driven, knowing that your oil temperature is telling you what you really need to know.
 
#25 ·
Okay, I know I'm comparing kiwi's to kumquats, but even in very temperate south east Texas temperatures, on the 328i I see this same behavior. I have a 4.5 mile commute to work. There are almost no days in the months between Nov 30 and Feb 28 that I ever get the temp gauge off the peg during my morning commute, and that usually includes two little engine races along the way.

I would very much like to see Ilsa's EKG!!
 
#30 ·
Okay, I know I'm comparing kiwi's to kumquats, but even in very temperate south east Texas temperatures, on the 328i I see this same behavior. I have a 4.5 mile commute to work. There are almost no days in the months between Nov 30 and Feb 28 that I ever get the temp gauge off the peg during my morning commute, and that usually includes two little engine races along the way.

I would very much like to see Ilsa's EKG!!
So, 328 convertibles have the temp gauge? It ain't fair:).
 
#31 ·
Not really. The bottom peg on the oil temp gauge is 160º Fahrenheit. That's much higher than ambient temperature. The engine is warmed up long before the needle moves.
Thats true IF 120F oil temp is considered "warmed up". Most here would agree 200-250F (oil temp) is a properly warmed engine. However, I wait until my coolant hits 120F and then slowly drive off. By them time I get out of the neighborhood, coolant would be close to 200F and im just getting a small reading on the oil gauge.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Irrefutable evidence.

This morning I woke up to find it was zero F outside, and 14F in my garage where Ilsa had been hibernating, undriven, for a few weeks. I hooked up my Snap-On Solus Scanner and set it to graph four PID's, data streams from four sensors. They were rpm, engine oil temperature, coolant temperature in the cylinder head, and coolant temperature at the radiator outlet.

I was interested in comparing oil and coolant temperatures, and comparing their slopes to see what happens when.
Here's a summary of what the graphs show.

When I started the engine (it started instantly) the temperature values which displayed immediately showed the coolant at 17F and the oil at 36F. One of those two readings was incorrect and I suspected the oil temperature. I later found out that the minimum possible reading of the oil gauge was 36F, and that's what it showed.

I let the engine run about 90 seconds and backed it out of the garage and drove a mile through my neighborhood to the highway entrance. That took about two minutes. When I left the garage my readings were coolant 62F, Oil 36F (again, the lowest possible reading for the sensor). I had the heater on and could feel slight warmth (comparatively!) coming from the vents.

After a mile (about two minutes later) I was stopped at a light waiting to enter the highway ramp. My readings were Coolant 127 and Oil 48. The heater now felt very effective. The dashboard Oil Temp gauge had not budged off it's original baseline.

I got onto the highway and cruised at about 63 in 6th gear (2300 rpm). The oil and coolant temperatures continued to climb at a steady but unequal rate. After 6 miles the temperatures were Coolant 201, Oil 133. After 9 miles the temps were Coolant 199, Oil 162. I noticed that the Oil Gauge on the dashboard was a fraction of an inch above 160 and was accurate.

The oil temperature finally reached a maximum temperature of 205 after about 12 miles and then dropped to average 197 +-2F over the return trip. The Coolant was also 197 average with a 194 to 203 range. Verrry interesting.

The graph on the right was logged just as I noticed the oil temperature gauge begin to move. It shows an oil temperature of 162F.
 

Attachments

#34 ·
This morning I woke up to find it was zero F outside, and 14F in my garage where Ilsa had been hibernating, undriven, for a few weeks. I hooked up my Snap-On Solus Scanner and set it to graph four PID's, data streams from four sensors. They were rpm, engine oil temperature, coolant temperature in the cylinder head, and coolant temperature at the radiator outlet.

I was interested in comparing oil and coolant temperatures, and comparing their slopes to see what happens when.
Here's a summary of what the graphs show.

When I started the engine (it started instantly) the temperature values which displayed immediately showed the coolant at 17F and the oil at 36F. One of those two readings was incorrect and I suspected the oil temperature. I later found out that the minimum possible reading of the oil gauge was 36F, and that's what it showed.

I let the engine run about 90 seconds and backed it out of the garage and drove a mile through my neighborhood to the highway entrance. That took about two minutes. When I left the garage my readings were coolant 62F, Oil 36F (again, the lowest possible reading for the sensor). I had the heater on and could feel slight warmth (comparatively!) coming from the vents.

After a mile (about two minutes later) I was stopped at a light waiting to enter the highway ramp. My readings were Coolant 127 and Oil 48. The heater now felt very effective. The dashboard Oil Temp gauge had not budged off it's original baseline.

I got onto the highway and cruised at about 63 in 6th gear (2300 rpm). The oil and coolant temperatures continued to climb at a steady but unequal rate. After 6 miles the temperatures were Coolant 201, Oil 133. After 9 miles the temps were Coolant 199, Oil 162. I noticed that the Oil Gauge on the dashboard was a fraction of an inch above 160 and was accurate.

The oil temperature finally reached a maximum temperature of 205 after about 12 miles and then dropped to average 197 +-2F over the return trip. The Coolant was also 197 average with a 194 to 203 range. Verrry interesting.

The graph on the right was logged just as I noticed the oil temperature gauge begin to move. It shows an oil temperature of 162F.
Wow ... what an incredible detail ..... thanks for giving us this narrative of what happens on startup and why we should take it easy til appropriate operating temperature is achieved in warm or cold climates!
 
#39 ·
I don't think my 335 has ever been parked outside overnight in cold weather.

CA
 
#41 · (Edited)
It always kills me to see people gunning their cars when it's cold out to pull out in traffic/etc. I try my best to not put my self in that situation on cold mornings and am very anal about taking it easy while the car warms up. I"m fortunate that my garage is pretty well insulated and it rarely get's below 50 degree's even if it's in the teens out.

I really don't understand though why the engineers left the temp gauge out of the 328, at least MY2011? Because I am always curious about 8 miles into my drive/12-15 min of slow/moderate speeds if my baby is ready to hit the on ramp like a scalded cat.

Great post to read thru and especially the data gathered by DSX. Very cool! :thumbup:
 
#42 · (Edited)
Thanks, DSX! Some of my work commutes are 8 miles in total so, on those days, I'll be sure to take it easy especially during cold winter days.

Agree with "vanos" that omitting the oil temp gauge in the 328 was a bad decision.

Now as promised, I have attached a short goat caring video to continue furthering our collective knowledge in this important discipline. The "clear bright eyes" comment is of essential importance, I am considering LUX angel eyes, afterall! ;)

 
#47 ·
Thanks DSX! Always appreciate your expertise on this forum.I too have always been old school about engine warming, and mntx in general.
I am, however, a little confused by your "Radiators do NOT cool the coolant!" comment. Do you mean they only cool the water content of the fluid?
Can you elaborate on that a bit more?
Thanks!
G.E.
 
#49 ·
Thanks DSX! Always appreciate your expertise on this forum.I too have always been old school about engine warming, and mntx in general.
I am, however, a little confused by your "Radiators do NOT cool the coolant!" comment. Do you mean they only cool the water content of the fluid?
Can you elaborate on that a bit more?
Thanks!
G.E.
It was a bit of hyperbole. I'll back up a bit. As you know the coolant itself does not actually cool anything. What it is is a medium for transporting excess heat from where you don't want it (the engine) to where you can dump off the heat (the radiator). There are different "coolants" used by your engine when you define a coolant as I did. For instance the engine oil is a very efficient coolant, the air blowing over the engine removes heat, and inside the exhaust valves is sodium which liquifies at high temps and transports heat from the face of the valve to the valve seat and the stem.

Engineers would love to make an all ceramic engine that runs at 600F or even higher. It would be much more efficient; pollution would be reduced and mpg would take a big bump upwards. But that's not going to happen anytime in the near future. They instead have settled on 195 to 200F as the optimum average engine temperature to accomplish what they must and still not cook the paint off the hood or melt seals, belts and hoses.

So...the coolant leaves the engine around 197F and goes to the radiator where sufficient heat is removed to allow the engine to stay in the 197 vicinity. The radiator could really cool the coolant down to near ambient air temp but that would be too cool for the engine and result in the engine temperature running way too low. People who have removed the thermostat have experienced this first hand. No heat from the heater!

When I said the radiator doesn't "cool" the coolant I was exxagerating. What it does is reduce the coolant's temperature only enough to ensure that the engine temperature stays in the designed range. We have smart thermostats and smart electric water pumps controlled by smart software that ensure the radiator does as little or as much as it has to.
 
#48 ·
Yesterday, after pretty good rains here in So Cal, I went to start my car in the morning. It struggled and chugged and you could here the waste gates rattling and can flap going nuts. It sounded like it would die. I turned it off and started it again. Same thing. Prior to this it had been struggling a little on cold starts then steadied out after warming up then good all day. Service engine light came on. I hooked up my code reader and got misfire codes on cylinders 1,2,3, and 4. I let it run an eventually it warmed up and drove around fine for the day (Sunday and couldn't go to dealer). This morning I started it and it was a little rough but not as bad and smoothed out when warm. Got same codes. Drove it to work and Check Engine light turned off! Codes also disappeared...??? Anyway, took it to dealer tonight and got loaner as it still lurches around when starting cold. Anyway, it definitely starts better when weather is warmer vs. cold. I have 30K on it. SA said probably bad injectors. Will find out tomorrow. Could it just be software? These engines are finicky. Have JB4 installed but hardly ever use it and have it off most of the time due to needing to warm it up first. Did not have it on while all this was happening and made sure it was off at dealer. Will report back asap.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top